Sixteen:Nine - All Digital Signage, Some Snark

Chris Johns, PassageWay

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

The UK startup PassageWay operates with the interesting mission of using technology that nudges people to make well-informed and more sustainable decisions about how they get from A to B.

That's done by thinking through and developing the presentation layer for Real-Time Passenger Information content that's then run on digital signs, most notably for the bus systems around the city of London.

PassageWay's business model is - in simple terms - taking the rich, real-time data available for routes and stops and making it presentable and digestible for transport authorities, like Transport For London, which pays the start-up to do so.

The logical notion is that the more that good, real-time information is made available to people, the more the transport services will be used. While London Underground stations are well-equipped with information and the services are pretty predictable, there's not as much available to the millions who use less-predictable surface transport services like the iconic double-decker red buses.

I had a good chat about all this recently with PassageWay co-founder Chris Johns.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Chris, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me what PassageWay is all about? 

Chris Johns: Thanks so much for inviting us to your podcast today. PassageWay is all about generating demand for public transport by leveraging real-time information. We do this by putting it onto digital signs that are displayed on host-supplied screens and typically these screens only require a modern browser to display the digital sign. 

You made a point of saying the host supplied. There's been a history through the years of companies who've done things like put in the infrastructure, the screens, and so on and then run content on them with the idea that content would be Interrupted so to speak by advertising. You're not going down that path. 

Chris Johns: No, we're not. Typically those sorts of plays are similar to JC Decaux or Clear Channel who have long had this relationship with transport authorities whereby they will fund the deployment of bus shelters in return for an ad revenue share. We supply transport for London with digital signs that are displayed at bus shelters but also within their other infrastructure like bus stations. But really we're more citywide about putting digital signs into places such as schools, hospitals, workplaces, offices, and such in order to generate demand from the sort of non-traditional locations and encouraging the people within those locations to consider public transport.

So this doesn't sound like a traditional business, you said, this is about generating demand to use public transport services and so on versus, more traditionally, this is about making money somehow or other. 

Chris Johns: Yeah. I think that's the difference, a lot of those traditional plays actually put the real-time information secondary to their primary objective which is to earn revenue from the display of ads.

And to my mind, that means a poor customer experience and the poor customer experience means reduced demand. If you think about traditional bus shelters, they are actually incredibly complex for many people trying to navigate the public transport information.

If you're coming to London, for example, trying to find out which is the right bus? Is it going to go to your preferred stop? How long is it going to take? Is there any disruption information? If you don't have it, it will make you want to go and choose a different mode of transport.

So, you probably take a taxi or you may end up using your own car, for example. Actually what we're trying to do is to show people that public transport is really easy to use. It's really accessible. It can get you from A to B pretty fast. And if you're aware of the onward travel information from the stop you're trying to get to, then actually, you can make the whole journey much easier and less stressful, for many people.

So this almost seems like a community initiative but there is a business model behind this, right? 

Chris Johns: Yeah, there is. The business model is pretty straightforward, to be honest. We are paid by the transport authority or their contract partners and our job is to provide these digital signs and the digital signs generate demand. So in a different way of thinking, you might consider the real time information as being the best form of advertising for public transport.

Certainly better than a static advert, in my opinion, anyway. 

Your company's efforts are to aggregate the data, make sure it's handled accurately and always up to date, and so on. Why would transport for London not do that themselves? 

Chris Johns: Yeah, they do. Transport for London is the world's largest integrated transport network and they have the global leading data strategy.

And they're famed the world over for their open API strategy. That means we can access their data and we pretty much have unfettered use of that data. And so do many other developers as well and we can Be sure that the data we've got is true and accurate. What we do is that we take that information and we plot it around a particular location and we bring it together with a legible London-style wayfinding map, where we plot the access points onto it and then we bring it all together into a sort of nice looking digital sign that's easy to understand and act upon. 

So we're not generating data or we're not modifying data, all we're doing is bringing data together into an easy-to-understand format. 

So you're doing the presentation layer that in theory, transport for London could do themselves but you're good at it.

it's not what they want to focus on. So they're happy to work with you to do that part of it. 

Chris Johns: That's right. Yeah. We are a supplier to TFL and they use lots of other different tech suppliers whether it's to build their award winning TFL go app or to build bus shelters whatever it may be. They have lots of different suppliers bringing their individual skill sets into play and that's basically what we do.

But I think that one of the things that we do bring to the party because we're a tech startup is innovation and the ability to pivot quickly and come up with sort of entrepreneurial new ideas that we can bring into play and throw them out to TFL and say, listen, what do you think about this?

And so we can move quite quickly. 

Did you have to go to them to sell into this or is your company kind of a result of being in discussions with them and starting the company because this opportunity existed?

Chris Johns: It's a mix between the two actually. So TFL actually issued a tender some time ago that we want to produce the platform and we've taken it on from there and given it a life of its own and extended the service beyond London as well. So working with other transport authorities and other partners outside of London. 

So this is audio, so it makes it a little difficult to visualize things. But can you give me some sense of how this manifests itself within the transport system? And then in public and private buildings. 

Chris Johns: Okay. I'll give you a couple of examples. For example, in every bus station across London, there are digital totems. And those digital totems are a bit like an airport or a train station where you've got a central totem and it shows all the services where they're going and whereabouts within the bus station they're leaving from and if there's any disruptions.

So we look after all of those for London. Another example would be smart bus shelters, whereby you could have a large format digital screen with detailed route maps for each of the services that are running via that bus shelter with real time information on all those routes plotted not on a fixed JPEG of a route but actually plotted live onto a legible London style map.

With onward time estimation to reach all the onward stops, onward travel information such as the tube status, any disruption notifications and more so that people can quite easily contextualize their journey and see if it's going to be running smoothly all the way through. Another example, could be at a bus stop itself.

So across London, there are about 18,000 bus stops and only about 2000 bus shelters. So only about 2000 of these locations have any real time information. So what we can do for those ones is put in QR codes and customers can scan the QR codes and open up a real time digital sign on their personal device with no registration, no login, no heavy download.

It's just a purely web based solution that shows all the upcoming departures for that particular stop with detailed route information, onward stop information et cetera and then links to download the official apps. So it's like an interstitial page where it's easy for everyone to access. Hopefully you're going to convert more people into downloading the official apps.

Now the official app is the TFL official app or yours? 

Chris Johns: No, we don't do apps. I'm afraid.

One of the points about what we're doing is about trying to make everything as open and as accessible as possible. So there is no registration, there's no login, there's no download. All you need Is a modern web browser and you can access the information. We don't ask anything from the customers.

We don't track them. We don't do anything really about that. 

Yeah. That's one of the problems when you go to an unfamiliar city and you decide I'm going to use their transport system. You go to the app store to find the app for the mass transport system in that city. And there's five or six of them and you don't know which one is official or which one's riddled with ads or not updated or God knows what.

Chris Johns: Yeah. In London, I can't really speak for other cities because our primary focus is London, that's our area of expertise. But there are hundreds of thousands of people who are digitally excluded. People who don't have smartphones at all and then there is a whole another segment that are extremely low digital users and I think in London, there's about 2 million of those, according to a Lloyd's report.

You've got about 2.5 million people that are not going to be using smartphones or not downloading apps and you've got to provide real time information to those people because those are also a core audience for the transport authority because they tend to be looking at the demographic. They match perfectly the sort of TFL bus user type.

But at the moment they're somewhat excluded from the service or the latest developments of promoting those services. 

Is the focus more as a result on road transport, buses and so on, as opposed to the London underground? Because the underground has maps. It's got covered areas and everything else. It's easier to convey information. 

Chris Johns: That's right. Like train stations and tubes, they're fairly straightforward. You go onto the platform, you take a train going one way or the other way or if you go to a train station, it's all linear.

But if you're taking buses or you want to go get a bicycle, they're within the built environment itself. And they could be going pretty much any direction. And you really need to know where the best location is for you to find your particular service and then how long you're going to wait and if there's any problems with that particular service.

Also the other thing is that the tube services are linear again. They're always getting the district line, for example and are always going to go to those particular routes, one way or the other. They might stop slightly earlier but generally, they're always going to follow that same path.

And if you wait one minute, then the next one's coming along for two or three minutes. So what we do is that we just show on the tube status. We show if there's any problems on any particular line. And then we say all of the lines are running fine, which is the sort of TFL standard approach to displaying the statements 

Yeah. This year I've spent a couple of weeks in London, doing interviews and then I was there semi holidaying as well and I was struck by the amount of real time information that you could get on. I was taking the Elizabeth line more than anything else and it was terrific in terms of telling me, I definitely don't want to go on the Circle line right now.

Chris Johns: Yes. the Northern line. 

The really old ones.

Chris Johns: Yeah, some of them are better than others, to be honest. Also you've got to pick the right one. It's freezing in London at the moment and some of them have heating and some of them don't. Like in the summer, some of them have air con and some of them don't as well. We don't flag that as much. I couldn't tell you offhand which ones are which.

Toko on here is stifling. 

Chris Johns: Yeah. It could be useful information to many people.  

What you're doing is a little reminiscent of a US company called TransitScreen. 

Chris Johns: Yeah, I know. I've heard of TransitScreen.

Yeah. They would sell a service into a building and they would also layer in things like the availability of Rideshare, Dockless bikes. I'm not sure what their status is right now but probably scooters as well. Do you do any of that?

Chris Johns: Not at the moment. It is something that we are quite interested in.

But we are dependent on the data sources that are available to us. And obviously we are primarily funded by TFL as well. Our modus operandi is to really promote TFL services. When we've looked at it before there are Lime and Forest e-bikes for example, across London.

But they don't actually have an open API that we can access. The other thing I think separates us from the transit screen service, I think they've rebranded actually now. But I think they don't tend to have maps or contextual maps on their screens. They tend to be very linear in terms of saying information is available on this particular site type of service at this particular place.

And that it's 500 meters where you have to go and work out which direction it is, whereas in London, we've got what's called the legible London wayfinding scheme. So across London, you find all these Totems which are just flat totems, they're not real time information.

But they've got localized maps with all the local highlights on it. So, there's a sort of native way of expecting maps and how they should appear to people as they're moving through the built environment that we've tried to replicate.

Ultimately, what we'd like to do is to take over those totems and convert them from being static information locations to being real time digital totems with wayfinding public transport information and other information as well. 

I suspect the barriers, there are steady advances in e-paper.

As that gets better versus using LCD or things like that require a lot of energy to be visible in daylight. 

Chris Johns: Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head there or bleakly by saying, really the issue is cost and technology. There are hundreds of legible London totems around London.

Not all of them have power nearby and the cost to convert each and every one of them would be very substantial but if we can bring in as technology advances and things become cheaper, solar power and other sort of lower energy burn options come into play then that's where we're hoping that there's an opportunity.

So, I think I saw you guys have your offices or technical location and the Battersea area. If the Battersea power station which is now a kind of a multi use mall and other things, wanted to put your content on a large screen in their main access areas, would they need to do what's involved?

Chris Johns: It's really quite straightforward. They just need to install a screen of any particular size, it can be small or super large. We put a 75 inch screen into an office complex, Paternoster Square, just a week or so ago. But you can go for pretty much any size screen.

The larger ones tend to be ethernet connected rather than Wi Fi connected. As long as that screen has browser capability then we can deploy a digital sign onto it. And it will be suitable for displaying both small scale and large scale. So you could have it within a stadium. If you've been to the power station, they've got the huge sort of warehouse-y style engine rooms there which are now full of shops but you could put one at the end of one of those engine rooms and it would look fantastic. 

Yeah. I was there three-four months ago. It's a great reworking of that building. Outside they could really use wayfinding but that's somebody else's problem. 

Chris Johns: Yeah. Also there's boats there as well. So Uber has taken over the boats in London. So, unfortunately they no longer provide data onto the TFL data feed.

And so we're trying to work with them to get data from them. But at the moment, they're not included within the TFL API feed.

I'm understanding this correctly, there's a URL per geo-specific site. 

Chris Johns: That's right. 

And if it was a digital sign in a building that was also showing, if we're using the Battersea Power Station as an example, also showing sales promotions for some of the retail tenants, could your information be scheduled in or does it need to be on there full time?

Chris Johns: No, it doesn't need to be full-time. Obviously, we're very aware that digital screens need to pay for themselves and often that's through advertising. Our content can be part of a playlist and run for 15-20 seconds every 40 seconds or whatever the host decides is best.

So, we're working on another project at the moment which is actually something very similar to that, whereby the content will rotate with other content about walking routes, heritage and other information that takes to a particular place. Because obviously, public transport information is not the only thing that's of interest to people as they're moving through the built environment.

But it's one of the time sensitive things that is important to them. 

Because it's web based information, is it responsive?

Chris Johns: Yeah, We do smartphone friendly signs as well but usually they're going to be QR code based. So, someone will scan a QR code and then it will open up a smartphone or other personal device friendly version.

Some of the other signs that we've designed particularly for larger format digital signage screens.

So what I've seen examples of was a portrait mode screen but you could do a landscape screen, no problem. 

Chris Johns: Oh yeah. We've got loads of them. It's roughly 50-50 at the moment in terms of deployment between landscape and portrait.

I don't really have a preference. I think they look good. I think the one we put in last week into Paternoster Square was a portrait and I think it looks really quite nice in portrait style. 

And have you done the design and everything to mirror or parrot the transport for London colors and so on?

Chris Johns: We've built it to meet the TFL brand guidelines. So that was very important. Obviously, because we're paid by TFL and the map is styled to look as close as possible to the legible London guidelines but without copying it. We use a service called Mapbox to do that which allows us to play with the layers and the design of the layers on the maps very efficiently.

And we actually did a project for Melbourne as well, Transport for Victoria in Australia where we came up with a similar whole range of concepts for Melbourne and again using their sort of legible Melbourne guidelines or Transport for Victoria guidelines with their branding and their mapping as well.

So is there a consulting wing to what you do as well? 

Chris Johns: Basically we can provide just consulting but really what we're hoping to do is to build long term relationships with transport authorities where we can deploy the platform, make the signs available across their estate and out to their community.

And if that option is available to us then we'll do the consulting bundled into a longer term agreement with them. 

But it's not fundamental to your offer? 

Chris Johns: No. No, not at all. 

My next question is, are you working outside of London? So you're in Australia.

Are you elsewhere as well?

Chris Johns: So, we're one of the winners of a global innovation tender for Transport for Victoria and we developed a whole range of concepts for them. Unfortunately, their data wasn't quite a state as yet to enable the concepts to be deployed. So that one very much watches this space.

We've also had discussions with others, both, in Europe and also in North America as well. We're quite keen on working internationally. I think on the international side, we're much better when we work with a bigger technology partner. So, usually with transport authority tenders, they put them out there and there's big organizations which pitch for them. We're typically too small to pitch for them but we can go in with those larger organizations and bring that element of innovation and entrepreneurialism and some design to give them an extra edge in their tender over and above everyone else.

So you might be going with an IBM or somebody like that? 

Chris Johns: Yeah. The big one in America is VIX Technology and they're a nice bunch of guys. But we've also partnered previously with Trapeze which is in the UK. And also, there's a one in the UK who we work with very well called True Form Engineering as well.

We've done stuff with them both in London and outside of London as well. 

You mentioned at the start that you're working with the London authority which has a world reputation for its data API and everything else. And you also mentioned that Melbourne isn't quite at the same level. Is that a big challenge when you look at other jurisdictions?

Chris Johns: Yeah, totally. Basically, the world is changing and it's changing very rapidly. The data is becoming less of a problem. But one of the problems that remains is the cost of data which means that actually using our service may be prohibitive to smaller towns or organizations outside of London.

With the CFL API, we have free Access to that but if it was outside of London, for example, in Bristol, then we would have to partner with a third party data provider. And there are a small number of those that can provide that service. But it's not free and their costs are extensive.

And then we have to layer our costs on top of that and it may be that for that transport authority which they look at that and say, we can't do that sort of cost at the moment. Indeed somewhere Bristol actually used to have their own API and then took it offline.

Because they said, we can't justify the cost of maintaining this open API strategy which to my mind is insane because surely the biggest way of generating demand for public transport authority is telling people what services there are there. And you can only do that if you've got real time information.

So if you suddenly say to all the developers and even your own services, we're not going to have an API anymore. It just means that you're going to have a natural impact on demand. 

I don't know if this is a simple answer or way too involved to even get into but I'm curious if I'm a transport authority, let's say in Kansas city, Missouri, Winnipeg, Manitoba, or Munich, Germany.

Do you need the shape and structure of data to make this workable? 

Chris Johns: It’s what we call a JSON API and then documentation around it and we'll take it from there. So, most of the APIs follow a common standard these days and we can work with any of them, really.

We've not done any multi-language so digital sign designs as yet. So we do need to consider the elements of user experience for trying to work in something like Japanese, for example, would be challenging for us at the moment because we'd have to consider how they interpret information which is different to how we might interpret information in the UK.

But somewhere like Missouri and Munich would be fairly straightforward for us. 

Okay. So if people want to know more about your organization, where do they find you? 

Chris Johns: So the best thing to do is to look at our website, which is at passage-way.com, or connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm quite chatty on LinkedIn, and I post a fair amount, and also the company is on LinkedIn as well.

That's how I found you. 

Chris Johns: Yeah, and the more the merrier, really. 

All right. Chris, thank you very much for spending some time with me. 

Chris Johns: Thank you. Have a great day.

 

Eric Henry, Carousel Digital Signage

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

A LOT of digital signage software companies have identified education as a key vertical market, but very few have the history, experience and platform for education like Carousel Digital Signage, which got into the business in 1997 because of an ask from a public school system.

I had a really good chat, one that flew by, with Eric Henry, the president of Carousel, which is the digital signage side of a larger Minneapolis company called Tightrope Media Systems. The Tightrope side of the business focuses on broadcast.

In our chat, Eric and I get into the opportunities and challenges of working with K-12 schools, what typically goes in, and the types of content that help create a sense of community. He has some interesting thoughts about taking marketer's approach to messaging in schools, and getting beyond the predictable.

We also touch towards the end on the higher ed market, which has some core similarities in terms of need, but is also quite different.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Eric, thank you for joining me. Happy New Year.

Eric Henry: Happy New Year. 

I've done a podcast in the past with your colleague, JJ, but it's been a few years. For those who don't know much about Carousel, can you give me the background? I know that you grew out of tightrope media systems. Some people will know that, but others won't. You've been around since 1997, maybe not you personally but the company. 

Eric Henry: Yeah, correct. Personally, I haven't been at the company since 97, but I've certainly been around since 1997. But yeah, Carousel started out as Tightrope Media Systems, actually still a division of Tightrope Media Systems. 

So there are two divisions of the company, Carousel, which is the digital signage group and then Cablecast, which is actually our community television broadcast, part of the company and so I actually run the Carousel business.

We did start in 97. 1996-97, It's debatable in terms of paperwork and those types of things, but after a long time, it actually came out of the education space. So, our first customer was Wayzata Public Schools in Minnesota for Carousel some 26 years ago, and we've been in that space for quite a long time. Obviously signage lends to many other vertical markets, so we are certainly in other verticals but our founder story is rooted in the education space 

And going way back to the late nineties, what was a school district looking for at that point? And is it pretty much what they're looking for today?

Eric Henry: Quite a bit different today. So back in the late nineties, there were certainly much more tube televisions and we could update lunch menus and those types of things and that was really very early days of putting content on screens that wasn't broadcast. 

So that was really the early days where schools were looking for a solution that wasn't really hard because there were only a couple of things that could actually put content on screens but they were fairly prohibitive because a lot of them were designed for much more retail, graphic intensive folks and not necessarily teachers.

Right. Yeah. I remember back to the mid to late nineties, there were early-stage quasi digital out of home companies that were in the business of going to school districts and schools in general and saying, Hey, we'll put a TV in the classrooms of your school and you can run school messaging on there.

But by the way, there's going to be advertising there too, to pay for the technology. That's a model that didn't work. 

Eric Henry: No, it did not. And I think we've really been trying to find our way as an industry, for quite a long time. If you look at the early days, I remember being at a trade show and there were two higher eds from the same state.

And I asked them why they wanted to do a digital signage project and the answer was basically because the other one was going to do it. So, that's not a very compelling reason, nor is that really a sustainable industry. If we don't really understand what the value is that we're going to bring, why are we doing this thing?

And I think that has really been a long journey for us and we've been searching and wrestling with that question. We did a signage project because it was cool and because nobody else was doing it or because we wanted to put something on these new flat panel displays we wanted to buy but it's very different now in terms of what's important and what schools are thinking about when they're putting content on screens.

And what a K-12 environment does versus what a higher ed environment does can be very different, correct? 

Eric Henry: They can be the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal is the same. How you reach that goal may look a bit different, right? In a K-12 versus a higher ed. I would say one of the major things, so the thing that is the same, what we see and this is true for any organization, our corporate customers as well in the retail space. This idea that people feel connected to their community, like the heart of us, is what we can do to give an organization tools to keep their people connected.

Ironically, we're suggesting more use of technology but using technology to actually bring people together in a relationship face to face. So the more that people are aware of what's happening within their school and things they can participate in. So extracurricular clubs or the sports scores from last night from the football team or the auditions for the play coming up. Those types of things or recognizing people within their community is really creating more sense of community through visual communication is really at the core of what K-12s do and higher eds do.

Now it varies a little bit. Higher ed, for example, the big challenge is getting students on campus and getting students registered for classes and those types of things. So the campus visits weekends and promotes what that university has to offer. So it is a bit more of a marketing tool for prospective students and those types of things, when you're trying to attract them to campus.

And then the signage becomes a tool that says, Hey, you're in the residence hall, just so you know, seven o'clock on Thursday, this math club is meeting or you can go into the writing lab and get a review of your paper. So, that is how across education it is creating community and creating awareness of all the services and things that we're providing to help you be successful.

So, let's talk first about K-12. What does that environment or what does the build typically look like for a school within a larger school district? And I guess I'm also asking, do you sell to a school district or is it school by school?

Eric Henry: We certainly have had both approaches. So in the K-12 space, what is interesting is it really depends on the district.

And now there are districts that have standardized on the Google ecosystem. There are school districts that have standardized on the Apple ecosystem and there are school districts that actually split between Google ecosystem and primary grades and Apple for higher secondary schools. So, in terms of environments that we see, we see typically a Google or an Apple environment or a mixed environment between those two, sometimes Microsoft. 

So does that matter to you? 

Eric Henry: It matters a little bit in terms of how we're thinking about a deployment, not a ton to us directly at the Carousel.

We obviously have to be mindful of customers' choices, right? So, there are certainly relationships that we have that are more ingrained or stronger or support devices that we have. We do have opinions around what devices we feel work best but if you've already made device choices, as Carousel, we need to work to support those devices. So with that said…

In a Chrome OS environment. 

Eric Henry: Yes. But the qualifier on that environment, is it to the same level of support and performance as the Apple ecosystem or the BrightSign ecosystem? No. They run on Chrome but we don't invest top tier resources in terms of making sure that's the prime environment.

And honestly, because we don't have a lot of customers running on Chrome. That's what it comes down to for us. So as far as a K-12, what we see most often is common area signage and so not necessarily in the classroom. So when you ask a school, Hey, are you doing digital signage?

They would say, yes, we have five devices in common areas. So in each of the main hallways or however they break out their building. Sometimes they've had it at a district but many times it started at one school because there was a champion within a school. Sometimes we have a district that has three or four different solutions.

Some every once in a while, we have district-wide initiatives and we prefer that because whether you're going with us or a competitor, we think it makes more sense to think about your communication strategy more holistically. So it's a little bit challenging if you have three or four different solutions.

And I would say we see more individual schools choosing than we see full districts choosing. We've seen mostly common areas and sometimes, Hey, can we do something in the lunchroom? And what we've really tried to encourage schools to be thinking about is how can we get into the classroom? beyond the common areas because the reality is when I observed my kids in school they're cruising through the hallway as quickly as they can to get to class. So, there wasn't a lot of dwell time in common areas unless you're at lunch. So how can we get into the classroom in a way that's affordable? 

And that's been a big challenge over the years with the devices that we have and especially the mix. As I mentioned, there's Google and there's Apple. There's also Lots of other devices that we see in the classroom. We have Immersive, we have Screenbeam, all these other multi-purpose devices that we see in classrooms, we've really tried to think about how we can lean in and support that.

And I've wondered about the other devices like Immersive and Screenbeam and Zoom rooms and so on. There seems to be a marketing effort for the schools to have this in their classrooms because you can not only use it for collaboration and teaching and so on but in downtimes, it can be used as digital signage messaging, a kind of screensaver-ish mode.

But I've wondered, does that actually happen? 

Eric Henry: No. The short answer is no. The reality is it's cost-prohibitive. So if we wanna get into a little bit of where we're going as a Carousel. When you look at school districts, a K-12 or a higher ed, they have to be very mindful of their budgets and how we as digital signage manufacturers, CMS providers have priced our products historically.

You have a dedicated media player and we price per media player. So anytime we go to a classroom environment, you start talking about a 100 or 200 or 500 per school, which pretty quickly gets the school district out of the budget. So this is where as Carousel, we've backed it up.

And so talking about what is a K-12 or a higher ed trying to accomplish. I did have an opportunity to go and meet with a bunch of higher ed leaders and really hear from them what their struggle is and what they're trying to do and overwhelmingly the theme was, Hey, kids don't read emails, kids aren't engaged.

They don't really know what's going on. How can we reach these kids? That's the question they had for us and how can you be part of helping us with that? And the interesting thing is there's already like 15 ways we can communicate with people, right? We have Slack teams, all the different higher ed little solutions for back and forth communications with students like Patio and all these other ones and we have digital signage and we have Moodle and Blackboard and all these others learning management systems. 

So thinking about all of those things, I backed up and none of those higher ed leaders were saying, boy, the thing that I really need is digital signage. It's going to solve all of my problems and so that was very clear to us. So when we started asking the question, what does my overall communication strategy look like as a higher ed leader?

What do I think about my communications as campaigns? Like retailers think about marketing campaigns. Here's all the places I'm going to place this campaign. Here's when I'm going to place it. Here's who needs to see it. Here's the call to action. When we start thinking about communication for a higher ed or a K-12 in that way, we understand that signage is one part of that much bigger communication.

And it moved us to this idea of let's think more about the audience that we're communicating with than the number of devices they're necessarily on. So, as far as where we're going in the future, we're going to a K-12 or in a higher ed and saying, you need to communicate within your classrooms to all of your students.

And you identify your student body as one audience. You should have an audience feed for students and if you need to communicate with parents, that should be a different audience that you're thinking about and even switching the value proposition of carousel and how we price based on that concept of saying, how many audiences, unique messages do you need to create to meet with your people?

And don't worry so much about whether that's a 1000 people or 5,000 people thinking about what audience you have because the interesting thing about signage and the way that it's always been is the more successful you as an organization are, the more expensive it is for you, right? And when we want to switch that, we want to say, look, we want the Carousel to be really helpful in actually accomplishing the thing that you're trying to do, right? 

You want students on campus, you want them to feel connected, you want them to be successful. So the more people that know what's going on and the more people that see that information, the more successful you're going to be.

And I don't want you worrying about what that costs you. I want you to go, okay. I know that I want to target my freshmen, my sophomores, my juniors and my seniors with unique messages. So Carousel, we need four feeds. Cool. How many people are actually consuming that feed? Hopefully a bunch, because you'll feel like you got a lot of value out of those feeds.

And so that's how we're looking at solving that classroom problem and it sets us up for some other things that we're thinking about going beyond the screens on walls. It's still necessary. I think seeing that message and a dedicated screen on a wall is absolutely important.

Seeing it in the classroom is important. Seeing it on other devices and web pages and screensavers is also really important. So we're trying to think much more holistically about how we are thinking about our communication campaign and all the places that should show up

So, if capital budgets and operating budgets are an issue, as they certainly would be in most school districts and the schools aren't really multipurpose these other devices like the Immersive and so on for digital signage, how do you make all this happen? 

Eric Henry: Well many times. We rarely see a net new from zero signage project, right?

They're making a big capital outlay for screens and for devices and so oftentimes it is, how can we take the investment you've already made? and enhance it and leverage it for new purposes. So for us, very often, we are going into a school district or we're coming alongside an LG or a Screenbeam or BrightSign or whoever that already have these deployments and saying, how can we make this deployment better? Because you're already using this device for something else. So, that's where we as Carousel come in and say, this is how we're going to price this thing. Sometimes these multipurpose devices are just playing a URL.

And so if the classroom signage communication is simple. It's very easy to do if it's a little lighter weight and as Carousel, it's more about providing the thought leadership and helping them strategize what they're trying to do in their organization and think about the inventory of all the devices that you have and what are the things which we can support, what an additional investment might you need to have as well to make this happen in a big way.

Then by the way, we have to make sure that it's simple enough for you to administer so that you're not hiring staff because nobody has the ability to hire staff just to manage signage networks. So that's how we think about it. Okay, 

So you got to educate the educators.

One thing that I've seen come out in press releases here and there, I'm thinking in particular of Rise Vision that focuses a lot on K-12 is the use of students to do the content creation and actually in some cases, manage the screen networks within schools.

And when you start thinking in terms of a marketer and taking a marketer's approach to communication which makes perfect sense to me, that's not necessarily a mindset or a skill set that a 16 year old kid who knows their way around motion graphics has much experience in.

Eric Henry: Yeah, I think I love that direction because it's not just for the content creator kids, it's also for the tech kids who can manage the network. And so for us, we're working on some things that will come out later this year to really encourage, close to my heart is, diversity in tech.

One of the challenges with diversity in tech is that we don't have a diverse population of people to even hire to come to our company and so what I would love to do is move into the middle school, high school age of kids and encourage them to experience tech, event management of devices and configuration and those types of things.

On the back end, especially in areas that are much more diverse than we are here in Minnesota and so we're looking at things that we can do as a carousel to incite much more of that activity. I applaud what Rise Vision is doing because I think it's the same heart that we have, which is how we can get these kids engaged and getting their hands on things and thinking about things early.

Now, are they always going to know what to do and how to get it right? Not necessarily and so we have all the tools within the Carousel to do that in a pretty safe way where there's content approval workflows, there people don't get to post things directly to the signage network and so you'd have a teacher or an administrator checking their work and making sure they're not doing crazy stuff but I think that's absolutely important, like hands-on learning is valuable and getting kids a taste of, am I interested in communications? Do I want to create the video that goes on the signage? That's pretty cool. So, I absolutely love that direction. 

Yeah. Giving logins to a group of 16 year old boys terrifies me. 

Eric Henry: Yeah. You definitely have to make sure that your system is locked down and that your users are set up correctly, for sure.

So when you're taking this marketing centric approach and getting material up in common areas and ideally in the classroom as well. What are those messages that really seem to work well? Beyond the obvious things like, congratulations to the team for winning the local football championship or its hamburger Friday.

. 

Eric Henry: Yeah, those are certainly the core things. I would say that student wellness has been a pretty significant area of focus. 

What do you mean by that? 

Eric Henry: What I mean by that is, around student wellness in the U. S. there's some discussion around social emotional learning is another term that they would use.

So, student wellness being, are you experiencing anxiety? Here's how to prepare for tests here. Hey, the emergency drill is coming up in two weeks. Preparing students, especially, coming back from the pandemic and kids not being in that routine. Trying to help with all of the things that students are wrestling with, Hey, here are the support services we have as a school available to you as a student, here's how to prepare for a test.

A lot of those. So when we talk about student wellness, their mental and their physical health, like really thinking about those types of things providing content. We actually interviewed some different teachers and administrators and found that they were spending a pretty significant amount of time trying to go and find that content online to put on their signage networks.

And so we actually hired some people to help develop that content professionals in that space to provide to schools, whether they were a Carousel customer or not. Just say, Hey, if this is helpful to you, here's anti bullying campaigns, here are things around deep breathing or other things and this is not my area of expertise but just giving you a flavor of the types of things that what we're hearing from schools are a lot of kids were anxious, a lot of kids were struggling, a lot of kids were acting out when they came back from the pandemic.

So how can we be helpful in even the messaging that they're seeing on screens? And so a lot of soft messaging I would say around, what do we want to recognize as a community?

A lot of recognition stuff around, in primary grades especially. At our schools, they call them the wow awards. What are you exhibiting the values of the school? And we're going to celebrate Caleb, the first grader who showed kindness, those types of things. Reinforcing what we want our community to be about.

And does an individual school have to have a champion, they have to assign whether it's a teacher or somebody in the front office staff or whoever who's going to manage this thing? 

Eric Henry: Typically that works best. And this is true in education, in corporate, in retail, in healthcare, in every vertical, when we start talking about a signage network, the first assumption is we're going to have one person do all of this stuff, right?

Or two people and it's going to be highly centralized and that reasonably quickly becomes not sustainable. So back to the Genesis of Carousel and understanding who we were building the product for in the late nineties has always been part of, we have to make sure of the complex as this becomes and at enterprise scale that individual people can still manage their little world.

So fundamental to Carousel is how can we keep the user experience simple? If I'm a district and if I log in, I can't see other schools because I already don't know where I'm supposed to go.

Architecting your signage system in a way that I log in and I only see the two or three things that are relevant to me is very important.

You may have a champion at a school but you may have really targeted things like, Here's the PTA groups log in, here community educations log in for after school and they can only do certain things in certain zones and here's the administration from the principal's office and they're responsible for school wide messaging.

So we encourage the school or the district to really, let's start with your initial scope and think about who's going to own it and where are you going to get the content from? And then let's go from there but understand that all the tools exist for you to really break it down. So even as we were talking about students earlier, this is how you would use the carousel in a safe way for students.

And sometimes the safe way has to be for teachers too. Not because they're trying to do something malicious but because they might not know how to use a signage network. So for us, always the goal is how can we make this as simple and dynamic as possible? Some schools, the Carousel is the collector of all of the other information systems.

Here's an RSS feed of the sports scores. Here's what we're getting for the lunch menus from another system and just consuming stuff from other places and putting it together in a way that is useful and is highlighting the most important things that's really valuable because now I don't have somebody constantly trying to feel like they have to maintain yet another system 

In the same way that in the business world for workplace communications and so on, the last four or five years have seen an explosion in the ability to use API's to tap into real time data and general data from business systems.

Does that work within school districts? Are there data sources available to you? And are they useful? 

Eric Henry: Certainly. The thing that's a little bit challenging in the education space is probably the most valuable information system to tap into is the student information system. At the same time, you have to be very careful about that.

It's like in healthcare, like patient information. There are pretty natural things that you would connect to in a school. The things that are interesting I think are more on the content creation side, let's take Google Slides or Canva or those types of tools that schools are already using. I think those are probably more pertinent in the education space, certainly than they are in the commercial space.

They are fairly common, Hey, let's go grab the sports scores or grab a thing off our website or those types of integrations that are pretty lightweight but more than anything is probably like, can I grab my Google slides content that I made as a teacher and put it over here? So that's a little bit different. Corporate is much more, give me Power BI dashboards and hard data and those types of things. 

The difficulty in schools is there's not like a Power BI and everybody uses it type thing in education and so we have to be a little more flexible in terms of, Hey, can you get it in RSS and consume it? It's hard to build APIs for everything that's out there. 

Time is flying here but I wanted to quickly cover off as well the distinction between K-12 and higher ed because K-12 the students have to go and they go in their neighborhood or in their general area. But with higher ed, a lot of what's going on is about recruitment, right? Whether it's for athletes or non-athletes students.

Eric Henry: Certainly. So in the higher ed space, I think one of our customers that uses Carousel pretty significantly is the University of Minnesota right here in our backyard and they have the 3M innovation lab and they're highlighting all of the innovation and the things that they're doing throughout the world.

They're highlighting things like green buildings that are carbon neutral and all the stats of the building. So you'll see much more in higher ed space, I would say, much more around thought leadership and why you should come to this university, how well you're going to be supported here in certain areas.

And the beautiful thing about signage is it's flexible, so you can schedule everything. So, the higher ed will schedule things that if you have a campus visit weekend or you know that you're having incoming students, prospective students coming to campus, you can really target your messaging to all of that type of stuff.

Think about the possibilities of why we're an awesome university and all the resources available to you. Then when you get to regular campus life as people are coming back from break now, for example, now we can start talking about and here's all the things that we're doing right now.

Hey, remember students, this is the thing that's going on Thursday night. So you see things in residence halls that are reinforcing things that are happening on campus because students usually remember the thing that's right in front of them because they have so many things going on. So, that's what it looks like in higher ed versus… 

I think the wellness thing would be even more important or maybe not more important but as important as K-12 in higher ed because you've got particular first year students who maybe moved away from home and this is the first time on their own and they may be extroverts who are just right in there for party central but there'd be all kinds of young students who are a little a bit terrified and very lonely.

Eric Henry: Certainly. And it's interesting because the services available in a higher ed are a little bit different than in K-12, right? So the messaging around wellness and availability of those services looks a little different in higher ed but you're certainly right on point.

Again, reminding the students that there is actually a wellness center. There actually are places to go to work out. There are places to go to get counseling services within higher levels that you can sign up for. The university my kids attend, that's actually a free service on campus for them and they didn't know about it until they saw it. They were reminded of it and they didn't read the newsletter that the university sends out but they saw it seven times on the signage and then they actually went. So that's the idea.

It worked. All things are possible. Eric, thank you very much. That was great. We could have easily chatted for another 90 minutes, but try to cap these things at about half an hour and it's been terrific. 

Eric Henry: Yeah. I appreciate the opportunity. It was great chatting with you.

Meghan Athavale, LUMO Interactive

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Interactive floor projections and video walls have been around for well more than a decade now, but  there hasn't really been widespread adoption for a bunch of reasons - like cost, complication and the simple reality that a lot of what's been shown to date hasn't had much of a point.

A Canadian company, Lumo Interactive, is in a nice position to change all of that. The hardware is simple, the software is affordable and scalable, and the solution comes with some 300 templated content apps that help users tune the visual experience to the needs of the venue and audience. Instead of visual eye candy, these apps are  things like fun, engaging games.

The straightforward pitch for the product, LUMOplay, is that the software can make any digital display interactive. The top-end for the software side of the solution is $74 US a month, so it is very affordable. And the developers have put years of work into ensuring the set-ups are hyper-stable and can be managed remotely. We've all walked through flagship retail spaces and seen one-off experiential set-ups that were hung up or sitting unused because they were more about short term bling than ongoing usage.

The other interesting aspect of LUMOplay is that the main intended use-case is classrooms, with these interactive pieces used as a way to engage kids in schools, particularly kids who have sensory issues, autism or ADHD.

I had a great chat right before Christmas with Founder and CEO Meghan Athavale.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Meghan, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me what LUMO does, and is LUMOplay the product and LUMO Interactive the company? 

Meghan Athavale: Yes, LUMO Interactive is the company, LUMOplay is the product, and what we do is we make it easy to scale large-scale interactive digital experiences. These are experiences on digital displays that react either through motion, touch, or gesture.

Okay, this would be everything from something on a video wall to something on the floor, and a lot of digital signage people, if they've been around this space for a good long time, they may recall through the years seeing “activations” where there's a floor projection. I remember there was a company called Reactrix back in the mid-2000s that was doing this sort of thing. So it's like that, but I'm sure a lot more advanced and different, just because of the years and technology. 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, it's pretty much exactly like that; where it comes from the days of Reactrix and the early days of companies like GestureTek and Eyeclick is that we've moved more towards a software-only platform. 

When this technology first hit the scene, you needed to have special hardware. You couldn't just go down to Best Buy and buy a 3D camera. Now that the hardware is more ubiquitous and more affordable, it's possible to have a hardware-agnostic, software-only solution, and that's what we are.

So this kind of, to borrow a phrase, democratizes this whole thing in that in the old days, it would have been incredibly expensive and complicated to do, and now it's not, right? 

Meghan Athavale: That's right, yeah. I think we also just have multiple decades of information about what people are using this technology for so we're able to templatize a lot of the experiences so that companies don't need to have development teams in order to make some of these simpler interactions, they can just do an asset swap. 

It's the natural progression of a lot of these things where websites used to be hand-coded and then we went into WYSIWYG and then we went into systems like Wix and Squarespace. We're like the Wix or Squarespace of interactive digital displays.

So if I want to do an interactive digital display, it's like me using WordPress and buying a theme? 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, to a certain extent, exactly. 

So you guys have done all the heavy lifting, so to speak, in terms of the backend coding, how everything maps, but also, I think I saw there were something like 200 different apps in a library? 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah. There are 300 pre-made experiences, which they're constantly turning over. So we have some in there that have been there for 10 years that we will replace with something new. We're constantly rolling over those apps, and we take requests from our community, and that's one of the things that our business model gives us the freedom to do because we're not reliant on selling hardware and our community is very vast. We represent everything from education to large brands. Our community can make requests for new apps and we'll just make them and add them to our market. So we don't have the restrictions of having to charge through the nose for custom content development because we've developed these systems that make it very easy to pump out new content, and then the other thing that we offer as far as content goes, like out of the box content is we have an SDK for the companies that do have in house developers, and then we've got a number of different templates. So you can just say, I want to make a Koi Pond, and I want to throw my business's logo behind it, and you could whip something like that off in five minutes. 

So are the templates purely done in-house or do you have third-party designers who are contributing?

Meghan Athavale: That's a great question. At this point, they're all done in-house. We are working towards outsourcing a lot of our content development just because it'll give us a wider breadth of content and make that content more available. We're just at the very beginning of seeing rollouts that are large enough to make joining a third-party content development team attractive. 

We see this in gaming consoles all the time, where you'll have a new fantastic console that comes out, it's low cost, and they're trying to get game developers to create games for that console, but unless thousands and thousands of people have that console and are buying games for it, it's not really worth making a game for it so we're at the stage where we're starting to see enough of a widespread and permanent deployment of systems running on our platform that it makes sense to have those conversations with third-party development teams now and we're starting to have those conversations.

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about scale because one of the particularly compelling things about your company and your offer is cost, in terms of, it's not very expensive at all to use this. 

Can you walk through that and not really how the financials work, you're not charging a lot per instance of this on a monthly basis, so you need to have a lot of them out there, right? 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, that's right. We still make a percentage of our revenue on five or six big custom projects a year. I would say that our MRR represents about half of our revenue. The goal is to reach a point in scale where we can just focus on the platform, but I do get asked pretty frequently why it costs so little. 

There are a couple of reasons for it. The biggest one, I think, is just we want to make this, as you mentioned, democratizing the technology, we want to make this technology available and affordable to schools, that’s our primary business goal. I and my business partner, our moms were both special needs teachers, we've seen firsthand the struggles that teachers and educators have in getting technology into their classrooms they need it for kids with sensory issues or children with autism or ADHD, and we've seen how effective interactive digital displays can be in those environments, particularly for things like increasing social skills. A lot of these kids come in, and they're really stuck on screens. They're very stuck on virtual experiences, and so it becomes a bridge, where they can engage with one another and with their teachers socially while still having that digital feedback.

It's just very important to us that our pricing reflects our values as a company and that's one of our core values is making this accessible for education, but the other is that we really don't need to charge a lot for what we want to do. So at this point, our company's main work on the platform is around supporting hardware. So, as new devices come out, we're adding support for them so that you can download our software and you can plug in any of the commercially available 3D cameras, and it'll automatically recognize and calibrate that camera for you and take out the computer vision steps and specific requirements for each individual device, like DirectX. I think that would probably be the closest analog, you want something that you can plug and play regardless of which device you're using to achieve the tracking. So we want to focus on that. 

We also want to focus on the tools that allow people to scale these projects to multiple locations. If you have an interactive display in a flagship store and you want us to put it into all of your stores, the step from running your proof of concept to scaling it to a hundred locations is very simple using our platform, and it's because we're constantly pushing updates and we do health management, we have a content management system, and those are the things that we want to focus on the long term. We don't necessarily want to focus on developing the individual games. We want to make the game development stuff as easy for other people to do as possible because we don't have all the ideas in the world, but we are really good at making sure that other people's ideas continue to run and don't go down. 

Just so people understand, your top end cost is, if you work it out on a monthly basis, it's $74 a month, right? 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, that's as high as it gets. 

If I'm an agency and I decide I have a beauty brand client that wants some sort of activation that's an interactive floor or wall or whatever, that's going to cost like five-six figures probably, right?

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, I mean, the part that determines the cost of any of these installations is the hardware you choose to use. If you're a brand and you're developing the content from scratch, maybe hiring our team or hiring a third party to develop custom content for you, there may be 3D modeling involved, there may be compositing, you might have multi-level programming, you might have second screen experiences, so all of those things add up. 

But we can generally, when somebody comes to us and asks for a ballpark estimate, the only thing we really need to understand is where it is going and what kind of display you are planning to use, and we can generally come up with a range. 

But if you're doing it, it's going to be a fraction of what it would cost if you just went to an interactive agency and said, “Build this, please!” 

Meghan Athavale: Absolutely. But I think that something to keep in mind is that if you're going to an interactive agency and you don't have an idea yet, you're likely going to pay less. If you go to an agency and what you're paying them to do is to figure out what the activation actually should be, we're not an agency, and so we don't position ourselves as somebody that's going to do a lot of things like research and problem-solving. But what we can do is scale that. 

You’re not Moment Factory.

Meghan Athavale: We are not and we don't want to fill that niche because it's a different skill set and it requires the ability to experiment with things on a one-time basis. 

You may develop a solution for a brand or a display for the Super Bowl or something like that, where you're using a specific set of hardware just one time, and that's fantastic. I love that there are agencies in the world that get to do that, but that's not what we do. We look at it and go, how do we make this happen a thousand times, and that's a very different way of looking at things. So I think, if you want something that already exists, and you just want to put your stamp on it and create something that gives it a unique feel for your brand or experience, that's where you come to us. If you want something that's never been done before in the entire world and uses new technology that hasn't been proven long-term in the industry. TeamLab, and Moment Factory, are where you would go, but it is a lot more expensive for sure.

You're starting to use things like LiDAR and everything else.

Meghan Athavale: Yeah. The risk is just so much higher, and you need people on the ground. You need to roll a truck if something goes wrong. However, with our systems, we're way past that point. 

Yeah, because you've got the device management designed for scale and everything else, right?

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, we don't release anything into the market that hasn't been tested thoroughly in our labs for months and months at a time. We have the ability to guarantee things, whereas in some of these riskier projects, as long as you hire somebody that knows what they're doing, they're going to find a way to make it work, but they're not necessarily going to be able to tell you how from the beginning of the project. 

So, for something like a classroom, what's the kit of parts, and what's the degree of complexity to put this in? 

Meghan Athavale: Most classrooms either have an interactive floor, an interactive wall, or both. 

Already? 

Meghan Athavale: No, that's what they're putting in, and it's basically the same technology for either. We designed our software so it works with any projector, and a lot of classrooms already have projectors, so they'll just use what they have. So you've got your display, which in classrooms is typically a projector, a 3D camera, and a Windows computer.

We typically recommend that people use the sort of baseline specification on our site as an i5 or equivalent with a decent graphics card, you don't want something that's not going to be able to run games because that's basically what we're running, and the cost is usually like for including the projector for a classroom is usually around $2,000-2,500.

To set that up, is it the sort of thing that the school district or the schools, IT person, or people have to do, or is it simplistic to the level that if a teacher already got a projector pointed at a whiteboard of some kind, they can just do it themselves?

Meghan Athavale: So teachers can do it themselves, and we often help teachers do it themselves. But nowadays they're busy. Teaching is not an easy career right now, and we're typically dealing with the IT personnel for an entire division when these installations are going in.

If you're dealing with a full division or district, are they rolling out like that, or is it still onesie twosies? 

Meghan Athavale: It's usually one per school across an entire district, is what we're seeing, and that's mostly in the U.S. We haven't really seen nearly the same traction in schools in Canada yet.

I didn't say at the outset, but you're in Montreal. 

Meghan Athavale: Yes, that's right.

Why do you think that is just because of the way education works in Canada versus the US? 

Meghan Athavale: I'm not entirely sure. I know that it's like that in all of our verticals. So it's not just education. I would say retail, events, and all of the verticals that we serve, we have faster pickup and larger rollouts in the US. It could be the population just much bigger. 

I think we're just not risk takers, and I also think, to a certain extent, we're limited by things like weather and the accessibility of venues to having these types of, there are a lot more venues in the US that have built-in walls or built-in interactive components that we can just hop our software onto them. I don't think there are as many opportunities here. 

You mentioned, in detail, education; what other vertical markets or segments are you seeing a lot of activity in? 

Meghan Athavale: Events is the fastest growing segment, and this is like events of all different sizes and lengths, so it could be something that is like a week-long trade show, it could be like a birthday party for kids. It could be somebody who is a DJ, and they're bringing an interactive floor to all of their gigs. 

It's really all over the map. We just did a pop-up in Times Square for a major chocolate brand. We've done interactives for movie launches, so like those short-term events where they're developing their own special content and it's on for less than a month, I would say that is our fastest growing vertical. 

Interesting. We talked a little bit about planning before we turned on the recording, and I'm curious about how these things get planned out and how you ensure and how your users ensure that what they're putting up gets beyond just being eye candy/wow factor stuff because I often say that wow factor has a short shelf life. 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, and I absolutely agree with you. I think there has to be a balance between the cost and the reward of experiences like this. One of the biggest mistakes that we see people making is they'll see something on the internet, they'll see something in video format, and they'll think, I need that at my event, or I need that in my museum, and they'll skip the part of like why they need it.

It'll be entirely like an emotional decision, and the challenge here is that there are so many more and more faked every single day. We get sent videos all the time with people asking us to do anamorphic illusions. People will see videos of that, and they'll be like, “I want that but interactive, can you make it?” And because they're seeing a video and the video is staged, and in some cases, the video is a complete composite. It's not even something that actually happened in the real world, they won't understand that it doesn't work from anything except for one very particular perspective. So, the person who's interacting with anamorphic content is not going to see what the person watching from across the street on a particular street corner is going to see, and the same thing with large-scale digital displays. 

People will see these huge LED walls, and I think you saw this at our booth at LDI. When you walk right up to a big LED wall, you see the individual pixels, not the same image that somebody is watching from far away, so I think that those limitations are very difficult for people to understand and appreciate unless they've actually seen the installation in person. So I would say if you see something and you're planning to put it in an event, you're planning to use it in brand activation, go see that experience in person first. Don't make a decision about whether or not you need it until you've actually personally experienced it because seeing it on a video is not the same thing as what it's going to look like in real life.

And then the other advice that I give to people when they come to me with the wow factor criteria is like, what do you want the takeaway to be? Is this a shareable thing? Do you want a hundred people to come to your event to put up a hundred different videos and tag you in them? What is your metric for success? Because if that's it, then the content's going to be very different than if you want a hundred people to enter their emails in order to play a game or you need to know at the end of the day what you're walking away from after you've put that activation in place. 

I've seen different iterations of this stuff. The applications in classrooms, I think, is fantastic and it plays to kids at their whims and everything else; they want to be involved. I find it's quite different. 

A lot of the ones that I've seen in public spaces like shopping malls and so on, where you see the kids running around doing stuff, interacting with it, but you don't really see the adults, and that's fine if it's aimed at kids. But I wonder sometimes, when brands do these things, that the only real interest is with children and adults saying, “I'm not doing that, I'm not an extrovert. I don't want to do this trickery in front of other people.” 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah. I think that's a very fair point. One of the things that we noticed when we first started putting particularly interactive floors into retail spaces was that we still have an entire generation of adults, and I would count my own generation in there; we've been trained not to step on screens like it's your impulse isn't to go running through the light. The generations who are comfortable with that and who grew up with touch screens and expect everything to be interactive, I think they're in their twenties and early thirties now, so we are seeing that change quite a bit. I would say that from about 35 years down, we aren't seeing that hesitancy to interact with things, but I do think that we still have a long way to go in discovering how the content can be used. 

A lot of times, it's to augment like physical experiences is how you get adults to engage think like axe-throwing. Adding really cool interactive graphics to an axe-throwing experience is something that's going to really delight an older crowd. Same thing with bowling alleys, making those interactive. So I think…

So they're becoming Wii games. 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah. I think a lot of the time, people think that there's a choice between virtual experiences in VR and physical experiences like you would have with a traditional family entertainment center. But what our software allows you to do is combine the two, so you have a headset-free experience that does have digital interactive components, but you're also engaging with something physical. So we do a lot of Air Hockey tables, pool tables, and things like that where you're still playing pool and using physical paddles, but there are interactive digital visual elements on top of that. That's where we're seeing unquestionable pickup by older people. 

Yeah, so where there's tangible fun or some sort of activity versus so often when I've gone to trade shows, if I see some sort of an interactive video wall thing, please walk up to this thing and dance in front of it or wave your arms, and there'll be light particles and that's nice, but I don't see the business case here, and I don't think it's interesting for more than 10 seconds.

Meghan Athavale: For sure, if you're in an environment where you're dancing anyway, having cool visual effects while you're dancing is like a good bonus, and I think that's how we have to think about it in terms of engaging an older audience, is you need to be augmenting something that they're doing anyways.

You can't expect them to do an activity that they wouldn't normally do just because it's like eye candy. But if they're doing something anyway if they're already in a curling league and you can make their curling more fun…

We’re getting really Canadian here.

Meghan Athavale: Right. I mean, I'm available for anyone who wants to try that. I've done soccer, I've done hockey, I haven't done curling yet. I would really like to make an interactive curling experience. But yeah, that’s where you attract adults by helping make something that they want to do anyway, much cooler.

Where did this come from, like why did you start this company? 

Meghan Athavale: This is a very existential question. It's actually a pretty funny story. We started the company by accident. My co-founders, Keith Otto and Curtis Wachs and I, all worked at an agency together, and this was like 2010, back in the days when Instructables and a lot of those sorts of YouTube channels were just starting, and we started hanging out after work and just making stuff and it was all things that we would never get hired to make. We were designing our own touch screens. We created our own mist screen for projection. We did a lot of building projections and it was all for fun. We saw other people doing it all over the world. We thought it was really like a fun hobby. We started throwing parties to show off some of the things that we were making, and a friend of mine, Kayla Jeanson, who is an incredible videographer. She also has moved out to Montreal. This all happened back in Winnipeg, which is where my company is based. 

So we're all back in Winnipeg. Kayla shows up at one of the parties. This was before Facebook, so it was an SMS-controlled wall where you were sending text messages, and it was making things happen on the wall. She took a video, and that video ended up going viral. We found out about it after the fact, and we started getting contacted by different businesses the University of Nevada, Reno reached out and said, “Hey, we'd really like to have something cool like this in our cafeteria.” and Curtis and I just looked at each other, we're like, wow, people will pay us to do this. We registered a business, and we all quit our jobs. We applied for CMF funding, and we launched as an agency designing these interactive experiences and, within the first two years, realized that the biggest challenge was once the experience was in place how do you maintain it? How do you make sure that it's going to continue running? 

And that installation that we did back in, I think, in early 2011, in the cafeteria in Reno is still running, and part of it was just like starting by accident because a hobby that we were doing for fun led to some economic opportunities for us and the direction that we ended up taking was as a result of people liked what we did long enough to want to keep it running, to want to keep having us continue updating it. We've had a number of large-scale installations. There's one in Red Rock, Ontario, where they've done entire refreshes. We did our original installation for them in 2011 as well and just very recently replaced and updated a bunch of the software for them. The validation has been there, so the thing to focus on is how to make these experiences last, not how to make them cool for a week. 

The company is quite small. I believe it's just like a handful of people, right? 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah. That's right. There are four of us. 

And that's all you need to be because you're not getting into the weeds with the hardware, and I think you sell the hardware that you have through a reseller, Simply NUC? 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, we have a number of resellers, but Simply NUCis our preferred partner because they send us everything that they're selling so we can test it 24/7. So we're able to say with high confidence that anything you buy from Simply NUC is going to run long-term with our software. 

I would like a bigger team. In all honesty, we had to let a few people go during the pandemic. I think one year in, we were like, okay, we're not going to be able to sustain ourselves with a larger team. So, I think we'd like to see some growth in the team within the next year or so. Because of the way that we've built our platform, we're able to outsource stuff that we can't do where we don't have enough work to bring somebody in-house for long periods of time, and there are also just amazing resources out there for outsourcing, now that didn't exist when we first started the company. 

It's a small team. I don't anticipate that we'll ever be much more than 10 people.

But a few more wouldn't hurt.

Meghan Athavale: Yeah, a few more wouldn't hurt. I'd like to build in a little bit more redundancy, and I'm getting older, and one of these days, I'm hoping that there will be some sort of a succession.

Because of the relationship that we have with our resellers and our installers, there's really not a lot of mission-critical stuff on our side. We push our regular updates. We create new content and respond to community requests and stuff. But not a lot of the work that we do is like on a deadline. It's a pretty chill working environment where we identify things that we think are going to be of value to the customer, and then we ask our customers, and then we build the thing. There's no pressure.

And there's also a knock on wood at this point: not a ton of competition because it's still a very niche market. We don't feel the pressure to be like the trade show that you and I met on; it was the first we've been in business for 13 years, and that was the first time we've ever done a trade show exhibit.

Oh, wow, and what was your takeaway from that? 

Meghan Athavale: It was great. It was definitely time. We came away with quite a few new customers, and it was LDI. The reason we chose LDI as our first trade show is because there are so many companies that do events, and the total lifetime value of customers in the event space isn't as high as education would be or something where it's a permanent installation. There's just a lot more of them, and it's a lower-hanging fruit. We're hoping to bump up our revenue enough so that we can start expanding our team sometime mid-next year. 

Do you have a reference case or a handful of reference cases? If people said, this sounds really cool. I can't really just walk into a classroom, obviously. Are there museums or public spaces or something like that where I could go see this? 

Meghan Athavale: Yeah. There are quite a few.

What we usually ask people to do is if they want to see an installation of ours in real life and they aren't able to set it up themselves, just contact us, let us know what city you're in, and we'll find somebody in your area that you can go visit. There are a lot of live public libraries and museums and buildings that are open to the public that have installations in them, and then the other thing that people can do is we have a free evaluation version of our software that you can just download and install. 

So, for people who are getting into this on a commercial basis, it's a really good idea to set up a system for yourself, test it out, and play around with the tools. Don't pitch it to your customers until you've tried it, please!

So we make it possible for people to just install it for free and play around with it before they make any sort of purchase before they make any representations to their customers about what it can do. 

Okay. All right. So, if people want to find you online, that's LUMOplay.com, right?

Meghan Athavale: Yep. That's right. LUMOplay.com, and if you reach out through the site, you will be talking to me. My name is Meghan. 

All right, Meghan. Thank you very much. 

Meghan Athavale: You're very welcome. Thank you, Dave.

Jason Lu And Grace Kuo, Cecoceco

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

I have written and blabbered away about how LED technology is maturing to a level that it is becoming a design consideration for architects and the people who create the look and feel of built spaces. But that thinking always assumed that clever creative could make the black surface of a big video wall, loaded with the right content, take on the look of its surroundings.

Now a spin-out from a company with deep roots in LED display tech has gone the next step, by coming up with LED display tiles that look like wall finishes. Imagine a building lobby wall that, in its off state, looks like stone or tile or decorative wood, but lights up - with animations or messaging that appears out of that decorative surface.

That's the pitch for a new company called CECOCECO, which is a subsidiary of Chinese LED giant Unilumin. The company was founded by Jason Lu, who years earlier founded ROE, which is widely considered top of the heap for rental LED displays used by touring acts.

Lu was getting bored with that business and wanted to innovate again. So with his wife Grace Kuo, they've come up with and are now marketing something called ArtMorph. We get into a good discussion here about the origins of the product, how it works, and who is interested.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Jason and Grace, thank you for joining me. First of all, can you tell me what Cecoceco is all about? 

Jason Lu: I'm very happy to share the story about Cecoceco with you. I think, 16 years ago, I founded a company named ROE, and this company develops and manufactures LED displays, so we have 16 years of experience in that industry. To be honest, after 16 years, I got a little bit bored with that traditional business, and I wanted to do something different, but I didn't know what kind of product I could develop. So, one day, I found out that the traditional LED is always a black cabinet.

It's difficult to put it in an indoor environment. So I hope we can do something new and put a traditional cabinet with some new masks together to 100 percent match.

Grace Kuo: So the story is, one day, Jason came into a hotel and he suddenly said, “Oh, that LED looks so ugly. Why do these beautiful hotels have this ugly black LED? It's not really part of this hotel. You can really tell this is not a part of the hotel.” So he thought, why can't we build these kinds of things that have the lighting or video source but you won't see that ugly? You can take it as part of these decorations. You can make it as part of these buildings, which is how the idea came out. He thinks, oh, I should create some innovation, stuff which can make this environment look more material and beautiful and not only for the hotels, but also for restaurants, and also for libraries, every place should have those kinds of stuff, instead of the ugly black LED for atmosphere.

So, for context, just so people understand, ROE is very highly regarded as the best rental temporary LED displays on the market, and your company was acquired by Unilumin, correct? 

Grace Kuo: Yes. 

Were you still with the company until recently?

Grace Kuo: Jason's still with the company because you know the story is like he said two years earlier, when he felt bored with this traditional business, he felt oh I should stop it. I should get out of this business and continue my passion for innovation so he left for two years, but at the end of last year, he came back and continued his leadership at ROE and then he also brought back the Cecoceco  team to ROE Visual. So, right now, Cecoceco is a subsidiary company of ROE Visual as well. 

So ultimately you're owned by Unilumin? 

Grace Kuo: Yes. 

So we'll make the assumption then that the underlying LED infrastructure technology is Unilumin? 

Grace Kuo: We are very independent. We develop everything and do everything by ourselves, even the manufacturing, so they're basically only financially part of the group, but, besides that, everything is independent. 

So as I'm looking at this on your website, it appears to be relatively low-res LEDs with a veneer front to them, and the veneer can be stone, it could be fabric, it could be wood, or it could be something else, correct?

And how do you push the light through the veneer? Is it microscopically thin? 

Grace Kuo: So this is a good question. This is a key technology we have on these products, but Jason, can I give you more explanations, about how we make lighting come through those kinds of materials?

Jason Lu: Oh, yes. We tried a lot of different materials but finally we found out very special 3D printing technologies so e use these technologies to print the different masks. But it looks very real. When you touch it, you will feel this is real wood but it's still printing technologies.

Oh, okay. if I see a stone wall where there's light coming through, and I'm thinking to myself, how did they cut the granite or whatever that thin, they didn't? It's 3D printed to look like stone?

Grace Kuo: Yeah, there are two different ways we are doing this. One way is as Jason explained to you, but we also, actually, find out it's really, goldstone, the real stone, that can work with our products which also can have very high lighting or display transparencies. 

Oh, so you can do it with real stone? 

Grace Kuo: Yeah, we can do it with real stone. 

Jason Lu: But the basic version is a print version. 

Grace Kuo: Yeah, so we have two versions. One is, the printing version, in which you can choose everything you want, you can choose wooden, you can choose stone or you can choose a different kind of texture, but we also have the real materials that can work with our products. So we're working with one of the companies in the US, which is making a very special stone. They have very high lighting transparencies, which can work with our products very well. 

Jason Lu: But we start from the printing direction first because this is an easy way. But if some customer needs customizing, we will choose some real material, but I think we start from the basic printing idea. 

So you have a number of different faces or veneers or whatever that you already have available. But if you had an existing building and a lobby that was wood lined, you could color and tone match whatever the look of that would to create a custom veneer, right?

Grace Kuo: Yes, that’s possible to customize. 

Interesting. So, how bright is it? 

Jason Lu: It's 700 nits, which is more than bright enough for what you're trying to do, right? 

Grace Kuo: Yeah, I think so. We also discussed this with a lot of scientists and designers, and they felt 700 nits, for those kinds of motion products is more than enough. 

Yeah, I have seen some instances of low-res LED walls where they put a diffusion fabric layer in front of it to create something visually interesting without going to the full expense and everything associated with a full video wall to fill a whole lobby. This created the experience without all that cost and all the maintenance and everything. Is that kind of what you're going for? 

Grace Kuo: No, actually we are approaching different way to achieve this goal because, yes, you can see there are several projects that already happened, with different materials on top of the traditional screen, but there are a lot of works on a project site, so you always get two layers, separately and you need to have a lot of completed works on the project side. 

So it's gonna cause a lot of unpredictable problems and also cost a lot in labor, so our goal is to integrate these two ideas together and make one a finished product when the customer gets it, they get finished products and just make the quick install. They don't have actual onset costs. 

Okay, and there's a whole mounting system that you apply to the wall, fairly shallow by the looks of it, and it looks like the tiles themselves are less than an inch, and each of the tiles is ten by ten, I think, right? 

Grace Kuo: Each tile is 500 millimeters by 500 millimeters. 

So these things go together like a traditional LED video wall and you can stack them, tile them, and so on? 

Grace Kuo: Yeah, so you can build them as big as you want. 

And there's no physical dimensional limit?

Grace Kuo: There is no physical dimension limit so it's just units you can combine together. 

Jason Lu: And we also did some optic design to try and reduce the gap between the two modules.

To reduce the gap between the modules? 

Grace Kuo: With those kind of upper masks, visually, you've got some optical visible lines. So we also use some technologies to reduce these optical visible lines to make people feel this is really one picture, there are no optical lines, between units.

Right, because you want to make it disappear and just feel like the wall, the furnishings of the building. what typically is going to show on these... Is it immersive, it's ambient, you're not really doing messaging or anything, correct? 

Grace Kuo: What do you mean by messaging? 

You wouldn't run text. You wouldn't run a logo or something like that, probably?

Grace Kuo: It's possible, because the resolution is more than enough to play the characters or any content. 

So you could read something, or would it be more of a large logo or something? 

Grace Kuo: No, you can read some things. 

If you were describing the pixel pitch, what would it be?

Grace Kuo: Objective.

Grace Kuo: Because we are not selling this as an LED display, we are selling this whole concept as a totally new experience that we are bringing to this market, so it's based on the display technologies, but it's not a display, it's totally a mode product, emotional products, bring the different lighting or visual experience, to the people so that's why we're not selling on the resolution. 

So the people who you'd be accustomed to selling to and partnering with at ROE are the very different people for this product because I suspect you're dealing with architects and designers of internal spaces. 

Grace Kuo: You are correct. So it's currently totally different customers from what we have right now. So that's why we said that Cecoceco was independent from the design to the sales. 

So when you go to these architects and interior designers, are they tilting their head to the side trying to figure out what you're talking about, or do they get it?

Grace Kuo: Most designers or architects, when they hear these stories, they get it, so they know what we want to bring to this market. They know they see some things actually they've been looking for a long time because they are also really boring. With the LED screens, there are only high resolutions, but nothing new. So they feel there is something that can really be a game changer. 

What you've done here is the advancement of the idea that was in the Comcast Tower in Philadelphia some 15 years ago where you had, I think was P6 pixel pitch LED, with the content picking up the look of the side wood walls in the lobby but then stuff would appear on it. But as you were saying at the start, if it was off, it was black. 

And in order for it to always look like the rest of the lobby, it always had to be on versus what you're describing where it could be off, and it's going to look like the rest of the lobby. 

Grace Kuo: So it's just part of the decoration. So that is where the idea comes from, you need to have fun things be part of these decorations, be part of this environment, because we don't want to bring some high technologies and destroy the history in castles or even history is a restaurant, right? But we still want to bring these modes, bring these emotions to the people living there or sitting there.

We wanted that when the people came to step into this space, they didn't feel, “Oh, there is some, some lighting or a display surrounding them.” But they felt, when they are lighting up, they say, “Oh, I'm in a beautiful, lighting environment.” 

So, do you consider this more an architectural lighting application than a digital display app application? 

Grace Kuo: So this is a combination because we have a full 16-17 years of knowledge about the lighting and lighting source or display source. We keep some balance between the lighting and displays and make sure, even with a display, they still can get the true lighting source out. So that's why we do not use our traditional three RGB colors. We use multiple color combinations. 

So it's not just white light? 

Grace Kuo: No, not just white light. It's four colors, but it is not a traditional full RGB color. We draw multiple colors together to get more mature and to lighten up.

Jason Lu: So we use four-color LED. So that means the light quality is very high. So, the CII is very high.

Interesting. So when you said that architects and designers have been looking for this for some time and unable to find anything, why were they looking for this? 

Grace Kuo: I think because they want to offer something new to the end user, right? And I think they also have the same feelings as us just because the people like the video and the lighting, right? So that's why we can see LED displays everywhere right now, but to be honest, in some places, it's not the right place to put out the display. How many people are really reading the message from the display when they get in the galleries, they are going to galleries, they are enjoying the content, they enjoy the atmosphere. They're not really reading the message from the LED, right? 

So if you can offer that kind of architecture stuff that can also bring this lighting or display experience, it's a bonus for the market.

On the creative side, you're selling to architects and interior designers who are used to specifying finishes, like this wall is going to be mahogany or granite or whatever. They don't typically have to worry about creative files motion graphics, and so on. How do you deal with that? 

Grace Kuo: So we have our own developed controllers, which you can design any content you want to play out.

So you would design the content within your software? 

Grace Kuo: Yeah, we actually have some content galleries already set up, controllers, which you can choose directly, but you also can create your own, content with shaders, and play the different content. 

Is it a particular skill set to produce creative for this, or if you know your way around motion graphics, you'll be fine?

Grace Kuo: You probably need a little bit of technical background, but it's not that difficult. 

But if you work in After Effects or something like that, you'd be able to figure this out. 

Grace Kuo: Yes.

What about the cost versus conventional LEDs? So if I wanted to put something in a lobby and I was thinking about, let's say, a 1.9-millimeter pixel pitch Unilumin LED wall or something versus the Cecoceco, is it similar cost, a lot less, or more? 

Grace Kuo: Oh, compared with the 1.9 millimeters, of course, it's going to be lower than that resolution, so our target MSRP price is around $4,500 per square meter, which is quite acceptable after we talk with the market, especially for the buildings. At the very beginning of the design, they already can design these products be part of the creation materials. Basically, they can see me on some of the creation materials from the beginning.

So that's when this is probably the easiest to sell into a building, right? When they're putting the building up, and it's just another number in a whole bunch of numbers versus coming at them cold and on a finished building and saying, “It's going to be X to put this in too.” 

Grace Kuo: Yeah, so you can do it before they have to finish these buildings, but you also can do this after that, but if you make a better plan at the beginning, which means you can also see the materials, right? For the majority of the walls, you don't need marble anymore. You just put our ArtMorph instead of the regular marble. 

Is it changeable? Let's say there's a building that starts off with your product that has a wood-like veneer on it and they do a renovation quicker than they'd expected and want to go to stone or something. Could they retrofit it?

Grace Kuo: Yes, this is a key point. This is another benefit of ArtMorph. The surface is actually changeable, especially, for houses, like hospitality, they would like to show different content, and different feelings, to their guests in different holiday seasons. So the textures are actually changeable, and it's very easy to change. 

Is it the module that changed, or can you actually change the veneer? 

Grace Kuo: So you can actually just change the top part. 

So when did you get started, and when did you start selling? 

Grace Kuo: So we are ready to sell. Actually, we already started to sell but officially, I think we're going to start selling Q1 next year, 2024. 

And are you showing up at trade shows with it? 

Grace Kuo: Yes. We're going to bring this to the ISE in Barcelona in 2024. 

I'll be there. 

Grace Kuo: Oh, good. looking forward to seeing you there.

So, are you going to have your own stand, or will you be associated with ROE and Unilumin?

Grace Kuo: Cecoceco is going to share a stand with ROE, but they're going to have their very independent, separate area. 

And are you installed anywhere yet and can you say where it’s at? 

Grace Kuo: We are, but we can not yet say. 

But you're actually selling and installing?

Grace Kuo: Yes. 

Where are you seeing the most interest? Is it North America, Dubai, or China? 

Grace Kuo: I think North America, of course, is a very important market for us because there are a lot of interior designers and some architecture, and Dubai, we haven't done too much because we want to focus on a strong market and expand to other territories. So we are going to start from North America and the UK. We feel these two markets have a lot of talented designers. 

I would have thought you'd start in China. 

Grace Kuo: China wants to get this kind of influence from overseas. 

So where is the company based?

Grace Kuo: The company is based in Shenzhen, China. 

Do you have offices in North America?

Grace Kuo: We have an office in North America, which is in Chatsworth, Los Angeles. 

Suburban LA. Perfect. All right, this was great. I'm looking forward to seeing this in Barcelona. 

Grace Kuo: I'm looking forward to seeing you in Barcelona.

All right. I appreciate your time with us. Thank you.

Grace Kuo: Thank you, Dave. 

Thank you, Jason. 

Jason Lu: Thank you, Dave. I'm so sorry, I cannot explain my idea to you directly, but Grace is a very good partner of mine.

Grace Kuo: We are partners, yes. but Jason can give you more product introductions in Barcelona.

That would be perfect. I suspect there's going to be a lot of people very interested in this. 

Grace Kuo: I think so, yeah. 

David Thomas, BudSense

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

When cannabis started being legalized in US states like Colorado, and more recently across Canada, it struck me that it was a very interesting new vertical for digital signage companies to chase - because it was a greenfields industry that had retail environments offering up products wholly unfamiliar to a lot of the people walking in the door.

It's grown pretty clear, though, that while there may indeed be big long-term opportunity, cannabis retailing is also a very complicated industry - with rules and regulations changing by jurisdiction, a whole bunch of vendors and SKUs, and widely variable supply chains.

While there might be a common perception that getting the OK to sell cannabis is a license to print money, a lot of operators are struggling financially, and both retailers and the tech ecosystem underpinning cannabis are coming in and dropping out all the time.

A Canadian company called BudSense has a particularly interesting story to tell. The company, based in Regina, Saskatchewan, started out as a retailer, but found its way into technology to fill the gaps in what they needed to effectively manage stores and communicate to customers.

Now, software is the main business, and BudSense has a SaaS software product that is all about managing menus and other screens around dispensaries, and is very specifically tuned to cannabis retailing - as opposed to general digital signage software that could also drive cannabis store menus.

Canada has been the main focus to date, but co-founder David Thomas says BudSense has business in the US, and plans to grow that.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

David, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me a little bit about BudSense?

David Thomas: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Dave. BudSense is a menu merchandising company in the cannabis industry. It solves the problem for our retailers of menu management.

And are you focused just on menus or are you doing in-store promotion, all kinds of other things within these dispensaries? 

David Thomas: Yeah, we do some in-store promotion tool sets as well, pretty much anything that involves merchandising is the solution that we want to solve. 

Your company's in Saskatchewan, right?

David Thomas: Yes, we're based out of Regina, Saskatchewan, where we got our start in dispensary operation. 

So when you say dispensary operations, you mean you're actually running a dispensary? 

David Thomas: We were, and we still are. I partnered with my brother, John, around legalization in Canada. We started by running four stores in Saskatchewan. We've since sold those stores and moved on to other retail footprints but that's when we started developing the software that is now BudSense. 

What set you down that path? Because being a retailer is very different from being a software company?

David Thomas: Absolutely. So I have a background in engineering. My brother has a background in pharmacy. We actually started our business partnership before cannabis in real estate and we have an entrepreneurial spirit. We were always looking for opportunities and when cannabis was announced for legalization, we saw it as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and we wanted to participate so that was the catalyst that pushed us into the cannabis space. We went into retail because of our real estate and pharmacy background.

I have a lot of experience running teams and building systems. So we just put our skill set to use in a brand new industry. 

So did you write your own software to run your store and that's what got you down the path or was it the absence of good software to do what you needed? 

David Thomas: It was both. We solved whatever problem was directly in front of us. So it wasn't like we wanted to solve digital menus. It was more of a necessity and then we had the skillset to do it in that way. So when we started, we had four stores to run and that's very atypical from a normal business where you start with one and then progress if you're successful.

So from day one, I knew that we needed a system to manage merchandising from a central location. So we could know what was happening in the stores and there were some solutions on the market but they were pretty flimsy at that point and we just felt more comfortable building our own.

So, that's where we started down the path of digital menus.

At what point did you decide that you'd rather be a tech company than a retailer? 

I think the perception when cannabis was legalized in Canada was if you managed to get permits, particularly in those provinces where they allowed for private operators, it was a license to print money.

David Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. The markets are very interesting with cannabis. I've watched them develop in our region, in the U.S., and other places and that's certainly the perception from the outside looking in and that happens a lot in an early market, whereas some of the permits are protected and ours were in the early days.

We actually sold what turned out to be the peak of the market which was an excellent catalyst for our next chapters. So now a lot of the markets in Canada are oversaturated. I've heard numbers thrown around something like 70% of dispensaries in Canada are unprofitable and that has to do with market saturation, but it also has to do with operations being a little bit bloated and not really having the efficiency needed. 

BudSense is focused on driving some extra revenue but also tries to make sure your costs are under control and you're running an efficient operation.

I've also heard a number of times that the big challenge of a lot of the people who get into launching dispensaries is they know they're cannabis, but they don't really know retailing. 

David Thomas: You've hit on something really interesting because even if they do know retail, which is very rare, cannabis is different. So you have this situation where no one has the perfect skillset so it's going to take innovation and learning regardless of what your background is because it's new and it has new problems. 

So what happens is, regardless of your background, you go into it, you start trying things and if you're not mindful then your first go at it isn't going to be perfect. You're going to need to change your strategy. That's where people get into trouble with switching costs, with building systems that aren't necessarily malleable enough to change. So there's a ton of different backgrounds. Some people are more experienced with the product. Some people are more experienced with retail. Some people are more experienced with purchasing. It's really interesting because you essentially have to lean on your strengths while understanding your weaknesses and kind of build the business that way. There are a lot of different paths to success in cannabis and we see that with our different customers of BudSense where there's not one way to do this but it is challenging regardless of what your background is. 

One of the big challenges that I've perceived is how things are licensed and regulated changes by jurisdiction. So for instance, In Saskatchewan, where your company is based, it sounds like it's privatized. Where I live in Nova Scotia, it's run by the Provincial Liquor Corporation. So it's very much regulated and I can go in and buy a bottle of wine around the corner and buy whatever you buy there, I don't terribly know but it's all incorporated and much more heavily regulated perhaps than in a private situation and I guess it's the same in the states where it can change state by state. 

David Thomas: Yeah, you've hit on another one where it's interesting because your operation depends on the municipality (based on zoning) and the region you're in because one of the most important parts of it is your location and how protected it is from other competition, and then your purchasing is different based on your region. But one thing that we excelled at is it's very simple. We read the rules, and we read the regulations, and we understood them. And a lot of other times people would go in based on what they're doing in the U.S. or what they're doing in another market. 

The problem with that, like a concrete example, was when we opened our stores in Saskatchewan, we didn't have a security guard at the front door because the regulations didn't say you had to, we were treating our customers as customers and a lot of people looked at what the U.S. was doing and they saw these security guards at the front door and they didn't necessarily understand the purpose of the security. The security guards were there because it's not legal federally. So it's purely a cash business and the insurance is extremely expensive. So when you have a cash business, your store is filled with cash, and it's a target for crime. So for those reasons and the illegality of it at a federal level, that's why the security guard is there. But when you read the regulations, there's no reason for one.

So it's little things like that where if you're not focused on the details of the regulations and respect the regulations, it's really hard to create a dynamic business without understanding them. 

So if I'm a cannabis dispensary and I've just opened up, or I'm about to open up, and I determine I need digital menu displays and I would like some promotional displays as well, could I just use any old digital signage CMS software to run the store or would I be just buying into a whole bunch of work that I don't need to? 

David Thomas: It depends how large your organization is and it depends how highly you value your menus. If it goes back to our conversation earlier, what is your skill set what do you value and how are you going to create value in your business?

If you're willing to enter all of your product information daily and keep it up to date on your menu, which some people do, there is a viable reason to do that if you want expanded information that says something BudSense doesn't offer. If you want a clean, tight operation, that runs your menus a little bit more efficiently and automated, that's where BudSense really starts to shine. BudSense manages scale really well. So you may be able to have an owner-operated store that uses a chalkboard that understands every product that's coming in, but when you get 5-30 stores under a banner that falls apart really fast. It again depends, but like we offer some powerful menu solutions that go beyond that kind of out-of-the-box, digital signage stuff that you're referring to.

And from what I understand, there's a whole sort of technology ecosystem focused around the cannabis dispensary business, including point of sale systems, information systems, inventory management systems, all that stuff that maybe you would never find in an apparel store or hardware store or something like that, but it's tuned to cannabis. Is that accurate? 

David Thomas: It's very accurate and I'm fascinated by it because I think it's partly to do with our time in modern technology, where if hardware stores were legalized today or if hardware stores were invented today, I believe they would have a stronger tech ecosystem. I believe that we're using tech in cannabis more so than in other verticals at the start of their run because it's available to us and it's helpful.

That said, the nature of cannabis and the instability of the supply chain leads really well to these niche products. You mentioned point of sale, and for example, there's a seed-to-sale regulation needed where you're monitoring individual products from the time that they're grown to packaged, delivered to the store, accepted at the store, to sell to the customer, meaning seed to sale and that regulation is over and above most just out of the box point of sale systems, so that's why. 

And that, again is down to the region. So these point-of-sale companies have to change their technology to support region-by-region regulations based on that seat to sell tracking and other things.

Wow. So it gets very complicated. 

David Thomas: It does. It is certainly a unique set of challenges, and it's a really early stage too. So a lot of these challenges and underdeveloped technology fall on the lap of operators, and it's challenging. 

As a tech provider in this ecosystem, is it challenging to get to scale because you've got all of these operators and as you said, 70 percent of them maybe aren't profitable, so they come in, they come out, they're cash constrained, and everything else? 

David Thomas: It is challenging.. That being said, this is my first software-as-a-service company that I've built so I'd imagine that it's always challenging, but I do think it's particularly challenging in cannabis. 

That said, I think it requires the right approach for this industry, and it's back to what I was saying, where just understanding the rules and, as you said, understanding the conditions that these operators are trying to run their business in is really important. For those reasons, we spend all of our capital on the product. A lot of our competitors spend more on sales than we do. And the reason why we spend on products is because exactly what you're saying, there's a lot of problems to solve and if people are going to go to business, I don't really value early market share that much.

That being said, it lowers the revenue that we can create out of the bat, but I feel like focusing on the product and focusing on trying to help our customers create success, drive revenue, and clean up their costs. I feel like that's a winning formula long term. It's just a little bit rocky at the start.

And where are we in that sort of evolution of the industry? Did legalization happen 10-plus years ago in Colorado?

David Thomas: Yeah, 10 years ago, Colorado. Five years ago, Canada. The Colorado legalization, like the legacy in the US, is interesting because they've been in an eye on an island.

So, tools such as BudSense haven't really hit them. They made do with what they had, and it created interesting market conditions. It's all in the US, also I don't think they've seen the growth and consumption expected and that's because without federal legalization they really won't see that three decade increase of consumption that we're expecting and when you go nationally legalized like Canada would see. But yeah, where are we from a tech standpoint overall? I think we're really early. I don't think it's been proven that a point-of-sale system can have international dominance.

It still seems to be region by region. I don't really think many people have realized how taxing regulation is on technology. For that reason, BudSense is what I call decoupled from the transaction, and this is counter to most traditional tech thinking where you want to get as close to the transaction as possible because that's where the money is but in cannabis, that's also where the regulation is.

So, by decoupling from that, we can spray it a little thinner and build solutions that are easier to scale across the entire industry. So industry as a whole, I think we have a long way to go. BudSense is making pretty significant strides in building powerful tools that take some of these retailers out of the dark ages, of the challenging period of cannabis retail.

And some of the surf riders have come in and out of the space as well or you contacted me because one of them was basically backing out of the digital signage. 

David Thomas: Yeah, I've seen a lot of significant decisions of pulling out, coming back in, investing, divesting. It's tough for me to speculate, but yes, our main competitor in the US has dropped out of digital signage in the cannabis industry. 

And you're speculating again, but I'm curious: why would they do that? It strikes me as if you get into something with them, then you've got recurring revenue.

David Thomas: Yeah, my best assumption is, first of all, Enlightened was purchased by a company called Weedmaps, which I believe is the largest Cannabis company in the world. So they had a larger parent company, and when a larger parent company is involved, and you're dealing with a subsection of that company, who knows what could have possibly happened?

But what I see time and time again is even a dominant player like Weedmaps, likely doesn't understand the whole scope of the cannabis industry. They get their part really well, but they don't necessarily understand the retail part or the cultivation part and the individual challenges that come with it. So when they think of digital signage, they're probably thinking of it as simpler than what BudSense has, and when you bring a simple solution to a really complicated environment, it's really tough to maintain and scale. So there's a chance that they're making the right decision for them, whereas that recurring revenue that they might have on their balance sheet, maybe it's not sustainable. And again, I don't know, but those are some assumptions that I could make to the decision. 

Of those retail stores, dispensaries, whatever you want to call them in Canada and the US, are most using digital screens in some way or are some of them still analog? 

David Thomas: It goes in trends. Canada has a higher digital percentage than the US. A lot of stores don't use menus at all because they just completely simplify the problem and use their Budtenders to communicate directly with the consumer. 

But that gets challenging in terms of volume and staffing, right?

David Thomas: So many things, because then now you have personal bias too and your consumer, they don't necessarily want to get all their information from the Budtender. Some people love it. Some people don't like it. 

I think one of the missing pieces in that ideology is that the menu isn't just for the consumer. It's also for the Budtender so that they can use the menu to discuss purchasing options together. With cannabis, there's a lot of information to process, and I think that some operators, they're around it all day, every day, and they lose sight of what it's like for a consumer to come into the store and just absorb and consume all of this information.

And what menus really do is help structure those conversations, regardless of how you see the customer journey happening, I think you're missing out if you don't have a well-thought-out merchandising plan. That said, if you're dealing with something that's inefficient and doesn't really work that well and it requires more headache than it's worth, there's a great argument to not do it at all. 

If you're not able to do it well, don't do it at all. That is a methodology that I subscribe to for other parts of the business. So why not menu management? 

Yeah, that's a long-running story in digital signage.

A lot of venue operators, whether they're retailers or QSR or whatever, invest in the technology. They invest in the original content load, and then it just becomes an orphaned bunch of screens that never get updated. 

David Thomas: Yeah, I see that all the time, and then it's just in the background, right?

We see that in our sales cycle too, where our potential customers are using another solution, it might just be collecting dust in the background but when they see our software, they're more like, oh, this exists. This is out there to help me manage my menus and make it a little bit more meaningful. So it's fascinating. There is a difference in ways that operators manage menus, whether you're talking about ‘No menus at all’ or poorly managed menus or something more along the lines of BudSense. 

Yeah. I was excited by the prospect of digital signage in cannabis retailing because you would have a whole wash of consumers who would be walking into these stores for the first time, completely unfamiliar with the product, and maybe a little bit uncomfortable because they don't get it. They don't know what they're buying. They don't want to be sold stuff that's overpriced or whatever. 

I saw digital signage as a way to help educate, drive awareness, and streamline operations. But I hear a variety of stories, including from you about how well that works. 

David Thomas: Yes, it's fascinating, right?

I think back to legalization and what consumers' expectations were of the store and what we had. They came into our store on day one, and we had 8 products for them to buy, like edibles weren't legal, we didn't have pre-rolls because they weren't legal and it was just in a lot of ways disappointing.

And when you look at it up close, it feels like a struggle. But when you resume the way out, I see a 30-year improvement cycle where we're getting better at this, and we're starting to pull consumption away from alcohol and towards cannabis, and I think that a lot of operators are a little bit too close to it where they don't see these new customers coming in because it might only be 2% of their customer base that is new, but that 2% over time is massive and it's exactly what you were saying where there's a feeling that our customers know how we do things, we know where to find the products that they want to buy and maybe they even already know what they want to buy before they come into the store. Yes, that's all true but there is this subsection of the consumer base that is intimidated the first time that they come into the store.

There are a lot of Canadians who still haven't been into a cannabis store, or maybe they went once, and they had a negative experience. So, exactly to your point is this customer journey. We really do have to try and make it as welcoming as possible. 

And I've seen everything from cannabis stores that look like Apple stores, they're sleek, they're beautiful and I've seen other ones that look like Korean variety stores in suburban Toronto or something, you just run down and shabby and everything. 

David Thomas: Yeah, it's interesting. That was the common thread of, “We want to be the Apple store of cannabis,” and I think we've softened that stance a little bit. A lot of those companies who had that concept in mind, they're quite frankly, they're bankrupt now or on their way out, and what happens is when you have a 30 percent margin packaged good product, you gotta be careful where you spend your money. 

So, I think it's about making our customers comfortable, and the other thing is how much space do you need? I think, as a rule, even our early stores were too big and they were still half the size of some of these other ones. If you make your store small enough, you can make it as nice or as rough around the edges as you were saying, as you want. But it's really about where you're spending that money and how you want to design your customer experience from there.

So tell me about the company, what's your installed base? 

David Thomas: So we have approximately 10% of the Canadian market right now. We started out focused, so we're in over 500 locations in the US and Canada. We're very focused on maximizing our current customers' use of the product; that's how we approach our development. And as we go, we build from word of mouth and inbound leads. As I said, we don't have a ton of sales efforts. 

One of our early successes was based on my retail experience, understanding from first-hand experience what a retailer needs and building a product to suit that. But eventually, that kind of ran out, and I'm still involved in the space from a retail perspective, but what we started to realize was there are different perspectives of this, and there are different ways of doing it, and we look at every new customer as an opportunity to see a new perspective of how menu management can work in this space, and we try to build our product around those different stories. So each of our retailers might not realize it, but they have a voice in the development roadmap of our product, and that's how we see growth because if we can save our customers’ time and then once we save them time, we can start maximizing margins, and once we maximize margins, we can start boosting their revenue. We can really take some of these companies who are struggling and make their business better, and that's what we're focused on rather than store count because we're in the infancy of the industry. So, I see it as almost a waste of resources to chase early market share. I would much rather build a strong product. 

Is it easier to work in Canada than the US because it is nationally legal? 

David Thomas: I guess it really depends on what your goal is. It's easier to do some things with cannabis in Canada. For instance, we built a database of 35,000 SKUs in Canada to help our retailers with data entry.

That's not possible in the US. There are no barcodes from state to state, just because of the federal legality of it. That said, if you're going to do a more simple solution, the US could be easier. The reason why we focus our development on Canada is because it's a little bit more robust in terms of a national regulation standard. So we can build out our product in a way that kind of wraps around a nationally legalized structure, and then what we do is we take parts of that, and we distribute it in the US. So our Canada market is like an R&D farm, and then we pull out parts of our product and wrap it around a particular use case in the US, but if we focus on the US, it's so fragmented that it's tougher to build that cohesive system. It's better to build the cohesive system and then only use 30% of it rather than build 30% of it and not know what that 70% is supposed to look like if that makes sense. 

The company is privately held? 

David Thomas:  Yes.

And how many people do you have? 

David Thomas:  We have 12 people right now.

And just dispersed, or do you actually have a bunch of people in Regina?

David Thomas:  We have a head office. It's a pretty cool program. It's called the Conexus Cultivator, and it's a tech incubator. So we have about half of our team there, and then the rest is distributed throughout Canada and remote work.

You're in Victoria, BC, which is a lot nicer this time of year than Regina. 

David Thomas: It is, yeah. I spent many winters in Regina. I do feel grateful to be here now in the winter. 

Yeah, I'm a Western Canada boy, so I had to get the hell out of that one. I don't like minus 30 Celsius. 

David Thomas: I feel like I've spent enough time in it. 

You've paid your dues. 

David Thomas: Yes. 

All right. This has been great. Very insightful. 

David Thomas: Thanks a lot, Dave. I appreciate you having me on.

Sebastian Kryh, Dise

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Dise is an acronym for Digital In Store Experience, and that nicely sums up what the Swedish software firm Dise is all about.

Around for 20 years now, the company is heavily focused on a retail-centric communications platform sold through solutions providers and other partners in its channel.

Now everybody and their sister identifies retail as a main target vertical solution for their platform, but most software options are designed to serve a wide variety of interests that might include everything from factories and airports to hospitals and schools. Dise says it's all about retail.

I had a good chat with CEO Sebastian Kryh about what makes his company's product offer distinct, and how Dise defines retail experience.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Sebastian, thank you very much for joining me. Can you give me a rundown of your company? 

Sebastian Kryh: Sure thing. Thank you for having me, Dave. So Dise (Digital in-store experience) is a Swedish company that was founded back in 2003. So we've been at it for a while. For digital signage, we like to distinguish that by saying in-store experience or digital in-store experience, right?

Because it's so much more than just a digital poster it's sold purely through a network of selected partners with the goal of connecting the online and physical world to the physical space by improving the customer experience. With the mission to build a user experience to love with intuitive and easy software as a tool.

So would you describe Dise as a software company or more of a solutions company that has software? 

Sebastian Kryh: Interesting distinction there, I would describe it as a software company where we build on a product company. So, we build the platform or the suite, which has three parts, CMS being the shining star in the playout. We work with partners to create their experiences their offers, and opportunities to work with their brands and their customers. 

Okay. So, if you say you have a suite, what else is in the suite? 

Sebastian Kryh: There’s the CMS. It's a cloud-based and intuitive CMS. We have a design tool to build dynamic content and templates in general, used in the CMS and then we have the software that runs on the media players. Both external ones like Windows, Linux, and Brightside and SOCs like the big ones, Samsung and LG.

So when you're working with largely retail customers and you start an engagement with them. What does your company take on, and what's taken on by partners? 

Sebastian Kryh: So what we do is that we only work with partners. So, from time to time, of course, we interact with the brands and do that.

The perfect Dise partner is a full-service partner that takes care of all the pieces in the offering to the brands. Everything from creating the content to the consultancy of creating the concepts, installation support for all the partners. And what we supply is the in store experience platform and the support to the partners.. 

So, it would be a bit like, I know, I understand it's very different, but Broadside is they're UX, Their everything is all focused around digital out-of-home advertising. That's what they're there for, versus probably, the high 90s percentile of CMS software companies are general offers that have some specialty aspects to them, but they're pretty broadly focused.

It sounds like you're saying that Dise is very much retail UX, designed for retail that's where you're going to shine. 

Sebastian Kryh: That's where we're going to shine. Exactly, and that decision was made quite a number of years back where it wasn't more of a general feel to it. You could do basically everything you still can, but the main focus would be retail, and how we interact with the retail needs of campaign management and structuring of all the stores and the remote management you would need for that.

So, we feel that we are the ones who are focusing on retail and marketing ourselves as such and that's where we shine, and that's where we have the best results. 

So, you have in-store experience. How do you define experience, and how does the company define it? Because it's a very broad term and used quite a bit when I don't think there's a real experience to what is being floated. 

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah, sure. But it's also our way of thinking about combining the brand of the product experience together with them. What we can add is personalized communication and interaction that could be through an improved sales conversation or creating customer engagement. From everything, getting the correct feeling and vibe in the retail space to be able to have that really pointy and specialized content or communication for any given period of time or any use case in some sense, right?

So you've been doing this for 20 years. I realize you haven't been there the whole 20 years, but the company has been doing it. What has changed? Obviously, there's a lot more adoption of digital in store than there was 20 years ago, but I suspect that your target customers are also a lot more sophisticated and understanding of how to best use this.

Sebastian Kryh: Exactly, and beginning in the early days and as you said, I've been in the company before, for almost four years in different roles but it started out as really tech focused and the technology and the power that could be found 20 years ago was not where it is today, of course. Reading that it took more tech savvy and innovation to make stuff happen.

But we're seeing it more and more moving from really focusing on what the tech is and what the CPU power and stuff is. It’s more about what you can do with it and how you utilize the power that's available. I don't know if that was an answer to your question though, but we're of course seeing it from a perspective of also seeing it being a lot of Windows install or BrightSign installs where we're seeing external media players.

Now of course, we’re seeing the SOC devices being much more capable and powerful and being something that's growing faster, at least for us, than the external media players, which is still a clear majority of all the installs we have but we're getting more and more requests for advanced features to be connected with triggers and sensor to screen itself.

I get a sense in a lot of cases, let's say 15 years ago, if a retailer decided to incorporate digital signage into their in store experience. Quite often there were a whole bunch of screens and put on walls where there was available space. And it seems now that it's way less about the sheer idea of having a bunch of screens in a store. Maybe it's one or two screens but really thoughtfully positioned as, this screen behind the sales counter is for this reason and this one in the entry area is for this other reason and so on.

So, there's a lot more strategy behind it than before.

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That's exactly right. If we're going back a couple of years, it'd be okay. Now the 98 inch screen was put to market and everybody wanted to use it first. It's a cool piece of tech and that's also one thing, of course, that could bring attention but it's just, what do you do with it?

You might get a better experience or the message getting through more, even if it's a 55 inch, right? So we're trying to take a step back from the actual screen size for tech or led wall. This is what is the content and working through a channel strategy. It's not just, what do you want, what's the message and what do you want your end users to see and react to and how you could compile that to be having a synchronized story. 

Also the old ways we've been talking about omnichannel for many years but how are we seeing? What's communicated in the digital world on websites or on social media? How do you bring that in and make it feel natural when it comes in store? So you have a connected customer journey. We're getting more and more of those and what our partners are working towards, it's more and more connected to that journey. 

That's correct. So if I was to ask you, give me a good example of a company that you and your partners are working with, where they're really doing a nice job of applying digital in their stores, without putting you on a spot with the retail and making sure they're ones that you're allowed to talk about.

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah. So what are you saying that you want a partner we're working with or what was your question?

Are there things that are done in retail settings that are always reliably impactful and other ones that have been tried?

And I'm thinking about some interactive things I see that are more like Novelty than actually having an impact. I'm curious what works and what doesn't. I guess it is a shorter way of saying it. 

Sebastian Kryh: Help me understand what you're meaning. 

I have seen some interactive screens put into retail environments, particularly athletic retailing sporting goods stores, where I don't know why they did that other than the simple fact that, Hey, it's an interactive, you can boycott this screen and something will happen versus just the right position, the right sort of scale of screen and everything that just there is nothing fancy about it, it just works.

Sebastian Kryh: And coming back to what we said a couple of minutes ago is that you gotta think about what you want to communicate and what do you want to send and how is that to be used in the flow of the customer journey? So in some sense just getting a touch application or interactivity. Working might sound like a cool thing on the design board, but how it's then implemented if it's not used by the sales team to be a sales companion, for example, how to utilize it then it might be just as you say, might be a gimmick or something that's not really encompassed and used in the day-to-day work life in the retail space.

When you're working with partners, are you directly involved with the customers or are you at a relay point where your partner is talking to the customer and they're then coming back to you and saying, this is the functionality they would also like to have. 

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah. So exactly. So we work with our partners and as I said, from time to time, we are also invited to talk to the brands and to the partner's customers. But many times we only learn of a project or of a brand when we see the order of licenses coming in. So of course, we work closely with our partners to figure out if they're closer to the end customers than we are. They debate on figuring out what's the worst market, what are they feeling or if it's in sync with what our product roadmap is.

And from time to time, of course, we make alterations to it but we really feel it's important for us to own the product roadmap and understand how we want to evolve the product and try to encompass and use the feedback we get from our partners to add features or add workflows, but it might be right.

So we try not to build on the project by project, but in more sense, this is an area where we need to improve or add. When that is built into a product it then can be used by all partners and all customers in some sense. So there's only one version of the product given point.

Are you hearing or seeing much demand for audience measurement for analytics in store analytics? 

Sebastian Kryh: It comes in waves. But yes, it's definitely a thing where we're seeing it and then over in Europe, we've seen that there's different ways of doing it. Going back. We used cameras a while back through legislation, the GDPR and data protection, that's no longer a thing, but definitely for certain projects, that's something that's been used, but not in the majority of the cases.

Is that something you can, uh, provide within the platform or do you work with 3rd parties?

Sebastian Kryh: We would work with 3rd parties to specify that in some sense. What we do is we build the product, which is to then retail focus where that's the market we're aiming for. But we also have a strategy to partner with the best as it's coming with sensors like for audience measurement, whether it be a radar or a camera, what it be.

Then we have a few that we work with, then they will be better at making sure that the sensors are up to par and doing what they should be doing than we do it for them. So then we will partner and the same goes for retail media or do. We also see an increase in interest, especially retail media and how we then work with partners to do more of the advanced campaign management and bidding and such which were not built into our platform.

Is that something you're feeling pressure to have built into your platform? 

Sebastian Kryh: Not feeling pressure to have built into the platform. The partners we're working with and the ones we're talking to, future partners, they see they tend to like the idea of us being really good at what we do. And then when we can plug in or add in.

For example, the retail media is a partner to us or software that does that, they seem to, in some sense, honest on what we are really good at. We feel that we don't have to solve all the problems in the world, and then we can take a niche product like that and add that.

And then the offering gets and everybody's on top of the game. 

I've wondered a lot about the whole retail media space because it's been extremely buzzy for the last year or so. And everybody's talking about it, but it still seems like the in store digital piece is just a little tiny piece of it.

It gets mentioned, but I don't know that it's really front and center in many plans 

Sebastian Kryh: I would say we're seeing an increased talk about retail media and I guess that's also coming in from when we're seeing articles written about the value of it and how you can monetize your network.

But when it comes to rollouts, yes, there are definitely a few, but the majority is still the in-store experience and making sure you can communicate in a good and efficient way to your crowds as a branch. And when you're managing larger networks of thousands of screens, then you want to make sure that you have a platform or a CMS that, that works with that has those capabilities of everything from provisioning to remote management, software updates, of course, all these things that we sometimes take for granted.

There's better ways of doing it than ours. I think we got a good set of features in that area. 

One of the reasons that retail media is being buzzed or is so buzzy is this idea that in the same way that with e-commerce and online retailing, you've got traceability that you understand. 

Somebody came on the site and they saw this and then they bought it. That's a conversion rate that they can establish. It's much harder to do in physical retail. Are you getting requests and pushes to somehow or other create some more visibility in terms of how this promotional spot was seen for this period of time?

Sales went up X amount, based on AB samples, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that you could actually see that by using digital media in store, it had this net positive effect. 

Sebastian Kryh: And in some sense that will be not trying to back out the question. That'd be more for our partner, right? That would sit and talk directly to the brand.

But of course, we are responsible for what goes on screen. Then we would be able to tell, okay, these promotional ads were run at this specific time, like proof of play reports, for example, and then you need to cross reference that with the actual data from the point of sale saying, okay, we did these campaigns in these stores and sales went up 10 percent more than stores that didn't have the promotional ad.

Let's go with that one. But it's more of a combination of us supplying our part and then someone that needs to crunch the data from our partner or from the retailer themselves. 

So there's all kinds of discussions around integration with different kinds of business systems, including point of sale and inventory systems.

Is that something more that your intermediary partner would sort through and you can provide the API for your piece of it in terms of play out logs and everything.

Sebastian Kryh: Usually that’s the way it's done today, where we would be able to feed. Our partner would be able to create the concept for the retail or they would be able to pull that data from us and that’s what has actually been played and then add other parts of information to it.

So we're not trying to hold on to the information, okay, we need all the pieces of the puzzle to be important. This is what we contributed with and we know we create value by it and then if you want to, you could add other dimensions to it, like quality sales, for example. Then do that math and see what's the ROI, for example.

And there's definitely those projects or those robots that's measured on ROI, but I would say that the vast majority are not based on, okay, if we invest this much in screens, we want to see this much in sales. There are definitely those, but the most of them are coming back to the experience and feeling they want to create in their physical retail space and how can we make that better?

And to that end, how do they know it's better? How do they, how do you measure experience? 

Sebastian Kryh: That's a good question. I guess that's done in multiple ways from just the brand being feeling that this is the message we want to present, how we want to be seen and how we're doing it, and I know they've been doing surveys with customers saying, okay how do you feel this communication and this experience was compared to something else. But in some sense, that's not something that we are able to help much with, but then being able to work through our partners, creating the concepts, right?

But I guess other parts where we're seeing also operational efficiencies is that when you integrate to like PIM or the dam systems where we can trigger content and then such, make sure that we have the right content running on screens depending on availability of stock or picking up the product photos and making sure that the content that's on screen is automated by a template instead of someone having to click around and drag files and pick the right naming of the product. 

So those guys can focus on doing the analysis and the smartness and then we can have the system automate and create the content in an efficient way.

Are you seeing your end user customers doing much in the back of the house is like staff facing displays versus purely displays that are aimed at retail shoppers. 

Sebastian Kryh: I would say that 90% of the products are focused on the retail floor.

And definitely screens are put in the break rooms and such to display other information. But, as it has been retail focused, the corporate communications part of it. It's not something that we've dug deep into but we have brands and partners using our software for that, of course. 

You can display whatever you want on screen but the workflows and the product tend to look at the retail aspect of it and the floor. 

The project starts with what the shoppers are going to see, not with what the staff are going to see.

Sebastian Kryh: Exactly. That's a good way of putting it.

In terms of retail technology there is a very large ecosystem. There's no end to companies providing different kinds of business systems and everything else into retail. Are you seeing any other technology companies that aren't pure play digital signage that are like POS companies that are starting to market digital signage capability saying, we do these other things for you. We can do this too.

Sebastian Kryh: Yes. We've seen it and I don't have a name in my head right now but we've seen different views on it. There's always these places where we're doing really well, but we're really close to this area.

Why don't we try and do that also? And we're quite confident in our abilities and experience that we are the ones that want to use our products. They want a few extra steps in capabilities within the platform. 

So, if you want really basic capabilities, messaging does not going to change very often at all.

There's no granularity to it. You just put something up in every store and leave it there for a month or something. Then any old system might be able to do that. But if you want any level of sophistication, you've got to go to something that's designed for it. 

Sebastian Kryh: That's a good way of summarizing.

Yes, there's many thousands of CMS out there, but there's when we're talking about the big ones that we maybe see as our competitors, there's more advanced features in it and making sure that you take the operational standpoint also from adding the screen to adding the license and making sure it runs and have the efficiency during that time, but also, when you want to do updates or how you want to monitor the hardware over time, making sure that so we catch errors before they happen, how we can have alarms for players not, of course, not being connected, but also having it content scheduling it's not valid. 

For example, if you have scenarios or tags put in on the screen where we can see, okay, for this period of time, no scenario will be valid.

The content on screen won't show anything, but fallback content, for example. So you want safety features built in to take care of those things or notify you at least of those and that's just one example of just going that extra little bit to make sure that you are taking care of the partners we're working with and also the end customers. 

Many of the partners we work with, of course, have scheduling services. They offer that to the brand and the retailers, but quite a few retailers in our system are changing, updating and adding content together with our partner.

So it needs to work with both the large-scale efficiency of the partner and also with the retailer logging in themselves, adding content to the local store, the local campaign or the regional campaign. 

Are the Nordic companies in Northern Europe your primary market or are you all across Europe?

Sebastian Kryh: We're all across Europe and from early days we've been, of course, very European companies. So Europe has been our major market, but we've been working out of Asia also. We do have business in Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, and then other parts of Southern Asia and been working partly with North America also, mainly Canada and a few cases in the US, which now it's as we talked, it's the magic step to take for a European company to enter the US market. 

At the size we are at now, where we have a lot of good business and a good backbone in Europe, we're getting ready to take the step across the pond. We have a few partners, but we're definitely looking for more partners to help us engage in the U.S. market and the Canadian market for that matter. 

Can you provide some background on how the company is owned and everything now? I'm reluctant to say the name of the owner because I'm going to mispronounce it. So I prefer you to do that.

Sebastian Kryh: Vertiseit and the story behind that was to “advertise it” and we took out the “ad” in the beginning, so it just became Vertiseit. 

All right, because I was thinking about Vertiseit and this and that.

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah, but that's the story of it. And Vertiseit is today the holding company for two companies, Dise being one and Grsssfish being the other and..

GrassFish is in Austria.

Sebastian Kryh: They're an Austrian company founded in Austria, exactly, but now fully owned by Vertiseit. Vertiseit’s vision is to connect the world of retail and wants to be the leading platform company within digital in-store or in-store experience management Vertiseit purchased or acquired Dise in 2017 and started a journey of morphing the Dise journey from being a lot of on-prem and perpetual licenses to going into pure SaaS and focusing on the retail space and also clinging really tough too and true to the partner channel and how we only work with partners and reward loyal partners and coming into the other company within the group which has their own CMS or their own platform which they've been working on and they were acquired by the group in 2020. 

For a few years after, they work with partners, not always through partners to serve the brands with added services as agency and agency services. So it's really the channel that differs the companies.

Do the technologies get co-mingled at all? Or do you pretty much operate independently?

Sebastian Kryh: We operate independently. So that we're two different companies and two separate softwares. But of course, some of the tech guys might talk, okay, how can we solve this? And how can we do that within the group or the market play or customer play? 

It’s two different companies and we have a Chinese wall in between us. 

What happens when salespeople from both companies get a sniff at the same opportunity? 

Sebastian Kryh: Then we both go at it and that's happened from time to time. There was one quite recently where the Grassfish heard of it and also a Dise partner heard of it independently and both ventured into the opportunity and went for it and it's handled as two separate things. So we fight for ourselves. 

And the boss just says, you guys just be adults about it and let the best one win? 

Sebastian Kryh: Exactly. But of course, it comes down to differences in the product test with all CMSs. They have slight differences in everything.

And the one that won had the best offer with the best product match. So there's no decision made in top management. For this opportunity, we will put this one forward. If it's out there and if both are within their different channels markets, market strategies and waiting for the same then that's allowed and the brand will then choose which one they think is best for them and that's the one that should win. 

All right, last question. What might we see out of Dise in 2024? What's coming? 

Sebastian Kryh: We've been working on the CMS. We're getting really good rates about that and being more intuitive than ever. And I'd just like to mention just one thing before going to that is, we did a demonstration of the CMS for a now assigned partner. But a couple of months back was a potential partner. After demoing the CMS for 25 minutes and their response was, ‘Congratulations’. 

That's something we took back as being really proud of. Of course, they had a few questions on details, but it's really intuitive and really nice to use.

But what we see in 2024 is we'll add more to the playout part of it and how we can cover more operating systems as we're running today, the soft platforms and Windows platforms to do improvements there. So, that's a part of the CMS; of course, it's continuous improvement, but I think you'll see more and larger improvements or larger changes in the playout area. 

And do you have a standard ISE? 

Sebastian Kryh: We do have a standard ISE. We'd love for you to, of course, come by so we can show you some of the launch and the changes in ISE. So just take your time and swing by… 

And show your latest pots of pans.

Sebastian Kryh: Exactly. Right. 

All right. 

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah. Please come by and watch new things. 

Terrific. All right. Thank you so much for spending the time with me. 

Sebastian Kryh: Thank you so much for having me, David. It's been a pleasure.

Dave Stewart, Design Huddle

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Everybody who is active and experienced in the digital signage space knows the big evergreen challenge for solutions providers and end-users is content production - keeping programming on screens fresh and relevant, but also attractive.

A lot of companies in the ecosystem - and not just the software guys - have some degree of template libraries and finished content that can be updated or pushed straight to screens. That's a piece of the solution. But there's also a demand for tools that make it easy and efficient to produce good-looking material for screens.

In looking over the exhibitor list for the upcoming DSE trade show, I came across Design Huddle, and wondered, "Who is that and what do they do?"

It's a small West Coast US startup that has B2B graphic design software that allows brands, agencies, and other platforms to create what it describes as lockable digital, video, print, and presentation templates for their users. There are some similarities to solutions like Canva, but also a lot of distinctions. The one that would particularly interest a lot of tech companies in this industry is the ability to fully integrate and white label the Design Huddle toolset inside something like a CMS.

I haD a great chat with CEO and co-founder Dave Stewart, who is based (I'm jealous) in Huntington Beach, California.

Yeah, there's LA traffic, but it's lovely by the water ...

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Dave, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me what the Design Huddle is all about? Because it's unfamiliar to me. 

Dave Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. Ultimately, we are an enterprise focused on software as a service platform that focuses on templating and content creation in an easy and accessible way. We're definitely API-first, so we have a big focus on platform integrations where our customers are programmatically creating content, but then we're also really focused on end-user experience so people who are actually designing, whether that's static content or motion content in a browser, are able to really easily fill in pieces of a video template or create content really for any purpose.

What kind of content would they be creating in the context of digital signage, which is obviously what I'm interested in? 

Dave Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we were actually really surprised. We're relatively new to digital signage, and within the last year, we had to get up to speed ultimately because a couple of players in this industry came to us and really expressed, “Hey, content is a big issue for us, right? We can sell these really expensive screens and they're great, but our customers are just really struggling with what are we going to put on them and how's that going to look good, right? We can have a great-looking screen without good-looking content, so there's a problem.” 

So, I've been educating ourselves on this very recently, and it's really a combination of things like static content where it's like, I'm just displaying basic information that might be somewhat real-time or just informational, then also, motion content for things like, imagine the signs that are up on a football stadium or in a basketball gym, where you want to show basic animated content, that's talking about whatever the context is for that sport or things like that. So it's been a little bit of everything, but imagine anything that can be shown on a sign, someone's creating that somewhere, right? 

Right. Is the core idea that the end user, the operator would be selecting from a template library or are they creating stuff from scratch or how does it work?

Dave Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. We are actually just the software. We're not actually playing in the content game ourselves. We just make it really easy to create content on our platform, and generally, that's going to mean importing from existing design files and animation files that you've created elsewhere.

We can import PDFs and maintain all the layers. So any static content that's generated in any Adobe product or Figma, we can essentially just import it in and maintain that. In After Effects, you can now export to a format called Lottie files and Lottie files can be imported into our system and now essentially we can have really rich animations generating After Effects that are really easily customizable by an end user and also programmatically via API. So that's the starting point for most of our customers is generating their content on their side, whether they're contracting with an agency or they have a team internally, it's building these things. The main thing they're focused on is, we just don't want to have to do these customs per customer. I was super surprised to find out that some of the initial interest from us, these hardware companies have content teams that are literally generating content individually for their customers and to me, that was crazy. but they had to, because that was the way they were going to sell their hardware. 

So we're just changing that a bit where it's like, just do that once, right? Generate some templates for them and then give them the power, empower them to actually make the changes for themselves, or, again, do it programmatically for them.

So I'm curious. Is this the sort of thing that is best suited to somebody who's already a motion graphics designer, an animator, somebody with quite a deep set of creative skills or maybe technical skills? 

Dave Stewart: I would say a big focus of ours is when it comes to who we are going to sell to. Definitely, software companies are high up on that list who have a general system that's trying to do a lot of things and specifically in digital signage, that might be a CMS or any of these other acronyms that we've come to find out exist here where they're trying to do a lot of things. We're just the content piece, and we feel like we can really stand out by creating a best-in-breed, seamlessly integrated white-labeled product that can fit into their platform in a way that feels proprietary but adds best-of-breed, innovative content creation ability.

Now, when it comes to who's creating that content whether they have an internal design team with some expertise or whether they contract an agency just to initially create them a set of templates, it can work either way. I will also say, though, that we do work with brands directly, where brands are creating branded content that might be shown on lots of screens but they want to empower regular users to be able to make changes to those templates while still adhering to brand consistency and their brand guidelines and so like our locking feature is big in that situation because someone creates a template but then now anybody can actually make basic adjustments to it.

So it sounds like it's a little reminiscent of what I've been hearing in the last year about AI and how generative AI isn't going to really replace designers, but it does add a considerable layer of efficiency in that you can remove some of the drudgery and some of the building block stuff and automate that or streamline that but it's not meant to just take designers out of the equation.

Dave Stewart: No, definitely not. I feel like we're really excited about AI and everyone says that, but I'll get more specific for you. I think, for us right now, we actually just sent out an AI survey to our customers to try to prioritize the main things that they're really interested in.

For us, the basic stuff, like background removal, like removing background from images, which we already do, and background from videos. You have things like speech-to-text to provide like auto captioning and things like that. Obviously, generative AI, where you're prompting via text to say, “Hey, I want an image that shows this, or I want to alter this one image to include this”, all those things fit in really well with what we do, but where we want to take that even further is, okay, let me generate a whole bunch of template ideas for you that are basic iteration changes from a set of templates that we may train a model on. So we're actually gonna take all your content you've made and the holy grail for us is, let us shoot out and show you a bunch of previews of a bunch of similar-looking templates that follow the same kind of styles, maybe themes or layouts.

But in a new way you're still starting with the designer that needs to set the standard but you're able to generate content in a much quicker way and remove a lot of the monotonous activity that's usually involved there. 

So what would be involved in using it?

Dave Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. So typically what will happen is, again, two sides of our business. We have a platform side where we're going to be very hands-on with our customers and integrate this into some platform that they already have, where there are already users where they need to add on templating or improve some existing content creation suite that they have inside that.

So, we would inherit those users and they seamlessly became part of that platform. The other side of the business is, okay, their turnkey solution where we might work with an agency or brand directly. We white label it and they log into a portal that like we create, but it's white labeled for you on your domain.

and the idea is that a user is just signing up and accessing a template in a way where you are just a distribution mechanism to provide them content that way. Either way, it's going to be in the context of a browser, whether that's on desktop or mobile and generally it's going to be filling out a template that someone has gotten you, let's call it 80 percent of the way there.

Okay. So like you were saying earlier, it's not really that you would go in and say, I want to do a 15-second promotional spot for a car dealer and I would go find a template that seems to be about retail or car dealers or whatever it may be and I can monkey around with that. This is more important than what you already have and automating and making it much more efficient to do that sort of thing.

Dave Stewart: Honestly, I think it's both. We have some customers that definitely fall more in the former, for sure, where they have more generic content that they're trying to reach a lot of people with and they're creating more generic content that could be used for different purposes while still allowing the user to really personalize it for themselves.

But then, we also have customers that are trying programmatically. 

So, let's walk through the car dealer one then. If I'm Bob's shovels in Fairbanks, Alaska or whatever it may be and I want to create five ads for our fall clearance event and I don't have Motion graphics animator on my team or anything like that. What would I do? 

Dave Stewart: Yeah. No, absolutely. So in that situation, again, they're not necessarily like someone that small isn't going to be our customer directly. We're going to inherit them from the fact that they work with some other company, whether that's an agency or they have digital signage. Let's imagine that.

They bought a digital sign and part of that came a subscription to some sort of content creation suite and we just designed how it all just so happens to power that content creation suite. That would be the scenario where we might be involved with a small business like that. In that situation, that would entail that the agency or the hardware company that is providing that software suite has created some basic templates for this type of customer, which is exactly what we're seeing happen by the way. 

and again, I was very surprised about this, that these hardware companies would actually have content teams doing this but that's exactly what's happening.

and so, the content teams are just really excited that they don't have to do super personalizing custom graphics, both motion and static for the customer anymore. They can just create templates and let the customer have them themselves. 

So one of the main reasons that end users and solutions providers to some degree struggle with all of this in terms of content is cost. Agency costs are higher and everything else and the idea of these kinds of tools is attractive for a number of reasons. But one of them is, this will lower my costs of producing content. I assume you guys have done some sort of calculations to say to your potential customers that if you use our stuff, you can potentially save this kind of money.

Dave Stewart: Yeah. Ultimately, not that we're in the business of replacing designers that you might already have on staff, but most of the time we're getting brought in a situation where there's a design team and currently what they're super focused on is super monotonous, non creative work where they're taking a Photoshop file and making basic text changes and dropping in images.

and think about the salary of someone like that and what you're paying for. We would say, we're not trying to replace that person but let's focus that, some of that person on something actually creative, that's going to move the needle for your business, not on this monotonous work that could absolutely be done by the user themselves in a simple templating solution. So, that's how we'd approach it and so when we talk about cost savings, again, you could think about the fact that, Hey, this salary is gone, but ultimately we'd say, no, let's just repurpose that salary for something useful. Okay. 

So do you want to go back to skill sets?

What realistically do you need to use this? You're going to be a designer or something already? 

Dave Stewart: Yeah. I would say, look, Canva is a really interesting thing to look at because Canva came on the scene and showed everyone that a platform like this in the browser can be really easy to use and we can remove a lot of the friction and difficulty that's been associated with static and motion content in the past.

And so Canva has really educated the market on what's possible and that anybody can kind of design following templates and ultimately, I would say, while we're not trying to be Canva whatsoever, there's clearly a lot of overlap in what we do in terms of a simple user interface, a really easy to create templating solution.

The big differentiation there is clearly that we're fully white labels and we're embedding this into some proprietary solution, typically in a way that really well fits into that ecosystem, whatever it might be in a seamless way. 

So, how did the company get started? 

Dave Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned, digital signage is relatively new for us and we're really excited about it, but ultimately, we operate in other verticals, so the opportunity originally was more like as we do in terms of media types, we support print, even large format prints.

For instance, we were at ISA earlier this year and our focus going to that was actually more on non-digital billboards and things like that. That was actually really interesting, by the way, as an aside, because, on the plane ride there, some people behind me were talking about one of our larger customers who’s actually a major player in digital signage and it opened my eyes to, wow, this is a much bigger company than I even realized.

and they're having content issues. There must be lots of additional opportunities here. So, going into that show, again we shifted and pivoted. It's like, Hey, you know what? Digital signage is actually a bigger opportunity than we thought. But to answer your question, again, starting in some of those other media types, we just saw the need for really simple white labeled, digital content creation, whether that be for ads, whether that's just basic social media graphics and posts and basic print collateral.

There are lots of sites that are just offering like, whether that's a printing website or whether that's an agency just providing content to their users. Content is content and at the end of the day and it can be all sorts of things. We've really just focused on how do we create a really consistent experience for both motion and static?

How can we really seamlessly tie together? Even like print and digital content in a really simple to use easy editor and that has ended up applying to lots of industries and it's been really exciting to find that out 

In terms of the business itself, what would be the breakdown roughly of what you're doing for print, what you're doing for online, what you're doing for digital display, like digital signage is digital signage? 

Is digital signage a big component of it, or is it just something you're trying to educate the market on and grow?

Dave Stewart: Yeah. Honestly, like I mentioned, we've just gotten into digital signage recently, so clearly it's not a huge piece of the pie yet. We do have very large goals in digital signage Though, we actually do see digital signage being a pretty decent slice of the pie, within the next two years, but as of right now, I'd say that it's hard because of the number of customers versus actual revenue. A lot of our revenue is tied to digital, for sure. So, there are a lot of use cases for ads, social media graphics, things like that, which were our bread and butter. We have a lot of print-focused customers. The revenue is not as high there.

There's just more of them, quantity-wise. But I would say that both of those are fairly client counts evenly split. It's definitely skewed more revenue-wise toward digital and what's been really interesting is a lot of these digital-focused, even with social media. They are the ones that push us into video, right?

So, like motion content, as it pertains to digital signage, we were already creating HD-quality video just to try to serve that digital market with a priority to know about digital signage. So it's been really interesting to see that a lot of the things that we've done can apply in other areas and it's really just about how we can make a better mousetrap when it comes to end user simplicity of content customization and then programmatic API first control of a platform like this? 

Are you constrained at all in terms of formats and resolutions and things like that are obviously day to day things in digital signage?

Dave Stewart: Yeah, what's really cool is that from the beginning, we've made it really easy to do basic resizing and that an end user could actually resize. So, if there's a slightly different aspect ratio as we can obviously find very frequently on digital signage. Our algorithm will automatically move things around for you and try to keep the design kind of integrity maintained.

Now that doesn't work perfectly when you have huge aspect ratio shifts, like clearly if you're going portrait to landscape, it's not going to necessarily work as well. But yeah, it is a big component of this. I would say that on the other side of it, on the programmatic side, we will have customers that will create different templates for slightly different aspect ratios and then ultimately they'll use our API to populate all of them at once with the same data. So you're now spitting out a whole bunch of creativity at one time, leveraging the same data images, text colors, all of it. Now you've just generated a whole pack for users that might have signs of different sizes.

So in terms of outputs, you can do HD video. 

Dave Stewart: Absolutely. Yeah. Now we haven't gotten into a 4k yet. There hasn't been demand because typically 4k is going to be created on professional desktop software. We can do it and we are thinking we're going to get pushed into that.

and honestly, it's just going to take one customer that kind of just tells us they really need it to pull the trigger on it, but absolutely, 1080p video we've been doing from the beginning. 

And are there any other issues around the output files? Like the video is 30 frames per second, that sort of thing?

Dave Stewart: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we're trying to follow all the industry standards there and honestly, even if a client has very specific requirements when it comes to Codecs and it comes to specific quality of specific items. We're a very customizable platform like we have settings for all of those things that we can match what you need.

One of the bigger things has been transparent video. So, we actually are one of the few browser tools that actually supports transparent video, which is difficult because it's not cross browser. There's not one format that works cross browser on that and so importing transparent video files and maintaining them is obviously huge for things like background removal and things like that.

But that's been a big one because combining that with our support for Lottie files, which I mentioned Lottie files earlier, but they're really exciting what you can do with them and that plus just bit motion clips that you've either pulled from our stock libraries or that you've shot yourself.

Putting all that together, there's a lot of really cool things you can do and they're now attainable by a user who's not a professional motion graphic artist. So yeah, it's really cool. What's possible now. 

So I'm very curious about the programmatic piece, and I think for people listening, it's important to understand we're not talking about programmatic advertising here where you're talking about programmatic content creation.

Dave Stewart: Yeah, and I will say the overlap there is we do have some clients that are in ads and they will actually use our template platform to do A/B testing on those ads where we'll pass in slightly different colors, slightly didn't copy, to generate a bunch of creatives at once.

That's our overlap in the ad space, but yes, when we talk about programmatic, I really just talk about programmatic content creation and the fact that with our API, you can generate all sorts of variations of content very quickly, including videos. We have some clients that don't even show our editor to the user.

It's really just about, Hey, I want to generate a video that's 15 seconds from this template where it incorporates the customer's brand, their colors and their tagline and their company name. So, spit this out and show them this. It's that easy, right? You don't even have to have them open the editor and do it themselves.

Can you give me a good example of how. You could use APIs and data tables and everything else to automate the production of a whole bunch of media pretty quickly. 

Dave Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. So if you are at a campaign that you were pushing, where you're really just trying to get out consistent messaging and you were needing to do that again, I won't even limit this to digital signage because a lot of our clients will choose us because of the fact that we can operate there and across their other marketing collateral at the same time. 

But the idea would be if the messaging is the same and you already have branded templates that are the starting point for a lot of different content you might be creating, great. Pass in the mess, the specific messaging, pass in specific keywords to generate images or pass in the specific images directly. Let us fill all of those in at once and generate a whole campaign pack for you in one shot.

What about for scale? Let's say you have, I don't know, a retailer that has 800 locations across North America and they want to be hyperlocal about the marketing or messaging or, “Here's our store manager for this location” or whatever. They have a template. They want to knock out 800 unique versions of this or with some variations on it.

What kind of time is involved in doing that? 

Dave Stewart: It's a great question. I'm glad you brought that model because we were actually operating in the franchise space before we even looked into digital signage at all because franchises specifically that have these locations all over the place had this issue with print, had this issue with social media that's been around for a very long time and so they would come to us because what will happen is those store managers or locations are either one requesting individual personalized graphics from the corporate design team on a very regular basis and kind of and completely, taking off all their time doing that, or two, they're going rogue and building off-brand content and it looks terrible and the marketing manager is finding it online and is just pissed off. 

So one of those two things is happening and where we would come in is look, the only way that you're going to solve that is if you make it easy for them, because if it's not easy, they're going to try and do it themselves. or if they have to wait for you to do it for them, they will do it themselves. So the only way to do it is, Hey, how do we make this such an easy process that anybody can come in and feel like this is going to be the fastest way anyway and it's also going to look great. Why not use that? So ultimately what will happen is, again, the brand manager, corporate team, or whoever is going to create the template. Ultimately, that franchise, franchisee, that store manager, whoever it is, is going to log into the system and they're going to find the template. 

If they just and , most of the time, these are super locked down. So I have this template and ultimately, I just want to let the store put their store hours right here and maybe some sort of sale information on a specific percentage discount on something, whatever that thing might be and so literally, the user is just going to click that, change the text and then export it, right? It doesn't take any time whenever you've really focused on the template. 

So yeah, they can't go in and change it to Comic Sans or put in a picture of their dog or whatever. 

Dave Stewart: No, our locking feature is something we spent a lot of time on. You can take it very far. Most of our clients will lock down almost everything, but we've made it to where you have full control over exactly what users can and can't do. 

You were talking earlier about Canva and there are a few kinds of platforms out there that are variations on this, or do some of what you're doing. I'm also thinking about Promo and Shaker Media over in Korea.

When you get asked about your company versus those kinds of companies, particularly Canva, what do you say? 

Dave Stewart: Yeah, no, absolutely. It's really interesting because, again, we don't really compete with Canva, like even with Canva Enterprise solution, we don't really compete with them because ultimately, customers are coming to us because they want this white-labeled and embeddable into their own platform or make it seem proprietary. They want to have control. 

Right now, when you go to Canva, you have no control, right? They control the interface. They control the layout. They control the flow. You have zero say in terms of what the user then can do and where they can go and go off crazy and get lost inside the Canva ecosystem. We're like the opposite, right? The whole goal of this is you make it what you want. You show exactly what you want. You lock down what you want and it looks like it's yours and that's why people are going to come to us. 

A lot of overlap and functionality, like you said, when it comes to content creation, features and things like that, we definitely have focused on more of some of the more niche-specific things that Canva hasn’t, like for instance, for print, we have full CMYK capability, Canva doesn't really. It's a conversion process for them, but we started from the ground up. For large format prints, we support really large format printing for things like large banners and things. That's not something you're really going to do on Canva. For video, this idea that we can support, like these, Lottie files and transparent video, like Canva just launched Lottie files, but their implementation is really simple where you can only really use basic, almost GIF-type content. We've taken it way further. We just go deeper on the more professional aspects and then, again, are more focused on the white-label, embeddable nature of it. 

You have a booth of some kind at Digital Signage Experience. I assume you're there to start building partnerships and creating awareness that you exist.

If I'm a CMS software company, that is probably the best example, what kind of work is involved if I say, “This is awesome, I'd love to integrate this into my overall solutions offer and have it white labeled.” Is that a three-month journey, a twelve-month journey, or allocating five people to work on it for a month or just how does all that come together?

Dave Stewart: Yeah, that's a great question. Now we're really excited about DSE coming up. This is the first time we're even attending and we're really excited to exhibit based on, again, what we've heard and who's going to be there. So super excited about that and I'd say that when it comes to who we're trying to reach there and understanding how it would work to work with us, for a CMS company, honestly, our messaging, you'll see this in our booth is all about and we feel like you've ever actually tried to do some level of content creation already as part of a platform and so our messaging is mostly, “Hey, let's upgrade that. Let's make that a little better. Let's improve that inside of your system because we can do that and make it still feel like it's yours.” 

So that is our focus in terms of messaging to them and I would say that in terms of the actual implementation for a company like that, we have a lot of walk-before-you-run type solutions when it comes to integrations. So a lot of our customers will actually start by initially just using our kind of turnkey portal that we have out of the box and then getting their initial customer buying on there and starting to create the templates that way, before actually doing the deep integration. While they're doing that, they're slowly starting to build the integration in and they could do a really basic integration where they're mostly just embedding all of our components in a simple way and then facilitating fairly basic workflows and then that's like a starting point. Then we would say that the next step is, okay, how do we incorporate some of the other data that you have in your CMS to do the automatic population of content where we can take event-specific information or location-specific information and start injecting it automatically, leveraging our API.

So that would be like a second step and then how do we make sure that this feels seamless at every part of your workflow, maybe that's a third step. So we would say that a really basic integration takes a team one or two months, typically, just to get started and then we would say that if you're doing something really deep, maybe a few months after that, over time, starting to get it ingrained more and more.

And what are the commercial aspects of this? If I am a CMS software company, I think this is really intriguing. What's it going to cost me to work with Design Huddle? 

Dave Stewart: Yeah. So again, being enterprise-focused, we found that there are no two customers alike. We actually assign what we call personas to their end users and we say, we have some customers, like their users come into the system once a year and we have some customers where they're using the system every day. We can't price that the same; it's going to be a little bit different. When we talk about API-driven fully use cases where there's no end-user or direct interaction with our editor, that's a little simpler because we can just price it based on API activity and it's fairly straightforward. But when we talk about end users, no users are the same, so we actually do a pretty custom proposal process for customers and we dig into their specific use cases and try to assign a persona to these users. Still, ultimately, the idea would be that, in a user-based kind of pricing proposal like that, the more users you bundle, the bigger discount there is and then we have overage tiers where the cost per user gets cheaper as they grow. 

The idea is that we're scaling together and things get cheaper and you get to get more profitable over time. 

But for the purposes of referencing this, I'm sure there are people listening, thinking this is really interesting, but is this going to cost me like a quarter million dollars or something? 

Dave Stewart: Oh, no! 

It's $500 for Starter, $750 a month for Pro and then you've got Enterprise and as you said, that depends on all kinds of variables. 

Dave Stewart: Yeah and each one of those, just to be clear, includes a certain number of users, right? and the number of users that's included, again, is getting into what I was just trying to describe as it can vary a little bit. But yes, we're definitely not a quarter-million-dollar product, starting point, right? We have a basic setup fee, which is usually in the low thousand s and then, in the hundreds typically for most initial engagements or low thousand s. 

For that setup, that's because you're going to spend all this time working with your partner companies to sort out how to do this.

Dave Stewart: We are very hands-on. I know a lot of companies say that, but honestly, for us, it's a huge waste of our time to spend a lot of time with you upfront, try to get it going and then it does not succeed. So we do everything we possibly can at the beginning of the engagement to make sure that you have the tools you need.

We actually create custom documentation for every customer that lays out exactly what they need to do based on a consultation session where we talk through the specific platform, what they need to do, what they're trying to accomplish, give them tips and tricks and advice based on what we've seen successful for other customers. That's all part of it. In addition, obviously, training for content creation, like getting your templates in the system. All of that is very front-loaded and so that's where our setup fee is really focusing on that initial time we're going to spend with you to make sure that it's successful.

Yeah, I've certainly seen some setup fees from software companies where I thought, okay, that's just a cash grab. But that definitely doesn't sound like the case here.

Dave Stewart: No, it really isn't. Honestly, we're probably doing that at a cost, to be honest and then the idea is that once you're in, it's a great thing, like as much as we make our team available around the clock to answer, to always be around support wise, like we hear, as you can imagine, less and less from clients over time, right?

So if we can make them successful at the beginning, They're really easy long term and we're just growing together and they're happy and, then, all of our support costs are front-loaded for that reason. 

You're a virtual company, West Coast. How many people are in the company?

Dave Stewart: So yeah, the latest count is, I'm about to hire another one, so around 12-13. We’re relatively small. 

Canva's got 3,500 or something like that? 

Dave Stewart: Oh yeah and it's fun, right? We're a really nimble team. You know, this is my second go-around. My last company, I took it to about 150 employees before I exited, so we're still pretty early on our journey here and that's really exciting for us because we see so much opportunity in this. 

I do expect this to grow a lot in the next two years. but we are a lean team of seasoned and professional software professionals and we're able to do a lot with a fairly small team right now. 

And is this bootstrapped or venture-backed?

Dave Stewart: Yeah, great question. My previous company actually started in the 2009 timeframe when everything crashed and there was really no money going around the way that it was capitalized. It ended up biting me in the end, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. 

So going into this, my partners and I were really trying to bootstrap this from the beginning. I wanted full control over how this is going to work. That said, very early on, we had a large company come to us and say, “Hey, we really want to use you guys, but we're too worried about whether you're going to be around next year.”

That company is Smartsheet, right? They own a company called Brand folder, which was the one interested in us. Smartsheets is a public company, they’re very large, so they ended up becoming a small minority partner. They did basically a strategic round with us. That's a very small percentage, but ultimately it gives a lot of people a little bit more comfortability working with us because they're our backstop. The only reason that they invested was really just to make sure that we were going to stick around because they were going to be so invested in us.

So they're there for that reason that said we are fully, sustainably and profitable at this point. So we, actually, are currently setting our own. Of course, we're in a really good position and we're excited about that coming from my previous experience.

If people are going to DSE, they'll be able to find you on the exhibit floor and I know you're coming to the mixer; and if they want to find you online, how do they do that?

Dave Stewart: Yeah, absolutely. They can definitely check out our website, designhuddle.com. You can reach out to schedule some time with us.

We are doing some of the DSE kind of promotional material. You may have just seen an email about us there where you can schedule some time with us at the show. but yeah, we would love to hear from you. We'd love to talk with everyone. As I mentioned, we're excited to learn more about this industry and get deeper into it and we'd love to have all the conversations we need to figure that out.

Great. All right, thank you, Dave. Much appreciated. 

Dave Stewart: Awesome. Thanks so much, Dave. It was a pleasure.

Jon Niermann, Loop TV

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Bars and restaurants have long been a targeted venue for digital OOH media start-ups, the attraction being scale, dwell time and lots of products and services that could be put in front of people sitting around having a drink or three.

But there's been a lot of roadkill through the years, because selling in to these kinds of venues was time-consuming and hard, the cost of installs was substantial, and most of the operators didn't want to pay for anything.

Much of that has changed, except for the evergreen fact that venue operators are highly attracted to free, with benefits.

A couple of ambitious start-ups have emerged in recent years chasing the space, and arguably the most aggressive has been the LA firm Loop Media, which markets a service called Loop TV. The selling proposition is very straightforward and familiar - qualified venues get a free media player and free video and music content.

What's different from the past is Loop's service is all built around streaming, and uses the connectivity and TVs already in a venue. So the capital cost to Loop is just an Android set-top box, and that gets put in a box or envelope and sent to the venue - which then plugs it in, connects to the Internet and uses an activation code to get things rolling. Minimal hardware costs and zero labor.

The company is now north of 71,000 screens, with venues in all 50 US states. And it's now expanding beyond the U.S.

I had a great chat with CEO and founder Jon Niermann, talking about the company, how ads are sold, what content resonates, and how he found his way from high-level executive jobs with Disney and Electronic Arts into connected TVs in places like bars, health clubs and small retail.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

John, thank you for joining me. Can you give me the rundown of what Loop TV is all about? 

Jon Niermann: Sure Dave, you bet. We provide streaming TV for businesses. It's free, ad-supported or you could do a subscription if you like, but a majority of the businesses are free ad-supported. Think about what you do at home as a consumer using Roku or perhaps Firestick and then do streaming on that. The difference is you're watching TV series and movies primarily. In public venues, like we support, it's premium short-form content, Think of music videos. We're the largest provider of music videos, for example, across the nation. So very contextualized, customizable type of content. 

What's the business model?

Jon Niermann: So we provide it for free, it's ad-supported. Especially coming out of the pandemic, a lot of these public venues were looking for ways to cut costs. So what we've done is we've taken the cost of what you might have to provide for cable and satellite, for digital signage if you're doing menu boards for licensing if you're doing it correctly and we've taken that all away and put it into the loop player. If you don't mind showing ads, which a lot of public venues don't, because they're already doing that anyway, you could get this content for free. 

Our model then, is the ads that we get for the content that we work with various ad supply partners, or if it's a subscription, then we have a set price per month if you don't want ads to change the vibe of your venue. 

I'm guessing a hell of a lot of people are willing to have ads if they don't have to expend the operating expenses on the service. 

Jon Niermann: You guessed right, it’s over 90%. That's typically the way the model goes and people are more than happy to have that experience because like I said, you're out there anyway, you're partially distracted at a bar and restaurants or the doctor's office, or you're just captive. So they don't really mind it as much as they do at home ironically. 

What's the footprint that you have right now? 

Jon Niermann: We're in all 50 states. We're in Canada, we're testing in Australia, New Zealand, and soon in the UK. But we started in the US here in 2020, we rolled out and we've got all the major metro areas. So we've got anything as small as a corner pub all the way up to a university campus. Think of everything in between. It could be an airport, it could be a mall, It could be a gymnasium. You think of it as a public venue and that's what we cover. 

And does it tend to tilt quite a bit to bars and pubs instead of fitness facilities? 

Jon Niermann: The largest percentage of our business for sure are bars and restaurants.

But gyms, I'd say are probably one of the top three, doctor's offices are great. For gyms, think of it this way, we provide music. So even if you're at a place where you watch sports and you have multiple screens, chances of having one of those screens on audio is pretty low. So venues will still play music. So why not have a screen showing music videos, you just play it overhead and it covers that aspect of the business. So really anything. 

If you could think of changing your oil in a Jiffy Lube, for example, thinking of sick of the junk that they have on some of the TVs, you like sitting there in a bar and having Judge Judy scowl at you, Dave, it's no fun. You don't need that. You're out having a good time. You just don't need Wolf Blitzer, it just doesn't kill the vibe. 

And do you hear that from your venue operators, they just want something that's just inoffensive? It's not Fox News. It's not CNN or MSNBC, and it's not Judge Judy or anything. It's just providing passive entertainment. 

Jon Niermann: Exactly. It really enhances the environment, so I talked earlier about contextualizing. If you're at an Italian restaurant, and you want nothing but Italian music or Sinatra and drone footage of Italy all day, you could do that. So it really just adds to the atmosphere.

And if you've got local news or something playing, a bunch of talking heads. It's not exactly that escapism moment that you're looking for when you're going out and enjoying that time away from reality. 

You mentioned that it can cut out some of the costs of digital signage. Do you enable a venue operator to have some time to put in, such as Thursdays are happy hours, starting at three and running until seven or whatever?

Jon Niermann: Absolutely, and it's super easy to just get on your laptop. It's very intuitive how to walk through it and throw your logo on the screen. So if you're Billy's bar and Grill. You got the old Billy's logo up at the corner and happy hour, as you said, every Tuesday and Wednesday night, on Saturdays we've got Billy and the Beaters here on Saturday.

So everything that you used to do with digital signage, you could have crawlers underneath. You could have full screens. You could have a split screen. You're able to do that with your Loop system, all part of it for free. 

That was going to be my question. It’s not a fee-based one that's included in what you're doing if you get the media player for free in the whole bit. 

Jon Niermann: Exactly. So we provide the media player for free. We try to make it as very low cost and low barrier as possible for people just to plug this Loop player up and get going. 

The players are Android boxes, right?

Jon Niermann: Yes. Correct. 

So low cost. When you do a deployment, all you're really doing is sticking in a UPS envelope or whatever and sending it off to the site and you're done. 

Jon Niermann: Yeah, that's it. And if you think about how, a lot of these bars and restaurants, especially worked in the past and still many of them today. You've got these giant AV racks full of computers and big expensive equipment that's bulky, and our players like it a little, it's about the size of a Roku player and Apple TV. You can Velcro it to the back of your screen. You can put it on a rack underneath. It's just something you're used to, and it's odd because this really never existed over the past few years until then because it's just the AV stuff, but everybody's used to using that at home. So it's quite easy for them to take that into their businesses and get it hooked up. 

Yeah, if you buy an Apple TV box and plug it into the back of your TV, then it loads and you find the application. In this case, you'd find a Loop app, and then there's probably an activation code or something. 

Jon Niermann: Yeah. We have for us, you have to have a specific Loop player. So we don't want to have other types of content or anything that may not be licensed. But yeah you load it, you sign in, you put in your code that you get from us, and you're good to go.

And there's a bunch of channels, right?

Jon Niermann: Yeah, we've got about a hundred music channels, so think of them as playlists. One of our popular ones, for example, is Beach Country. Who knew, right?

Yeah, I don't know what that is, but okay. 

Jon Niermann: So you get all these. We have Darcy Fulmer; she is fantastic, just in terms of customizing and putting all the playlists together for us and curating and really on the pulse, long-term time music industry executive, a great relationship with all the labels. So she really knows how to customize these things, and we weekly look at what are popular channels, we could adjust, we put in seasonal channels, we put in celebratory type channels. Obviously, with a bunch of Halloween ones now coming up, Christmas is always a popular time. So the venue has over a hundred of those to choose from, and then you've got about 50 non-music channels. 

So if you want everything from Looney Tunes, believe it or not, it is a popular one for people to choose from because again, you are just looking at the visual type of stuff. But for failed videos, viral videos, we got the TikTok channel. So it's a great brand, World Surf League. So if you're at a surfing store, hunting, fishing, anything that, again, is contextual and customizes that environment, if you're in autos and cars and you want that type of playing all day, you can do that too. 

So, I'm guessing you have a pretty big content edit team and also have to have folks who specialize in licensing rights and approvals, that sort of thing, right?

Jon Niermann: It's funny. Our team is so small. The company itself has about 70 people. I think on the content side, we're between the studio, the creative team, and the curators; it's less than 10, believe it or not. So we're very lucky. I already mentioned Darcy, but we have Justis, who runs our content, and Luke and all the guys who have been with us for a long time who understand.

What the customers need. We talk to the venues, we get ideas of what they want, and what's going to be popular, and then we strike deals with these companies. We do the editing, and the customizing and get it all ready to go. 

So are you able to say to the surf channel or somebody like that, that here's the format, here's the run times that we would like and so on, and they will send that to you or do you pretty much have to take their stuff and then touch it?

Jon Niermann: It's both, so you're right. There are some that could just do an RSS feed and just say, here you go, and we give them the specs, and that works. Others will just dump a bunch of stuff in a folder, and then our editing team goes at it.

Are there obvious trends and things that you know that people will like and other ones that you've tried and thought, let's just see, and then you find out it resonates or it doesn't? 

Jon Niermann: Yeah, it's funny you say trending-type things like what's popular now; people like to get those headlines. So, if you could picture a screen, it's full of visuals, it's full of subtitles and context because you have to be able to understand what you're looking at without lip reading. 

And that's part of the reason we know that talking heads are sitting down, even like you're used to with say, ESPN or some of those shows, it doesn't necessarily work that well if you just got a bunch of people up there talking. So we've gotten that feedback. We understand that it's a very strong visual. It has to be short, like a two or three-minute type thing, and you have to have enough hours per day where it's not repetitive, and that's super important as well. 

So, would a three-hour window or whatever run every day for a week or a month or something like that? 

Jon Niermann: Yeah. Typically, for us, we'll do at least six hours. Some of these playlists are 20, believe it or not, and then not only that but if it repeats, it'll shuffle. So, the chances of actually seeing it really don't exist. So you can understand if you've got all those files in there and you're shuffling, you won't see the same order again. So it's not only the customers, it's clearly the employees that you don't want to get fatigued. 

Do you call this a digital out-of-home, or is it like consumer TV or some sort of segment having to do with fast streaming, or what's the nomenclature for this?

Jon Niermann: It's a fantastic question, and I laugh because it's what we're talking about all the time these days because it's trying to define it to the advertising community, especially. For us, it's simple. It's just TV. Just think about where you're watching your TV. If you're on your couch or if you're in a bar, you're watching the same TV, it's different content. This is premium television. This is not just all YouTube user-generated stuff. We've got branded partners. 

So for us, we're very much connected to TV, CTV for out of home. So when we talk to the ad partners, they are like, look, you can take your CTV budget, and you can put this towards a Loop because it is premium TV. If you think lots of times when they're thinking out of home or digital out of home, they're thinking of billboards, they're thinking of that type of display, as you know very well. So we're developing and introducing that space of, it's just TV. It really is. It's CTV. So think of Loop that way.

Yeah. It's interesting. I've been involved in this space for, God, almost 25 years now, and I can remember when I started a digital out-of-home media network in the early 2000s, going to media planners, and they're looking at me with their heads tilted and going, What the hell are you going on about?

At that time, the people who were advising me or I was working with were saying somehow or other we have to tap into the TV bucket and call ourselves in some way TV because there's way more money in that bucket than there certainly was at that time in the out-of-home bucket. But that's changed a lot, but I would imagine that connected TV is still probably a bigger number to tap into than out-of-home.

Jon Niermann: For sure. It's significantly higher still. I think both are growing to your point. Digital out of home, the budgets are certainly increasing. It's one of the fastest-growing components of the advertising mix, which is great, but CTV is also that way.

People have shifted away from the traditional linear TV, Cable, et cetera. They moved into streaming. So, it's not unlike any evolution. It's something we often try to talk about as well. If you think back to 2007, when Netflix started and then Hulu came on and all these channels, you're like, who the hell are they? I'm used to buying NBC and Fox, and I just wrapped my head around the weather channel and ESPN, and now you're trying to introduce this streaming stuff. Today, of course, most people are buying streaming, and so for us, we're in that same evolution for the businesses with out-of-home, kind of where they were in 2007, and consumers like, look, this is another form of television. So you've got to treat it that way with your funnel of advertising span. Otherwise, you're really missing out on a fantastic mix and opportunity to reach these consumers in a captive way. So it's always a constant education going on when you're introducing something.

You’re competing against all kinds of media, but more specifically, Samsung TV and LG TV show up in your smart TV, whether you want it or not.

Jon Niermann: Yeah. Again, it's about licensing. Many of these companies aren't licensed out of home, believe it or not. It's a whole different set of licenses, especially on the music side. You have to have performance rights. You have to, and venues could get big fines. You cannot plug your phone in and play Spotify, for example. You can't turn YouTube on and play those videos.

But they do, and they will continue to do that. Just like people are seeing the 65-mile-an-hour speeding thing, they're going to get away with 75, push it up to 95, and you're pressing your luck. So, if you've got a lot of venues out there, they will do random checks. So for us, it really truly is about, we can't control that side of it, but what we can control is providing a reason for them to use us, and that's typically through the content and just through easy use and affordability.

So you can say to your end-user customer base, “Use us, it's going to be reliable. It's stable, and guess what? You won't get a cease and desist letter from YouTube or Spotify or anybody like that.”

Jon Niermann: That's right. Yeah, or the associations like ASCAP, BMI, all those guys out there that are just tracking and waiting to find people for public display. 

One thing that interested me was how you are doing, I think this happened within the last year or so. You've activated self-serve ads. I'm curious how that works and why you went down that path. I suspect it has a lot to do with somehow tapping into local ads that are really hard to sell unless you've got an army of salespeople.

Jon Niermann: That's exactly right. You nailed it on the head. As for your time in this industry, local ads are a big part of it, you've got your national and regional ads, but local ad budgets are large and growing from what we can see. So the ad server that we created, Bob Gruters, who's our chief revenue officer, came from Facebook and Instagram, and he has a lot of experience with the ad server that they used over there.

And it's very easy. It's a self-serve type of thing. So we're being innovative and providing this for an ability for you to put your ad on TV that way, where you could go in as any type of business and if you want to have your ad on Loop and across our network, whether it's locally in your town, your County, your state, you'll be able to do that. So it's a very simple way just to go and upload an image or a video and have that play. 

Do you give them any help in terms of video production or through templates and things like that?

Jon Niermann: Yeah, we do. There are easy templates for people to follow, and again, we try to make it as simple as possible. The closer you can get to plug and play for everybody. 

First of all, they don't have time, they don't have patience. If it's too complicated there, they've got 50 other things they'd rather deal with or have to deal with. So you've just gotta make it super simple for them. So, for us to be able to say, if you just want to throw your logo in, we'll do the rest. It's that automatic.

You've done this like a third-party partner, right? I think it's Orca TV. 

Jon Niermann: Yeah. Orca TV, they're here in Santa Monica with us in the LA area, and they are fantastic partners. They've been a partner with us for a couple of years now, and just some really talented people like Mike Woods over there and their ability to develop, they've just done a great job.

I assume this is something you theoretically could have done on your own, but then you have to support it and keep it up and secure and everything else. It's just easier to go with somebody who focuses on that. 

Jon Niermann: Yeah, it is. And Liam McCallum, who runs our tech, has been with us from the beginning. In fact, Liam came with me from Electronic Arts. He used to run EA's kind of online gaming out in Asia. So very capable, smart tech guy, but with a small tech team; coming to my point earlier, sometimes we just have to work with others to get it done, and Mike and the Orca team, we had a great relationship with, and they have the capability and the ability to do it now.

In terms of sales, are you going direct? 

I realize for hyper local, you're using this self-serve platform when you can, but do you have a direct sales force, or are you relying on programmatic partners? 

Jon Niermann: We do have a direct sales force. That really only ramped up, I'd say, over the last quarter, so about the last three months.

Prior to that, we had to really build our scale. We had to build our distribution. Once we got to about 20,000 venues last fall, we could start to sow the seeds directly. And as you know, that just takes time. So, over six to nine months, we went out there, spread the word, and then the deals started coming across as we continued to grow; we're over 70,000 now. We've had that ability to move from just pure programmatic. 

I mean, we were in programmatic, like an open auction, and that was it, and then the bottom kind of fell out of that market, as we all know, the end of last year and the beginning of the year. So having the diversity now of direct sales and local ads is going to be much better for us going forward.

Yeah. I was curious about programmatic. I was in New York last week for a couple of days and dipped my head into the DPAA conference and chatted with some people and I got a sense of frustration and disillusionment from them about the promise versus the real return that they're seeing out of programmatic, which is always challenging to me because I don't understand what the hell they're going on about, but I gather that it's not really generating the revenues that operators like you need.

Jon Niermann: I think it's a couple of things. I think there was definitely a dip, and people for no fault of the programmatic partners, the advertisers weren't spending as much, but that's come back, and I think the other thing is probably what you were tapping into or hearing because we were also at that conference and we just discussed TV. How do you define where those monies go with programmatic, how did the agencies allocate them, are these programmatic partners doing a good job and really advocating for television, CTV, and digital out-of-home?

That's potentially where some of the tension could come from, but we've been very fortunate to have some great programmatic partners step up and then we've also felt like there's some that could do a lot more, and certainly in defining this, the way that we're talking about would benefit them as well as the clients and it would obviously benefit people like us down the stream.

Is the right mix having you primarily sell directly and then supplement that with programmatic versus relying on programmatic? 

Jon Niermann: I think it just takes a minute to get there. I think it's always going to be probably a best-case, like a 50-50 type thing. I think programmatic is always going to be a big part of it.

Direct needs to be built, but programmatic works. It's efficient. There are some great ads, and there are some great dollars that kind of come through that. You have all different types, right? You've got everything you need, but as part of the mix for us, I think direct and local will certainly increase.

You're not alone in doing this. There are a handful of other companies currently chasing this kind of business, and it's a medium, so to speak. It's been around since the early 2000s, the whole build it and they will come at that time, it was very expensive to do now as you know more than just about anybody, it's not as expensive to do it.

Where are you at with it? 

Jon Niermann: It's funny, because where are we ever on the evolutionary scale? It's like you started a business ten years ago. How many times have you heard people say you were just too early? You were just ahead of your time. I think for us, to your point, people have tried. I don't know if the timing has been right. I don't know if the content or the technology has been right, but it feels like it's right now and certainly coming on the success of streaming, and how that blew up, it became huge and “ the streaming wars,” and everybody's talking about it. They completely ignored out-of-home, and I get it; the consumer pie is bigger, but this pie is not small. 

So I think the big companies aren't focused on it because if you're those big companies, you've already built your libraries with the content of TVs, and movies, you spent billions of dollars. You'd have to do a whole different thing to build this. With this type of content and targeting, and even if you're a big player consumer, it doesn't mean you can all of a sudden have 50,000 locations overnight. It's a long selling process for a lot of these venues. So, I think we're at a very good place. I think that we're about 2% penetrated in this market between us and the other players, and there are a few private players that are doing this streaming TV either by ad-supported or subscription and if you add us all up, I truly believe that we're about maybe 1%-2% penetrated. So, a great green field ahead of us. 

I'm sure you don't want to go on at length about your competitors, but how do you distinguish yourself from them?

Jon Niermann: I think if you look at other competitors out there, some will charge an activation fee, some will take a credit card. Those are barriers to entry that we don't think are necessary and not great for customer relations. The minute you throw that credit card down, you feel better as a company, I think, because you think you've got a path to revenue or more secure revenue, but you start having things, where you just disagree with a customer and credit card comes into play. It's not a good thing. 

So, I think for us, it's just more of a pure relationship of let's make this work. So, I think people are trying different models. There's nothing wrong with that. Even if it's ad-supported, a subscription, it goes back to the old cable days as well, remember there used to be big activation fees or they waived activation. So, it's just part of the business. So I think for us, we deal in premium content. We, by far, I believe, have the top premium content. We're really the only one that had those music videos with Sony, Warner Universal, and even Disney. We've got all the licenses from the majors. That really sets us apart. 

Your background is with Disney, as you just mentioned, and with Electronic Arts. How did you find your way into this back in, I think it was 2016. 

Jon Niermann: Yeah, it's funny. I was with Disney for 15 years. I went out to Asia with them at the end. I was actually president of Disney Asia for several years and then went over to Electronic Arts when they were really growing their online and mobile games. In fact, we launched the first online and mobile game for EA out in Asia. That was just a really big and opportunistic time for me to learn about that industry, so I really enjoyed that, but also, you got that entrepreneurial bug. 

You see all these companies being built around you, and you're thinking, I really want to do that. I took about 22 years in corporate and decided that I wanted to be linked somehow to entertainment, media, and technology, and we had a couple of different iterations before it ultimately ended up here as Loop. 

What did family and friends think about going from pretty substantial companies to a media startup?

Jon Niermann: Oh, the typical mix that I lost my mind. Let's just start with that and stop with that, probably. But it was like, why would you leave these jobs? These stable jobs have great titles and access, and it’s true. You've got that card, with Disney, EA’s President on it, you can open up a lot of doors, and then all of a sudden you become a co-founder, CEO of Loop Media, it's like who, what? 

Everything just has to start over, in a sense. But I found that exhilarating, and it's been up and down and sideways and easy and challenging and rewarding and regretting and every emotion that you go through. But to get to where we are today is extremely satisfying. And again, going through bumpy times this past year. The previous year was great. We launched our company. Our revenue went from 5 million to 30 million. We went to the New York Stock Exchange. In this past year, we got hit, but we're fine, and we're coming out of it and looking forward to this coming year.

That's a good way to wrap this up. I am curious what we'll see out of the Loop in the next 12 months. 

Jon Niermann: I think you will see us be aggressive with distribution. I think a couple of things that we lack awareness of, we're undiscovered. So a lot of people just don't know about us. So you're going to see more marketing. You're going to see more brand building, more partnerships, and more engagement with clients, consumers, and venues. For example, we're launching a new Trivia product that's hosted Trivia. You have the opportunity that'll become interactive soon.

We're looking at various other things that'll become interactive within the venues. So I think it's a very exciting year to just increase that engagement and take advantage of connecting with those consumers. 

Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned some of them like doing other things in the venue. That's one of your competitors, maybe not a direct competitor, but it does similar work. They've focused as opposed to just pure entertainment. They've focused on kind of venue operations and helping to sell more stuff and communicate to staff, and everything is you're angling towards that as well.

Jon Niermann: Yeah, we do. I mean, you could take your Loop player. We have it right now and use this back at home for staff communications because a lot of staff members are not going to read email, so if you just have this screen with the messaging going back of the house, you can certainly use a Loop system for that. So engagement is definitely a big part of what we're looking at in the future.

All right, John. This was terrific, I appreciate spending some time with you 

Jon Niermann: Thanks, Dave. I appreciated it.

Gil Matzliah, Novisign

I bumped into Gil Matzliah at a conference this summer, and told the software executive we were long overdue to do a podcast about what's happening with his company, Novisign.

We finally nailed down a date and time, and as it turned out, it was just days after the horrendous violence that broke out in Israel - where Matzliah and his company are based.

We chatted about the situation and the impacts on his company. He's fine, his family and staff are fine, but everyone is understandably rattled.

We then got into the roots of Novisign does, what's different about its CMS solution, and what they're seeing and hearing in the marketplace. Novisign was an early adopter of Android and it remains its primary go-to operating system.

Though Israeli, more than half of its business comes from the US and another quarter from Europe. And now the company is growing business in Japan.

Transcript

Gil, thank you for joining me. You’re in Israel, where a few days later things went crazy there. I have to ask, how are things going? How are you? And I assume the family's fine and everything? 

Gil Matzliah: Yeah. Thank you for your concern. Yes, me and my family are all good, also the team members that are here in Israel are good. Last Saturday was a very hard day in Israel. It's something we never expected would happen. But now we are good.

Your offices are pretty close to the West Bank, aren't they? 

Gil Matzliah: Yeah. So, Israel is a small and tiny country. It's not too big. So everything is close to everything. Our office is close to the West Bank, the conflict and all the issues you hear now in the news have been in the south area of Israel with the border of the Gaza Strip.

I hope everything continues to be fine for you and things settle down there.

Gil Matzliah: Yeah, we also hope so. At the end of the day, we like to work, we like to have peace, everybody wants to build good things together and so do our neighbors. In NoviSign, we have Arab Muslims, Christians from all around the world, Jewish people, we all work happily together and that's what we hope the world will go for. It's just this thing with the Gaza Strip that... and there's an organization called Hamas, who is making the issues and challenges for our regions, which I hope will be better moving forward. 

Has staffing been affected at all? Have you had members of your staff be called up to the military?

Gil Matzliah: Yeah, in many countries, they call some of the stuff but you can say it's less than 10% for a team all the time one or two people in total.

Yeah, it's just one of those things which you can't help but be directly affected in some way because of the size of the country and the way things operate, right?

Gil Matzliah: Exactly. Yes. 

All right. So enough of that. I don't want to dwell on it and no doubt by the time that things will have changed and hopefully gotten better. 

Just for the benefits of people who maybe don't know your company, can you run down what you do, how long you've been around and how you distinguish yourself in the marketplace as NoviSign.

Gil Matzliah: Perfect. So, we are NoviSign. We do digital signage software. Our company is based in Israel and provides services from all around the world. We have people in the US, Germany and Japan. With a team of more than 200 partners all around the world, we give a global software as a service for digital signage.

I started a company with my colleague, Avi 12 years ago. It was 2011. We established it here in Israel, with the dream to be a great startup, changing the world and leading the digital signage software. 

Have you changed the world? 

Gil Matzliah: It's not so easy but we're sure we'll do it. We are making changes. We are progressing. Opening a startup 12 years ago, that's a long journey and like a roller coaster, you go up, you go down, but you keep going forward all the time. And after a few years, we started to see the good results coming and since then we are growing and growing constantly every year. 

Good. So if you were lined up against, let's say, 10 other CMS software companies out there and somebody said, all right, I've looked at all these other ones. What is it about you guys that's distinctive and different and important? What would you say?

Gil Matzliah: Yeah. So, first it's the team. We came with a lot of experience in software programming. We are technical people. We are software programming people. We have opened the company to lead in the platforms that enable people to do that. So, it's the team that you work with. It's the technology behind the servers, the player, the communication, the integration and it's the offering that we have.

We have a wide offering, which is very reliable and secured and trusted by thousands of customers around the world. 

You mentioned security and I know you're SOC 2 certified. Was that important to do? 

I'm hearing more and more from a variety of different companies saying that the security piece of this is really important, maybe much more so than it was even a couple of years ago. 

Gil Matzliah: That's correct. So more and more organizations are looking at security, but also it's the maturity of the company.

So when NoviSign started with few installations, what you are busy with is just building software that works. And then after it works, you start adding more and more features. And when we started, we were looking at a small and medium businesses. But slowly, as people saw, we have a nice, easy to use platform, then the bigger companies started wanting it. But when you go for a bigger company, and as time changes, all these medium and large companies today want better security, they looki at all these RFPs, abd you really need good security in order to get these customers.

Have you evolved like a lot of companies have, where they started with the small to medium business market and now they're more focused on enterprise?

Gil Matzliah: We are not focusing on enterprise yet, but this is the growth engine that we have. So if you had asked me like five years ago, we wouldn't work with banks, insurance companies or bigger Fortune 500 companies. But if you look recently in the last five years, we started to work with a few banks and corporations and insurance companies worldwide and there is the bigger number of bigger business we work with now.

I'm curious when you say five years ago, you wouldn't have worked with a big bank or somebody like that. Is that because your platform wasn't ready for it or a very large customer, as I've said to some other people in the past, they could be great, but they can kill your company because they just get so involved and they can be so needy?

Gil Matzliah: It's a good point. So if I look at that, I can tell you an interesting story. Like a year or two after we opened the company and we have the website and we started to do promotions and we started to go to shows and I'm sitting in my home and suddenly I'm getting, today we have people in the US, but back then we were just in Israel, and a call was redirected for me from the US and it was the MTA of the New York transportation company asking about our platforms. 

And you're not really ready for these types of companies when you are less than 10 people, a small company with a new product. But once you are in almost 10 years or so, and you have enough people to support, enough understanding of the security, the features, the integrations, the platforms, then you get ready to serve the bigger companies. 

You work with a lot of different platforms and therefore hardware partners. I know you're on Android, you're on different SOC platforms for smart displays, all that sort of thing.

Is it a challenge to manage the variety of, they're all are just similar in certain respects, most of them are Linux in some way or another, but how easy or hard is it to stay on top of all those different ones? 

Gil Matzliah: It is a good point. It is a good challenge because looking at that, when you're a small company and at the beginning we started with Android.

I think we've been one of the first, if not the first, to develop an Android based player, an APK back in 2011. There are more and more people on Android, it's not the most of them. And then we started to add ithers, we added Windows, we added Chrome, we added Linux, now we are adding HTML Player, we are adding Tizen, we are adding WebOS, and we're adding more and more features. It's becoming very complex to support them all because once you have a change, you need to see it's working on all the platforms. 

And when you speak about the Android platforms, just the Android platform has so many versions. And we even have, lately, forced all our customers with Android that is less than 6.0 to stop using the system because until half a year ago, there were people that were still using Android 4.4 with us and the difference between Android 4 and Android 12 is huge. So imagine that fixed security support, as you say it's becoming to be more and more challenging and you need to grow the team and it's slower for you to add new features because you need to see that it's working on all the platforms, but we do believe we should be always hardware agnostic because what is differentiating a CMS software from a Samsung LG and all the other display manufacturers that are doing the software is that we work with all the platforms and they work just with their platforms. So we keep it as a focus for us. 

Is technology enabling you to go towards being operating system agnostic without having to make compromises in terms of, yes, we can work across all of these different platforms, but we can't do everything on each of them or whatever, which I've heard versus, natively written software that's native to Tizen, native to WebOS and so on.

Gil Matzliah: Yeah, it's hard to do 100 percent of your features on all the platforms. Not all the platforms, not all the OS work equally. So our main player from the first day until today is the Android, which we can do 100 percent of our capabilities. When you go to Tizen or WebOS, you are limited in some way, and then you need to give away some features sometimes when you're developing your platform.

Are you finding that the marketplace end users and your reseller partners are starting to settle in on certain solutions, like they're settling in on Android or whatever it may be? 

Gil Matzliah: I think you probably know better than me the hardware, the platforms, the ways to do digital science is like a big jungle. There are so many things and choices, even the software, you always say that there are many more CMS platforms. 

So there are so many varieties there. So I don't see anybody locking on anything and that's why we keep the diversity to be able to support the most.

For the technical people at AV companies that are just starting to get into digital signage or the AV IT people for end user customers. Do they look at this space and go, come on guys, can you just establish some standards and continuity and not have all these varieties of options? 

Gil Matzliah: They're asking for that. We are asking for that. I think the world needs that. The one thing, we do see that Android, since we started 12 years ago, and imagine 12 years ago, you didn't even have a set up box of an Android, or just the first one was just coming in 2012, like the year after we started, or the first year of NoviSign.

And today, most of the world, most of the set up boxes around the world are Android based. So we do see that Android... both the system on chip and both of the players have been the main platforms for digital signage. For us for sure, more than half of our installation and most of our installations are Android based either with a player or with a system of chip. I find it very strange that Samsung and LG are still struggling to stand out technology and not going with the mainstream. 

That seems to be changing. Samsung is moving away from its software partners, at least it certainly seems that way and marketing its own platform and LG WebOS now has a standalone player, a WebOS player, as opposed to you having to buy their display so that they've got some flexibility there.

So I think the big guys are seeing the need to either adjust or just decide, you know what, yes, we have partners, but we are going to do our own thing as well. 

Gil Matzliah: We believe in Android, but we still believe that we would need to be hardware and OS agnostic.

Partner and end user demands, have they changed through the years? Like what they wanted when you got into it or maybe even five years ago, is that different from now? 

Gil Matzliah: That's an interesting question. I don't notice a big change in the partners. But one thing is for sure, customers, partners, they want everything all the time, so we need to be there to deliver it for them.

The impression I get generally is both for the AV/IT ecosystem and particularly on the end user side, they understand the technology a lot more, they understand the benefits and so on. So you're no longer having to put stuff up on a website or elsewhere saying what is digital signage and here's the reasons you want to use it and so on. 

They get it, they understand it, perhaps they've used it, and now they're looking for their second generation of software because the first selection did the job, but didn't really do what they wanted or limited their capabilities. Are you seeing that? 

Gil Matzliah: Yes. I think the world is more familiar with digital signage. When we started 12 years ago, not many people would knew what it was, what you do with it, how you install it. 

And today, every new project of signage is an integral, internal mass part in all these new setup locations, public places, and when more and more people are dealing with that, then they have more knowledge about it and then they start to learn more, to ask for more and this is something we do see.

Are there particular vertical markets that you're seeing a lot of growth in and that you guys are focused on? 

Gil Matzliah: I can tell you about the geographical region. So most of our business, more than half of our business is coming from the United States, which is the easiest market to work with. The faster trying thing, understanding thing. Then we have the European market with a quarter of our business coming from there and they’re more conservatives, what they're getting, how they're getting, planning, trying and so on. And then, we have the rest of the world and we are focusing and growing in the last five years in Japan. We have a local team over there in Japan and in Japan they are testing more, asking more. If you deliver and if you have a lot of patience, then it grows. So these are the regions that we work with. 

As for the different sectors, we really don't have anything which is like more than 20 percent of our business. We do have hospitality, we do have health care, we have the cooperation, we do have retail. 

But we started a new initiative, which we spoke about in the past a little bit. We established with some partners a company named which is focusing on the retail industry. So everything which is fanning out from retail. Today, we are moving to this new initiative that we built and generally the sectors. 

Are you mainly selling through a “channel” or do you sell direct? 

Gil Matzliah: We are acting both direct and on the channels and both of them are significant for us. So, there isn't one which is more or less significant than the other.

A lot of our partners are white labels. There are so many installations around the world, which are based on the NoviSign signage that you won't even know. 

Which I assume is very important to these partners. 

Gil Matzliah: Yes, because for years, these partners have had their their software, their brand and our support behind it and we give them like instances and so on.

We give them confidentiality, of course, if an end user will turn anything upside down and look and research, after some time they’ll find us, but it's working fine for our partners and for us.

Are your partners layering on managed services so they're white labeling and then saying, we can run this network for you or at least keep an eye on it?

Gil Matzliah: Yeah. So when we're working with a local partner, and we have more than 200 of them all around the world. The nice thing is that, if a customer is calling us and say, I want to install this hotel, this hospital, this restaurant, this city hall, we'll tell him the first thing, we are a software company. We are SaaS, it's a do it yourself, we can support you over the phone.But if you want installation, if you want hardware, if you want initial setup, if you don't have the right people in your organization, then we can refer you to one of our partners. 

Our partners, they are integrators. They know how to build the right hardware, how to configure our software, and how to set it up for the customers, and they do it because they know it much better than us.

So, if a customer just wants to get the SaaS subscriptions and they're going to do it themselves, then your partners aren't going to really see anything out of that anyways. They're looking for the services and the hardware integration, all that stuff, so they're not too fussed if you go directly on that but if there's an opportunity to layer in things, then you throw it to your partners. 

Gil Matzliah: Yes, because we are not going to do meetings with our customers. We are not flying to customers. We are not driving to customers. We do everything software, everything from remote. As long as you need a meeting then it's not going to be sent anywhere.

Are there, “whale accounts”, big reference accounts or they could even be small ones that you, when you get asked about who you're working with that you're able to talk about? 

Gil Matzliah: One of our biggest accounts is Worten in Portugal, which is like Best Buy, that has more than 10,000 endpoints with us and we do have some other big corporations and hotels with us as well. In Israel, I can tell you some names like Ikea, Coca Cola, most of the hotels that are working with us here and many other big brands.

In that Portuguese big box electronic store, what are they doing in there? Is it strictly just big displays or are they doing interactive?

Gil Matzliah: It's more like a display of things, but they have a lot of initiative, they're very innovative and for more than five years, we work with them and they are always one step ahead of the market, whether it's very nice gates and video walls and presentation layers and everything related to products. In a way, when you go to the Worten store, it will dress the entire store with a special occasion, holiday, festival and the promotion that they do.

I'm curious about how your company is using AI. You come from a part of the world that has, pretty serious number of technical people, and some of the AI companies have come out of Israel. Are you applying it or are you looking at it as something you can use? 

Gil Matzliah: We know and believe that AI will be a part of digital signage. We know it's important. We know it's just the beginning of it now, so the value you can create with it, it's not big yet, but we know it's coming. So, at this phase, we didn't release anything or expose anything, but our technology team is looking at that and trying to do a few things. We might present something in ISE, which is coming at the beginning of next year.

And would you use it for… I moderated a panel the other night in New York about all this and I said the presentation layer of using AI for generated visuals and so on, is interesting, but to me, the truly interesting stuff is back of house automating routine tasks and creating marketing materials without a whole bunch of work involved, and one of the guys ran a media company was talking about data input and harmonizing data and all that sort of thing. So somebody looking at this from afar, they might think that's pretty boring, but it can be pretty valuable. 

Gil Matzliah: We are less looking on the operation side, as AI will help us see the operation side of the signage. We're more looking at the content creation for the signage itself, for the inputs. 

What about on the technology side? There's endless buzz about LED displays and new emerging display technologies on the display and the playback hardware side. Are there things emerging that you think are going to be important?

Gil Matzliah: We don't go into the display technology, the LED technology for us. It's more agnostic. So as long as it can get a resolution of a screen..

It's an output. 

Gil Matzliah: The one that you get as an input or an output is the way you look at it.

What about on media players and just computing power? 

Gil Matzliah: Yeah, the media player is the important stuff And the main question we all the time ask ourselves is, Is the world moving to a system on chip? Would it stay on the media players? Would it be a combination of them? Would the resolutions and the quality grow performance? And this is something we invest a lot of effort, thinking and development, especially working with all these different platforms which is a lot of maintenance to do.

Yeah, I think one of the interesting things and I'm racking my brain trying to remember who, but the idea of system on chip, but with an upgrade pass, so you could pop open a smart display and put in a new SOC three years out that has more graphics processing or some other capability that maybe that didn't have when you first bought it.

Gil Matzliah: That's an interesting direction. 

Alright. So if people want to know more about your company, where would they find you online? 

Gil Matzliah: You can look for NoviSign.com. All the information is there, the phone numbers, they can contact us, and we are looking for new partners all the time, that will work with us, innovate with us and take our software to maximum customers and locations.

And also, if you're an end customer and you want to learn more, you want us to support you with innovative technology and especially software, we'd be happy to have you visit at NoviSign.com. 

Alright, Gil. Thank you. I hope things calm down there and when I see you at ISE in a few weeks or a couple months. 

Gil Matzliah: Actually, we're planning to be in MEDICA in Germany next month and then in Las Vegas and then ISE in Barcelona. So wherever you're coming, I will always be happy to see you. 

Las Vegas and Barcelona, I'll be there. 

Gil Matzliah: Oh yeah. You have a mixer at both places. Me and my colleagues are looking forward to them.

All right. Stay safe and I’ll see you soon. 

Gil Matzliah: Thank you very much. 

 

DSF Cocktails and Controversy, NYC 2023 - AI In Digital Signage

The opening seconds sound a little scratchy and distorted, probably because I was talking more loudly than I needed to, but the majority of the audio from Monday night's Cocktails and Controversy event sounds pretty good. I have uploaded the file to my podcast platform, so that folks who couldn't make it to the Digital Signage Federation event at Sony's NYC offices can have a listen.

Consider this a bonus podcast, and I have not added an intro or exit ... so it's a bit raw, but just fine for listening.

The topic was AI in digital signage, and you will hear from me, but much more usefully from Chris Grosso, CEO of Intersection, Jeffrey Weitzman of Navori and Jim Nista, who has a boutique creative agency out in LA.

We covered a lot of ground and tried to zero in, very much, on what AI means to digital signage and how it is already being applied.

Thanks to the folks at Sony for getting me the file!

 

George Clopp, Korbyt

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

What if you could use AI to make digital signage screen content relentlessly relevant?

That's the premise and promise of what Korbyt calls Machine Learning Broadcast, new capabilities in the Dallas-based software firm's CMS platform.

Using computer vision and machine learning, the idea is that if the platform can get a sense of what's making people stop and watch in a defined environment, then content can be optimized based on that interest.

The system finds and schedules content to push to screens based on engagement metrics.

How it all technically works is a bit over my shiny head, but I had a good chat with Korbyt CTO George Clopp about what's going on and its implications. We also get into what the future looks like for AI in digital signage.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Geroge, thank you for joining me. We've chatted in the past. For those who don't know Korbyt, can you give me a rundown of what the company's all about? 

George Clopp: Hi, Dave. It's a pleasure to speak with you again. Yeah, Korbyt is at its root an employee engagement company. So we've got roots in digital signage, but our typical use case is using digital signage at corporate campuses and to communicate to employees, to increase employee engagement as well as to communicate real-time mission-critical stats as well. 

Is that pretty much the core vertical that you guys chase, workplace? 

George Clopp: It is. We are heavily into the workplace, meeting rooms as well. We do a lot with retail banks, a little bit into the retail space, but it's primarily corporate campuses.

For those who don't know the company, it actually goes back a long way to Symon Communications days, right? You guys were doing workplace communications long before the digital signage industry discovered that. 

George Clopp: Yeah, exactly right, Dave. It precedes me. I've been here for seven years now. I can't even believe it, but that's how much I enjoy this space and the industry. I enjoy the company so much, but we had Target Vision, Symon Communications, and we've just evolved. I joined at the tail end of 2016 to develop the Korbyt platform, and obviously, we have to meet the needs of the digital signage industry, but we've had a really heavy focus on employee engagement as well.

Is it interesting to see all these other companies who have more general offers, find their way into the workplace because they see that as an opportune vertical? 

George Clopp: Yeah, I view it as exciting. I think it's definitely a macroeconomic trend with the pandemic, post-pandemic, the modern workplace, everything is reimagining and reinventing and re-everything these days.

I think it's good. It's a legitimate macro problem that everyone's looking to provide solutions to. So, I'm really excited. I love the industry myself. 

In some respects, you guys have been doing back-of-house, a lot longer than most companies would have. I mean, you're not just working in the offices, you're working in production areas and so on. 

George Clopp: That's correct. Heavy in manufacturing and heavy in the contact centers, anytime where you're doing mission-critical real-time data, you're connecting to an ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning), or yard management system, and you want to change or orchestrate the display and the surroundings based on data changing, we've got a deep background in that. 

Yeah, for contact centers, if I recall, years ago pre-arrival with the company, you were doing low-resolution LED readouts that were just telling people in the contact center about the average wait time on calls and things like that. 

George Clopp: Exactly, and that's matured over the years and now we're doing that on the desktop and on the mobile device as well. We still have some supply chains and some yard management systems in a warehouse, where we'll do the little blinky boards over the dock doors themselves.

We range from the dock doors all the way to your mobile device now. 

The PR that came out about a new piece of functionality, your marketing talks about a million endpoints, 250 cloud migrations, and 100+ native integrations. 

A million endpoints, that's like a lot.

George Clopp: It is. Yeah, scalability and being able to expand out to touch desktops, normal, typical digital science screens, and mobile endpoints. It's been a real focus on us for the last four or five years. So we're really proud to announce that, and then the back end, like you were talking about those native data integrations, I think that's really what sets us aside from a lot of our competition is making those really hardcore authentications and then that real-time pipe between us and the source systems. 

I know a lot of other software in our space that we run into, they talk about integrations. A lot of times it's really just a file, they're taking data from a source system. They're putting it into a CSV format or any kind of other format and then they're pulling that in. So that's really where we shine with that real-time data integration. 

Is that important in terms of a distinction when solutions providers and users are looking at data integration and they see that a CMS says, yeah we do data integration, we can integrate with your platform? It sounds like you're saying there are different tiers of that, and there's real integration and there's just like a baseline. 

George Clopp: Yeah, exactly. That's the right way to pick up on that day, for sure. When you need to orchestrate and change things in a 911 center or in a manufacturing-type environment and definitely in a contact center, speed is really the key there. So having something on a five-minute loop that's pulling a file, it's just not fast enough. So you need that real-time data, you need that high availability so that something was to break that you've got a backup in place and you can make sure that contact center, that supply chain, that 911 center is rolling smoothly.

They're not just getting their data, but they're changing the experience of the data. That's another thing that we do, we pull in stats, but we also augment those stats and do value-added calculations on the stats, and then we trigger on those values to change the screen, or change the mobile device or change the desktop. So if you've got too many calls in the queue or you're running behind on this loading dock here, we'll change the entire experience for you based on that value-added stat that we do. 

I also assume that when companies talk about integrations, for very logical reasons, they're going to go to the most used platforms out there, whether it's Teams or God knows what. But if you have a hundred plus native integrations you're probably talking about some pretty exotic things that nobody's ever heard of, and if a company went in and said, we can integrate with their systems and they say, what those systems are, their eyebrows are going up, because they're thinking, I have never heard of that.

George Clopp: Absolutely, Dave. There are some low-level protocols where we just integrate at a TCP level with a very proprietary protocol, but I would say the bulk of it is more modern, JSON-based RESTful interfaces, for sure and we like to distinguish between data integrations, business application integrations, and SSO integrations, in three categories there.

So, like a Power BI or a Tableau or something like that would be more of a business application integration, and when we're talking data integration, we're talking more low level, running SQL against a data store, running web services, running SOAP-based web services, and to that extent. And again, that's why we call it out in our marketing because we do think that's a core differentiator for us. 

So just to go back to something, when you talk about a million endpoints, you're including desktops.. 

George Clopp: That's correct. Desktops and mobile devices, basically all of the endpoints that we talk to.

Good. Back at the start of summer, you guys introduced something called, Machine Learning Broadcast. What is that?

George Clopp: Yeah, fantastic question. We were involved with machine learning, and AI before it was really cool, so this was actually something we developed in 2018. We've been honing the model, and then we re-released it this year. But machine learning is a subset of AI, and we all know AI is a super big buzzword these days and when you peel that onion, there's levels of accuracy involved there, and there's a lot of hype around the world.

But the reason why we called the feature machine learning broadcast is really to focus on the ML aspects of it, and it's a great business problem to solve because, at the end of the day, what we're really creating is a recommendation engine. And I think everybody's familiar with the Amazon recommendation engine, Instagram, and other social media platforms that are just, they're recommending content for you.

That's essentially what we're doing here. We're using KNN Analysis, which is supervised machine learning to look at content that has some engagement with it, and that engagement could be measured by computer vision on a digital signage screen, it could be measured by interactivity with it on a desktop or interactivity with that content on the mobile device and then behind the scenes, all we're doing is we're finding out second, third, fourth-degree order content, that's related to the content that was engaging and then it's a feedback loop. We go ahead and automatically schedule that content and see how that content is engaged with so it's a self-learning feedback loop there and the whole purpose of it is to find content that's engaging and show more of that content to your employees.

Could you give me a real-world kind of example of how that might work?

George Clopp: Yeah, absolutely, Dave. Let's say a company's opening up a brand new office in Buenos Aires and for whatever reason, people really gravitate to that content. They look at it on the signage screen, on the fifth-floor break room, they're engaging with it on their desktop, they're looking at it on the mobile device. We learn from that engagement and say, okay, let's go ahead and find similar related content there. Let's find content related to office openings in Buenos Aires, and then let's go ahead and go further out and look at second, third-order tags. So that would be content related to South America as well. And then we automatically play that content, inject it back into the playlist, and our customers have complete control over whether it's automatic and which players actually get this content and which devices get it and then, we learn based on that content. So it's a feedback loop, and you might find in that case that your employees are really more interested in the geographic region than they are in the new office opening.

So it's relentlessly relevant. 

George Clopp: Exactly right, Dave, and solving a real-world business problem because one of the challenges our customers have is, it's really arduous to constantly schedule new relevant content. 

The first couple of times you do it, you create a scheduled playlist. Yeah, it's okay, but it takes a long time and then, with Attention Deficit Disorder in today's modern world, people grow immune, and they tune out that same content over and over again. So, you need that fresh content injected to keep the employee's attention. 

I'm guessing that somebody's going to be listening to this and thinking, that's cool, but where on earth do I get, or how do I develop all this content so that I do have this somewhat bottomless hyper-relevant content available?

George Clopp: Yeah, fantastic question. Right now, in its current stance with our ML broadcast, you need to have that content in your media library. We're not automatically going out to like copyright-free areas and pulling in content. But with our release coming out next year, it's called our AI employee engagement. With that, we'll automatically be creating and sourcing content for you on your behalf. 

Yeah, I saw a demo of something like that over in Germany a little while back with another company who, I'm sure you'll be happy if I don't name them, that was all about using what was available through an intranet and an extranet, and other resources to auto-generate content for screens.

George Clopp: Yeah, it's opening up the whole world of generative AI. We're actually looking at both. Whether there are generative images, generative video, or generative text. Obviously, in our space, images and videos mean a lot, and there are different systems out there. There's DALI 2, there's stable diffusion. They've all got their strengths and their weaknesses. But we're combining that with templated-based content as well. 

So automatically generating content that's relevant based off of a text prompt is super useful. But in some cases, it might not be the right content that's generated. So we also will have a mixture of templated content as well. 

Yeah, I think templates are a big part of that. I've farted around with things like Mid Journey and so on, and you could see how it could go sideways on you really quickly if you left too much up to the machine. 

George Clopp: Exactly. It gets into that whole thing of prompt engineering.

You got to be really good with your prompts, and they've all got issues like generating hands and things of that nature right now. But we want to be on the leading edge of this, use it where it makes sense. An area where we think it really makes a lot of sense, a preview into our AI Employee Engagement, is on mission values and goals. We feel like that's an area where our customers just don't communicate enough to their employees, like, there's cake in the break room, let's recognize employees. 

That's all part of it, but really just reinforcing, Hey, your goal in the finance department this week is to close your books three days earlier. And so, mix that text in with some great video or some great images that are created in the background using this generative AI.

Yeah, I saw something on LinkedIn last night, and I commented on it because I thought it is great that there's a company that's using KPIs and messaging right on the production floor, and the person who posted about it said, this is not very sexy, but it goes to what's needed on the floor for those workers. But the problem was, it looked like hell. 

It was just black and white, and they were slapping up a whole bunch of Excel charts, like a stock of them and you'd need binoculars to even see them. So it's important to think about the presentation. 

George Clopp: Yeah, totally agree, Dave. I say this at all my speaking events: content is king, content is queen, and that still rules the day.

When we're intermixing real-time data with content, it has to be visually appealing. You can't have 20 different stats on the screen; all of those rules of graphic design, I still think, hold true here. 

Do you see a day when things like scheduling and trafficking of content are largely automated and handed off to machine learning or some variant of AI? 

George Clopp: That's exactly what we're trying to build, Dave, with a release next year. With the ability, of course, to intervene, the ability for the communicator to come in and approve the content or really go ahead and bias the content and say, okay, I've got these 30 categories of content I see that I really want to bias, what the content areas could be. 

“Hey, I'm a new enroll. I'm a new first-time line manager. I'm a new director. I'm a new VP, and there's content associated with that new enroll.” They might want to bias that and increase the weight on it, decrease the weight on it, or take it out altogether. So there's still going to be that human touch involved in the ability to approve content, but the AI itself will take care of making sure that content is fresh and relevant.

And the big problem we're solving there is just that, again, attention deficit disorder people have, if they see the same thing on the screen, week after week, they tend to tune out. So how can we think of innovative ways to display KPIs, display goals, display things that are really important to the company and give it a great background, give it a great video so that it gets employees' attention again?

We're going to talk about machine learning. You reference AI-driven camera optics. Is that basically a computer vision?

George Clopp:  It is. Absolutely is, yes.

Did you guys write your own, or are you using something like Intel's OpenVINO? 

George Clopp: Yeah, the two big ones out there, we've used OpenCV, that is, Open Computer Vision, and TensorFlow, and they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but there are higher order problems we're trying to solve here, and not reinvent computer vision so we're using some libraries for that. 

Is that just part of the mix of doing this sort of thing? Are there other technologies you can use to get a sense of dynamics in a venue?

George Clopp: Yeah, I think so. Infrared detectors, pressure sensors that kind of tell you who's in that immediate vicinity. You're basically correlating that to human beings in the vicinity, how many human beings are there, and what was playing on the screen at that time. Yeah, so there are less technological ways to do this and still get some good results. 

AI is being talked about a lot as you've gone through about its potential to automate presentations. Are there other aspects to a digital signage company, the way your company operates, that you can use AI to help with marketing, help with customer contact, that sort of thing?

George Clopp: Yeah, without a doubt. I'm sure you're reading everything. It's revolutionizing all traditional roles, right? Not just engineers writing code. You got a chat with a ChatGPT engineer. With Microsoft's Copilot, it's going to revolutionize the way we all use Excel and Word and PowerPoint and things of that nature.

It's definitely revolutionizing marketing. Building product brochures for you automatically, things of that nature, and then, that naturally progresses into, is AI going to take all of our jobs, which I don't think so, going to help us all become more productive. The employees that really change and adopt the AI, I think they're going to be even more valuable than they are today.

It's just the employees that just say, I'm not going to do this, and they refuse to allow their cheese to be moved, those are the ones that I think you have to watch out for. 

There’s an increasing number of companies. I just wrote about one today that has gone down the path of headless CMS. The idea that you can leave the final presentation later, the interactive element, whatever it is to software developers at a large company or who works with a large company as a services company and the digital signage CMS is just the infrastructure, the foundational platform that does device management, scheduling, trafficking, all that sort of stuff.

Are you seeing that demand in the marketplace? 

George Clopp: We're seeing the opposite. What you're saying absolutely makes sense, especially with my background and the way we've architected our product with microservices. What we're seeing, especially with our large enterprise customers is, they want a little more white glove service.

Taking on the arduous task of piecing everything together, even with a microservices framework, is putting a lot of ownership on them. But that is not to say that there's not a need out there. We just really haven't found it. We've actually gone the opposite direction on our side, which has really served us well because we've gone from zero revenue in the cloud to 2 million. We brought on a new CEO, and we quickly ramped up to 20 million. I think it's working for us so far. 

Yeah, you're a very different company than maybe prior to you joining RMG Networks, that was a weird little side trip into digital out of home. 

George Clopp: It was. We see the artifacts and all that, but I think it's a great group of people here now. There's not a leftover where people have bad attitudes or anything like that. So really proud of where the company's been, the talent we've acquired. We've acquired people from all over the industry. Really love working with the current team and cross-functionally, not just engineering and support, which is what I run, but in sales and marketing as well. 

Yeah, it's interesting when you mentioned you've gone in the opposite direction of headless. I've heard that as well, particularly when you get into, like Fortune 500, Fortune 100 kinds of enterprise-grade customers. They want to outsource digital signage, by and large, in the same way that they've outsourced a lot of IT services.

George Clopp: Yeah, absolutely. That's the same trend we're seeing, Dave too. It's a little bit of both, right? Everybody wants their cake and eats it too, right? Like they want you to have the ability to do it, but then when it comes time to actually execute on it, we typically find, Hey, we can help them get faster to market if we help augment their team.

How important is security?

George Clopp: Oh! It’s Huge. We all know that the disaster scenario in digital signage, someone compromises your network and they put up some content images or videos that are not appropriate. Even more so with us being more omni-channel with desktop, mobile devices. We've got a data privacy officer, we're SOC 2 compliant. We do a lot of work in Europe so GDPR comes up a lot as well, data privacy. So I think it’s super important. 

When I think you look at the different offerings out there and the first tier, we look and sound the same. So I think what you got to do with new prospects or new customers, they just got to peel that onion more. What does that really mean? What does it mean that you encrypt your data? Do you do it at rest? Do you do it in transit? Those kinds of things, and I think that's where you can tell the difference between different offerings. 

And are the people in the first and second meetings with prospective customers different than they were 7 years ago when you started? I'm hearing the IT people who used to come to meetings and sit there with their arms crossed, thinking, dear God, how long is this going to go on? They're now tending to lead these meetings. 

George Clopp: Yeah, I've seen it in multiple ways. Definitely, IT is still the big persona of the buyer here. But I'm also seeing less and less about speeds and feeds and players and hardware and transmission equipment and scalers and more about the final purpose of what we're trying to do.

I'm just starting to see that shift. Seven years ago, I talked to people, and it's the AV integration guy. I don't really care what's on the screen. I just care that it's not dark. I don't want a screen that's down. That's their most important thing, and now I'm seeing that shift a little bit more towards they do care about the content, and they're bringing in more of the HR and the communications group involved and making sure that the platform can grow. I can create content on the platform or I can integrate with Adobe or SharePoint or something along those lines. But I still see it, especially AV/IT as a huge influence in the buying process. 

Yeah, certainly going back seven, eight years when I was doing some one-to-one consulting with enterprise level customers, that sort of thing, I would go into a first meeting, and I would say, okay, why do you want to do this? And it was always intriguing to see how often people would lean back in their chairs and say, I hadn't really thought about that. They wanted this thing, but as you say, they didn't really know what they were going to do with this thing.

George Clopp: Yeah, exactly. And there's a little bit of power in that too. There's power to putting the latest and greatest screen technology in your office and giving you that modern technology look and feel but then just carry it one more step in the maturity direction and start focusing on the content too.

Yeah, you can demonstrate innovation by having a big ass screen in your lobby, but if there's nothing useful on there, you're not really demonstrating a lot of innovation. 

George Clopp: Exactly, and I think there's still room for that super wonderful creative experience that's human-curated that graphic designers make, and they spend a lot of time getting just perfect in those high profile areas, like the lobby of a company, and then there's also opportunity for, new content generation automatically for me so that I don't have to necessarily sit here and handle this thing. So I think we're going to live in a world where both will be applicable.

So you mentioned you, you're working on new iterations of AI-driven content. Is that the big kind of roadmap item for your company over the next year? 

George Clopp: Yes, it really is. Yeah. We've got a huge, large-player ecosystem, all the data integrations, and omni-channel platforms. So where our new development team is focused on is automating the content creation, automating that entire feed, if you will, so that it really takes that arduous process away from our communicator.

How many folks do you have in the company now?

George Clopp: We're a little under 70 people right now. So still a small company and I love it cause everybody has to wear multiple hats, do multiple roles. You have to bring a lot of energy to the company, and I just love that. I've just grown so fond of it over the last seven years. 

And is most of the team in the Dallas Fort Worth area, or are you all over the place?

George Clopp: Since COVID, we're mainly in Dallas, but since COVID, a lot of us have moved out a little bit. So I'm actually in Colorado. Some of my engineering leads are in the West Coast, some are in Pennsylvania. So we're really practicing what we preach, the hybrid workforce.

All right, George, thank you for spending some time with me. It was good to catch up.

George Clopp: Yeah, it's fantastic, Dave. Thank you so much for taking time out.

Andrew Gould, Ditto (Squirrels)

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

A lot of technology companies have bolted digital signage capabilities on to their core software platform. Often, that means the end-products don't do a whole lot beyond playing out some files on a screen.

I'm a bit guilty of making that assumption about Ditto, a wireless screen sharing platform that also works as a digital signage CMS. In chatting with the company that develops and markets Ditto, and now in this podcast with co-founder Andrew Gould, I've learned Ditto is much more than an add-on. Some customers get Ditto licenses for the signage functions, and then don't even use the screen mirroring.

Based in Ohio, the company spent its first dozen or so years selling screen sharing into the education and workplace verticals. But it started getting a lot of requests from end-users about adding functionality that made screens useful during downtimes. They wanted to get more bang from their hardware buck. So the parent company, Squirrels, spun up the digital signage component in 2020, and Ditto is now a tandem offer.

Gould concedes there are maybe some things a pure-play, enterprise-grade digital signage CMS can offer that Ditto can't, but there's an awfully big user base out there that's never going to need or use a lot of those more exotic and elaborate functions.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Andrew, thank you for joining me. Can you give me a rundown of the company? Is it Squirrels, the company, or is Ditto the company or is Ditto the product? 

Andrew Gould: Ditto is the product. Squirrels is the company. We founded the company in 2008, and we've been mainly focused on wireless collaboration in classrooms, and huddle spaces in higher education and then, in 2020, we expanded our Ditto offering to include digital signage and emergency alerts, which is something a lot of our K-12 customers were requesting. 

So when you started the company back in 2008, was digital signage on the roadmap way back then, or is it purely one of these situations where you had the K12 people asking you about it and eventually realized okay, we should do this?

Andrew Gould: Yeah, it was a situation where we were focused on the collaboration, and then in the feedback channels we had with the customers, they started asking or suggesting, It'd be really great if we could show things when we really weren't showing things. When the teachers weren't mirroring their screens and sharing things, it'd be nice if we could say, here’s what today's homework is, or here's what's going on at the school or for higher ed, here's upcoming events, things like that. 

So we saw it as a natural evolution of, “We're already on that screen. It makes sense to allow users to utilize that screen when it's not being used for the primary function of collaboration.” 

That primary function, could you walk through how that would work in a typical scenario?

Andrew Gould: Yeah, so we have an application that runs on a device connected to the screen or TV in the front of a room. Be it a projector, a flat screen, doesn't really matter. It runs on Apple TVs as well as Windows devices so there's some flexibility there of whatever device they wanna have connected to that main screen. There's just a piece of software called Ditto Receiver and that handles all of the functionality of showing what's being shared by students and teachers in the classroom. It handles displaying the digital signage and it also handles displaying critical emergency alerts, if they're fired and all of those things connect back to the cloud. 

The IT staff manages that from a central cloud portal, and then it periodically checks for updated settings, digital signage, configurations, et cetera, pulls those down, and caches them locally, so if you do have a little blip in the network or the internet goes down temporarily that functionality can continue to run even if it's not connected to the internet for a moment.

So, in essence, whether it's a teacher or a student or in a working environment, whether it's the person leading the meeting or somebody who's a participant, they could pull up their phone, their tablet, whatever it may be, and if they have the Ditto app, they can push their screen to the main screen in that room?

Andrew Gould: Exactly, and our big focus with the collaboration part of Ditto is that device agnostic approach. So we want any kind of device that's coming into a space to be able to share, not just if you have an Apple device, it'll work to this Apple TV, or if you have a Google device that'll work to this Chromecast.

We really push hard to make sure that each device that comes in, whether it's from a browser or from a native app on a platform, can connect and quickly share. 

And that's important in a number of ways. A, it doesn't slow down the meeting, but it removes a lot of IT support and AV/IT support within an organization, whether it's a school or a business. Because I've been in those meetings where somebody says here, I'll just share my screen, and then 15 minutes later, it's still being sorted out.

Andrew Gould: Yes, and we've all gone into those rooms that have the laminated sheet of instructions of, “If you're using this device, it's these seven steps, and if you're using this device, you have to be on this network. Then you have to do these three steps, et cetera, et cetera.” All of that goes away with Ditto which means far fewer support calls for the IT staff, and just a more pleasant experience is that we have people come into our offices, accountants, lawyers, just general non-technical people, and they're blown away at how easy and fast it is to get their content up on the screen, which is all anybody wants.

We don’t care about how fast or how crisp it is or how cool it looks once it's up there if it takes you 10 minutes to get it connected. So quick, fast, easy is always our guiding light as we mature the product and move it along. 

On the digital signage side of this, the way it's marketed from what I can see is, it's a tandem product, as opposed to, we are a collaboration product that, oh, by the way, we can also do this. You seem to be saying, “It's a full-fledged product on its own. If you wanted, you could just use it for digital signage.” Is that a fair statement? 

Andrew Gould: Oh yeah, for sure. We have customers that turn off the mirroring capabilities and they just use it for digital signage. Menus in the fast dining have TVs over the counter where people order. We have customers that are just using it for that, that don't even care about what the original purpose of Ditto was, which was the screen mirroring stuff, and then we have customers that only use it for screen mirroring and we haven't got them up and running on digital signage ye. They haven't realized what the value add is. 

But there are more customers doing both. They are mirroring, and then when it’s not mirroring, they are showing important information to the users. Whether it's connection information, things going on at the organization, stocks, or just the kind of stuff to keep it feeling more fresh, utilizing those screens. But yeah, it's definitely a product that can just be utilized as a standalone digital signage solution.

I'm guessing that you and particularly your customer-facing folks fight a perception problem in that there are other products out in the marketplace that were started as one thing and added digital signage on, and generally speaking, the perception I have and the feedback I've somewhat heard is that, “Yeah, it can do digital signage too, but we're not talking about robust digital signage. We're talking like we can run a set of files on a screen in an order and that's about where it begins and ends.” 

Andrew Gould: We are not an industry-leading digital signage solution when it comes to features. There are incumbents that are far more feature-heavy than we are, but what we've tried to focus on are the things that the customers truly need to have a good digital signage experience. So it's being able to create signage lists, as we call them, which are basically playlists of media, ease of use of setting all of that up in the configuration portal, so that it doesn't feel like an add-on or a thing etucked into a corner. A lot of time and energy is spent on the part that actually the end user never sees, which is configuration managing of all the media files and also providing templates for people who don't want to or don't have the resources to create their own digital signage assets. Providing some really easy turnkey solutions as well to say, hey, if you just need to get some basic information shown and you don't want to have to pay a designer or something like that to create something, here are some really cool templates that we've put together for you and they're just WYSIWYG, change this line, change the subject, change the body, upload an image, add a video, and you're ready to go with really nice looking digital signage. 

So I wouldn't say we are innovating digital signage by any means, but we're trying to create a package that doesn't feel like we just bolted something onto the side of it. That really feels like a first-class digital signage solution.

In a lot of cases, while there are certainly feature-rich software options out there, I suspect a hell of a lot of end users don't ever use more than 15% of what's available to them with those platforms. 

Andrew Gould: Yeah, absolutely. We poll our users frequently about, “Hey, what do you like about the product? What don't you like about the product?” That's the most important part. We wanna make that better, and we ask, “Hey, here's a whole list of different things. How much would you use this?” 

The feedback nears that there is 10-15% of features we don’t have that people say they might use, and most of the people say that they probably would never use synchronized digital signage across eight different screens or things that kind of fall into the more high-end solutions for digital signage. They just want ease of use, things that look nice and reliable. Those are what they care about the most.

Yeah. So if somebody comes to you and says, “We're putting a huge LED video wall in the lobby. Can you drive that?” You might say, I suppose we could maybe do that, but that's not what we're here for. 

Andrew Gould: We've certainly had those requests and we've said, “Hey, here's how you would do that if you are ready to do it. But, to be honest, there are better solutions for that problem.” 

Digital signage is not a one-size-fits-all problem. There is very high-end hardware that drives large billboards and there's our end where we're just trying to drive it on a 70’’ screen in a room. So we don't have to solve everyone’s problems. We're fine saying, that sounds really cool. We wished Ditto was designed to do things like that. You might be better served with something that's from the ground up built to power stuff like that. 

You can stay in your lane, and it's a pretty decent-sized lane. 

Andrew Gould: Correct. Yeah, it's a huge market. So there's plenty of room for lots of people to all be swimming, doing different things, and not really stepping on each other.

One of the problems I find with some entry-level, and I'm not saying yours is, but just in broad strokes, entry-level platforms don't have much in the way if they have anything at all in terms of device management, and I gather that your device management is done through third-party device management modules, like the Jamf and so on.

Andrew Gould: Yeah. So early on, we explored building Ditto with MDM capabilities. But what we experienced in talking with our customers is that most of them already had a solution to do those sorts of things. So we would have to convince them to switch to our device management platform and 90% of what MDM does has nothing to do with what we would need to do with it. So we'd be building out this whole lump on the side of Ditto just to be able to replicate the service they were already using so they would switch to ours. 

So we ultimately looked at that and said, this isn't the right fit for us, rather than trying to fight upstream and convince all of these customers that already have solutions to switch to ours. Let’s just partner with all of these solutions and make it work really well. So we've partnered with the various Apple TV MDM vendors to make it really turnkey to mass deploy Ditto to hundreds of Apple TVs with literally just pushing a couple of buttons. So that's been our approach to it and that seems to be what the customer's like with us. 

Yeah, if they're already using it, why would they go to something that's just dedicated to your application? 

Andrew Gould: No matter what I do, I will always be inferior to a Jamf. They're a huge publicly traded company focused solely on MDM. I'm never gonna make an MDM as good as theirs, so why try? 

What is your footprint, and what would you say are your core vertical markets? 

Andrew Gould: The core vertical markets definitely K-12 and higher education in the United States. We have a footprint all around the world. We're in Europe, Asia, Australia, South America. We have a lot of business users as well, whether that's in office space or co-working spaces have been a big business for us lately, as people are working from home but wanna get out of the house occasionally and go somewhere else. Those office spaces are looking for easy mirroring as people come in and out.

But we’re really focused on the K-12 and higher education market because this solution just fits so nicely into that environment. It works great in business. It works great in fast casual dining and all these other places that people use Ditto. But what's cool about Ditto is that it is so universal as a tool. It can plug in all kinds of places. We have churches that use it to show the lyrics to songs as people are singing along. There are all kinds of really interesting applications that we set out to get into flexible and adaptable tools and put into a lot of interesting environments. 

When it comes to education, how is it being used in classrooms? 

Andrew Gould: So you've typically got it running on the screen at the front of the room, whether that's an interactive whiteboard or just a TV mounted on the wall or projector, whatever. It's usually connected to that, and then primarily, the teacher is using it to push her screen from a laptop device up to the screen, and then we can support up to four devices sharing at the same time. So then students will connect and we have an add-on application for Windows and iOS where the teacher can manage who's allowed to be sharing. She can approve or deny connections to hide somebody if she wants to emphasize on her screen and not the other students who are connected to that.

Then typically, when nothing is being shared, there's digital signage that's usually managed at the school level, but we do have some schools that allow the teachers to set up their own digital signage per classroom. So you're seeing that digital signage there and then it's spilling out into the hallways. They're putting TVs into hallways of even K-12 schools, higher ed common areas. They're running mainly just digital signage in those areas versus the hybrids that they're running in the classrooms. 

Are school districts mostly using Apple TVs? 

Andrew Gould: It’s about two-thirds Apple TVs and one-third Windows devices, that’s how our users break down. So it's not quite 50-50. I think it's trending more towards that 50-50 blend. Early on, it was very Apple TV heavy, and we're seeing a bit more of a skewback towards Windows devices. 

I'm not sure exactly what's behind that trend, maybe it's the drive down of cheaper and cheaper Windows devices that can actually run 4k video and kind of stuff, the nooks, and the likes But yeah. So right now, the blend is really two-thirds Apple TVs. 

What about collaboration displays that have systems on chips embedded in them, can you work with those? 

Andrew Gould: So we've looked at the Android TVs and Samsung's OS and those sorts of things.

The feedback that we've got from customers is that they are not really interested in that capability. The limitation of that is usually given the horsepower on those devices; we can usually only show one or two screens at a time. It ends up making Ditto, a hobbled product for it, and most of the time when people come to us, they've already got Apple TVs purchased or they've got a Windows device, they're already looking to use, and they're coming from the, “I picked my device, now I'm looking for the solution” approach, and the Smart TVs don't come up in the conversations that much.

We're not opposed to it. If that's the way the market wants to go, we can surely adapt to that. All our technology is really flexible, so it's quick for us to repurpose a new platform, but just not what the customers are asking these days. 

Yeah, and it's not like an Apple TV is expensive. 

Andrew Gould: It's $150, and it'll run for probably 10 years before you have to worry about replacing it. They're really rock solid. 

When you're selling into K12 in particular, are you selling district-wide or do you have to sell down to the school level? 

Andrew Gould: It's typically district-wide. It's usually the IT coordinator or applicable semi-related role there that's looking to roll out an agnostic solution, and that's another place where we really shine is that schools are not one-to-one all the same type of device. You're typically seeing iPads in the lower grades, and then you're seeing Windows surfaces or Chromebooks as you get more into typing and writing papers and those sorts of things. So they want one solution that's going to work across the board for all of those things, and that's what Ditto's bread and butter is.

So that starts the conversation off right away: one solution, you're supporting one product across, whether you have three schools or a hundred schools in the district, it's all the same solution, and then we can start the conversations if you realize digital signage, you've got all these screens in the cafeteria or the hallways, how are you putting information up there? And a lot of times it's, oh, there's a USB drive, and we go around and collect them, and we update them once a month. Somebody's job is to update the USB with the media and plug it back into all the TVs, and there is a much better way to do that.

With a lot of schools using Chrome devices, is that problematic at all, or does it work with your system just fine?

Andrew Gould: No, it works great with Chrome. So Chrome  OS used to have applications; they called them Chrome Apps. So we originally had a Chrome app that did all of this. That was in the store.

And then Google wound down Chrome apps just because they weren't really being utilized all that much on the platform. So we went to a pure browser experience. So you just go to our goditto.com website, and you enter the room code that's being shown on the teacher screen, and then we just use the web RTC built-in technology to capture the screen and send it over to Ditto receiver and show it so you can actually share without installing anything on a device, and that works on all platforms that support the browser capture technology. 

There are other options out there for certainly higher ed. You've got companies like Rise Vision that's particularly strong in K to 12 in churches and things like that, and some others How do I describe them, CMS software companies that are focused on that market, and then you've got the companies like Zoom that have video collaboration that have added on some digital signage capabilities and the Air Teams, where people who do similar screen mirroring. How do you match up against them and how do you sell against them?

Andrew Gould: Yeah, so the Air Team and Immersive, they're selling proprietary hardware with a subscription service on top of it. So if you're looking for, “Hey, just give me a turnkey solution, give me everything. I'm not really worried about the price, I just want it to work.” Those are great solutions. But what we see in schools is they care very much about the cost and the pricing, and some of them have already made investments into hardware with Apple TVs or Windows devices, and they're saying, look, this is just extra cost that I don't need to do the same thing.

So how we position against those is just, “Hey, you can use whatever hardware you want. We're happy to run on either of those platforms and if you've already got them, cool, just buy our subscription, and you're ready to go. You don't have to worry about buying a five, six or eight hundred dollar hardware device, deploying it, or managing it differently than how you manage other things.” So that's how we match up against those. 

The more CMS type things that are focused on, digital signage in those very specific things. Again, those are the incumbents, those are the people that have been doing this; some of them have been there for decades doing this type of stuff. So we're not here to try and outcompete those companies. We just see that there are certain niches that maybe those companies don't fill as well, and we're content to come along and fill those in and keep improving our product, and one day, maybe we'll compete with them. Maybe we'll have a platform that we've decided, hey, we should just make it do everything for everybody and look at going after competitors like those. 

But like I said, the market is big enough that they can have that niche. We can have this niche, and it's a very healthy business for us, and we're happy to keep doing that. There are a couple of things that we know how to do really well versus, maybe, trying to get too big too fast, trying to do everything all at once. 

Was having the digital signage component added to it pretty important because you've got companies like Google that have Chromecast that costs 35 bucks or something like that, that can do some degree of screen sharing, and it would be people who are really cost conscious, they could just go down that path?

Andrew Gould: Yeah, for sure. We don't really see many Chromecast in school-type approaches. For whatever reason, they still don't have basic security like onscreen code or passwords. They've only recently rolled out the ability to remotely manage those types of things. Adding digital signage wasn't really about competing with any particular thing. 

The customers that we have and the ones that we're trying to get all value this functionality, and we saw it as a natural fit. It wasn't like we had to completely reinvent the product and take it in some radical new direction. It just seemed like a natural complement to what we were already doing and we talked with some customers. We're running two different solutions on an Apple TV, and they were trying to use Ditto for screen mirroring, and they were trying to use a different Apple TV application for digital signage, and they were trying to do crazy MDM scheduling, based on the class schedule, lock this app for Ditto, so it's open, and then when it's time in between class, walk the digital assignment solution, and we said, there people really want it that bad, maybe we can just be all of that in one and not force our customers to have to run two things like that. So that was the natural genesis of it versus we need to protect our position or something like that. It just made it evolutionary to move in a new direction.

So, how seamless and intuitive is it? 

Let’s say, it is running in digital signage mode, the screen is, and the teacher decides, I want to push something to the screen from my laptop or my phone or whatever, and launches that session, does its thing. To then go back to digital signage, what's involved?

Andrew Gould: You just start sharing your screen and stop sharing your screen.

So it's directed from the device that wants to share their screen. So, when you open the app, you enter the room code. We make them fun, easy to enter, like red apples, big pineapple things that are easy, not like random numbers and digits that are hard for kids to type in.

And they push ‘Start sharing’ and boom, their screen's up there, digital signage fades out, screen sharing fades in. It's an instantaneous switchover, and then as soon as the last person stops sharing their screen, if you've got multiple people connected, it goes right back to the digital signage slide it was on when the person first connected. So it's very easy. There's no mode, nothing you have to tinker with on the screen itself. 

So the management, whether it's the school, the district, or the individual teacher, they’re using a browser to plan out their digital signage side of what the screen's doing?

Andrew Gould: Yeah. It's all a cloud-based portal. So you can be in the same building, or you can be in a different state. We have businesses that are deployed with Ditto in offices around the world, and there are a couple of people that sit in California and they manage all the digital signage worldwide. So it's super easy right from the portal.

And what's the commercial side of it? What are you paying? Is it a SaaS? 

Andrew Gould: Yeah, it's a SaaS model. It's a yearly subscription. We offer a monthly if people are using this in bursts, but obviously, you save money by purchasing for an annual versus monthly. And it's per screen that's running Ditto. 

So the other thing that we allow is, if you have multiple screens in a classroom, obviously, you can show digital signage on those, but we actually allow one device to push their content to multiple screens. So we're seeing, especially in some classrooms, you've maybe got a screen in the front or to the side or behind as they set up classes less like when I was in school where it was just rows, everybody facing the front now that these little pods of kids are sitting at tables and not everybody's facing the same direction, so they've actually got multiple screens in the rooms. So we just charge per screen that runs the software, and that's it.

What's the fee? 

Andrew Gould: So, it's $12.50 per month annually. So it's $125 per month if you're at 10 or more receivers in a school.

Is that just for the screen mirroring, or is that for the functionality, including the digital signage?

Andrew Gould: Yeah. That's for everything. That's one price for everything. We don't charge more for that. We view it as, “Hey, we took this thing that we charge this price for. It made it even better by giving you all the stuff, and it's the same price.” 

And that includes the emergency alerts as well. So that ties into a protocol called CAP, which is how the National Weather Service and School Alert Systems all can send alerts. So we have a CAP server capability, where we can receive alerts from other servers, whether it's the National Weather Service, an alert system that, unfortunately, a lot of schools are having to deploy now, where it can push one button and text the parents and send a push notification and send all the alerts out to Ditto and Ditto immediately takes over and shows that alert. You get all of that for that one price. 

Yeah, it sounds very much like this isn't a constrained compromise limited solution for the K to 12 market, it's gonna do pretty much what an average classroom and what an average school is going to need. 

Andrew Gould: Yeah, we really tried to put everything in there because, again, we don't want people having to be like, “Well, Ditto almost does everything. It'd be great if it just did this one other thing, and then we wouldn't need this other solution.” The hope is that we can provide that one solution that everybody needs. 

Tell me more about the company. It's been around since 2008. Is it privately held, or are you listed? 

Andrew Gould: We're privately held. I'm one of the co-founders of the company, started it back in 2008 with my business partner.

When we first started out, we weren't doing collaboration. We were doing iOS app development. We had one of the first 50 apps in the iOS app store. We could actually get to the bottom of the list.

It was a TV guide app where you could put in the code and see what was on TV. It sounds like an archaic technology today but it was pretty cool back in the day, and then we got into the collaboration space in about 2012 when we released our first collaboration app, and then we've been focused on collaboration ever since. 

Where's the company based? 

Andrew Gould: North Canton, Ohio, about an hour south of Cleveland but we have a diversified team present in a lot of states all around the country, but all the within the United States. 

Is the majority of your business in the US? 

Andrew Gould: Yes. That's where mainly our outbound sales are focused on. But, like I said, we have a really big following actually in Australia. A lot of ditto customers there, and we are working on expanding into Europe this year and into next year to really go after that. There's a lot more regulation and requirements, and apps have to work certain ways and those sorts of things that we want to make sure that we're compliant and respectful to those things and come into that market appropriately, but it's a big focus for us because we think the same needs exist there as they do everywhere else.

Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of US and Canadian companies think they can just make the jump over, and then they get asked about things like GDPR and they're looking at the other person, “What?” 

Andrew Gould: Yeah, or even just common things like in France, everything has to be localized into the French language.

If you have one string in your application that's in English, they typically won't purchase. They value that. So we want to be respectful to those things, and they're not hard things for us to comply with. It just requires us to pay somebody who knows French to translate a list of strings, and then we can sell into those markets as well.

Are you selling direct, or do you have channel partners? 

Andrew Gould: Mainly direct. We have some channel partners that we started with right before the pandemic, and so we've seen a lot of that market move around, and so some of the channel partners that we originally partnered were more business-focused and the world has changed for business where people just aren't going to the office as much anymore, and those channel partners just didn't make sense. 

So we're actually working through a sort of reset of that channel partner program to be more education-focused with the channel partners. But we have some really great channel partners in the US that we work with, whether they're distributors or they're resellers, whether they're just purchasing on behalf of the school and passing that through, or taking our solution and bundling it up with, “Hey, here's the screen you need and here's the speakers and the WiFi and everything,” and including us as a full technology rollout. We like to work with both of those. 

If people want to know more, where do they find you online?

Andrew Gould: Our website is goditto.com. You can sign up for a free 30-day trial there. You can set up as many screens as you want, and play with digital signage as much as you want for 30 days, and then, as I said, it starts at $150 per receiver for a single license, and then we have volume pricing above 10 and it scale scales down from there. 

Great. Thank you very much for spending some time with me. 

Andrew Gould: Yeah, thanks, Dave. Appreciate it.

Jason Ault, Coffman Media

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Jason Ault was working in the traditional sign business back in the late 2000s when a customer contract came along that required a digital sign. He had an IT background, so he stuck up his hand and took it on.

He caught the bug, so to speak, and has been in digital signage ever since - putting together an initial team that launched in 2010 as Coffman Media. The Columbus, Ohio-based solutions provider has found a niche in the middle of buying market - not the little guys who can't offer much scale, and not the Fortune 500s that are going to opt for a national integrator, major software firm or even a giant consulting firm.

Coffman is particularly active providing a solution, plan and services in workplaces and in regional and mid-sized QSRs, notably coffee chains.

Jason and I chat on this podcast about its services, how the marketplace and needs have evolved, the gulf that still exists between conventional and digital sign companies, and the steady need for educating end-users.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Jason, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me a bit about Coffman Media and your role there? 

Jason Ault: Absolutely. Coffman Media is a digital signage integration firm that we started almost 14 years ago and I am the co-founder and chief operating officer.

You guys are in the Columbus, Ohio area and then down in Jacksonville as well? 

Jason Ault: That's correct. We just opened the Jacksonville office just over a year ago. But servicing customers all across the US, Canada, and Mexico. 

How did you get into it? 

Jason Ault: Back in 2008, I was with a traditional sign company, and we were doing a big mall redevelopment project, and some of that scope called for digital signage and back then, my background was computer information, so we decided to say yes to that part of the scope as well. Took it on, partnered with CoolSign way back then before Haivision acquired it and really caught a bug for the industry, started formulating a team that we wanted to put together, and launched the shingle of Coffman Media in February of 2013.

It’s interesting, that the traditional printing industry seems like this is something that they have to go towards and evolve into, and while we've seen some of it, it still seems like an industry that's not really made the jump or evolved into it.

Jason Ault: I absolutely agree, and we see the same thing as well. Just knowing that industry, from my previous life and also working with a lot of traditional sign companies, it is a struggle for them to get into because it does require some computer skills and some networking skills. Obviously, they may have some content chops and metal fabrication chops, but they still need that networking and computer element. 

Is that something that you guys help out on? 

Jason Ault: Absolutely, everything from traditional sign companies to managed service providers, because they don’t know the signage side, even they don’t know the IT side, architects, really anyone trying to get into digital signage side, we can help them in pre-sales support, demos from CMS partners that we have, training up their clients, passing it off, supporting their clients, really however far they want us to go into the weeds with them, we can help them out. 

So you start all the way at the ideation stage with some customers and can take them all the way through managed services?

Jason Ault: Absolutely. It depends on where they want to jump off and take over. We can come in under their banner; we can come in as partners with our logo. This depends on how they want to present us as a partner to the end customer.

It's interesting because the digital signage market, particularly the software companies tends to present their products as being very easy to use, and very intuitive. They spend a lot of time explaining use cases and everything else but still seems to be a big leap for traditional companies who don’t think about this stuff sometimes. Why is that?

Jason Ault: At the surface level, we are right in some aspects, it is easy to use but as digital signage use is evolving, content is getting dynamic. People want to integrate into data that's living out on the web somewhere or integrating into a point of sale or a plethora of other things that you can plug into. That's where things get lost and they need someone to come in and help tie all those things together.

I refer to companies such as yours as solutions providers as opposed to integrators, which sounds like an arms and legs hang and bang situation. Is that a term that fits?

Jason Ault: Yeah, at the end of the day, we are a solution provider. We live on both sides of the world, but at the end of the day, we're always starting with the end in mind, working backward, and figuring out what solution fits that customer's needs. We're not just one CMS partner shop. We're not just one hardware shop. It really is what fits customers' needs the best.

And so you don't have your own software, you don't have proprietary hardware or anything else, so you're able to just look at a job and figure out, okay, based on what Mr. Customer's tell us, here's what we'd recommend. 

Jason Ault: Exactly. We've got three core CMS partners that we've formulated over the years with Signage Live being our longest tenure at 13 years running, and then hardware runs the gambit to whatever that platform supports, and then we pick from that bucket. 

So, why would you have three software partners?

Jason Ault: This depends on the customer. Sometimes a need is going to lean towards their benefit more. So if we need a native POS integration, we can look to engage Spectrio. If we need a lot of data binding, we can look at Wallboard, but our largest partner is really Signage Live because they approach it from an API-first headless perspective so we can do a lot of unique things with them and we developed really great projects over the years, so that's the standpoint but again the need is justifying the partner that we bring to the table for that total solution. 

That's interesting. I obviously have a relationship with Spectrio and know their product very well because of the ownership position. But the Signage Live component when Jason Cremins, the CEO of Signage Live, told me three years ago now, that he was going down the path of headless CMS, it was early days for that, and I had to ask him to tell me what that is and he did, and I thought I could see the marketplace moving towards this thing just because of the flexibility that it presents. Is that what you found? 

Jason Ault: It is, and then it correlates to what came out and the Invictus reports last year or this year, I can't remember which one it was, where it's talking about the new wave of architecture that's gonna have to come down the pike for CMSs partners and that's really where I think Signage Live was a little bit ahead of the curve and had already gone down that path of headless API first and how they were going to market three years ago.

Yeah, I think Stefan from Invictus describes it as the old style is very monolithic, and the new style is composable, where you can come at it from different angles and inject content and make things happen. Plus, you can use your own tools. 

Jason Ault: Exactly. 

Have you found over 14 years that customer needs have evolved?

Jason Ault: A hundred percent. I'd say 30% of our business this year will be Gen 2, and Gen 3 digital signage partner relationships for us. And it's not because they were unhappy necessarily with their partner, but the infrastructure or solution that they had in place for however many years, it'd be no longer able to suit their needs.

Everything from being able to ingest outside content in unique ways, supporting new hardware that has security measures being able to pass all these, security requirements now. So everything is secure from the customer's standpoint. Those kinds of things are changing quite rapidly.

 Yeah, and you're sitting up above this.

I'm very curious because you have your software partner, and I'm sure you spend a lot of time looking at everything that's out there. I'm curious, if you find that a lot of software companies are stuck in their lane and don't have the mechanism to expand and make what they have more open.

Jason Ault: Yeah, I think it's absolutely true. Whether it comes down to how it's built or just where they're in the market and they can't really move past it. They do have their niche and that's just where they stay. That's where I think we have three great tools in our tool belt that can handle pretty much anything thrown at us, from a unique perspective one of mail digital signage to something that's experiential.

I talk to companies a lot about the importance of identifying the marketplace understanding, what you do, and what you're particularly good at versus general offers. 

As a solutions provider, have you started to focus on particular vertical markets, or is it somewhat generalized? 

Jason Ault: We're starting to focus really in the last 12 months, and that's really between corporate communication and quick service restaurants. We had some really great wins in each of those sectors and found our identity in those, but that's still not to say that we won't serve other opportunities that come to our direction either through partners or just by knocking on the door.

Those are two incredibly competitive markets to go after. How do you set yourself apart?

Jason Ault: It’s a great question. In a way, it’s hyper-competitive. So, we are not necessarily fishing for the whales or maybe not even the tunas, but in that mid-market space, someone with 100 locations, or maybe they're just coming up to that three-digit all the way to approaching the four-digit mark, we really found a nice little lane where we can help them out from setting up what a total solution should look like, rolling it out and being that consultative arm for them, vverything from clearance bars through headsets to digital signage, really every piece and stack that could be around that whole ecosystem, and we're bringing it together as one package. That's where we're setting ourselves apart from and then serving that kind of middle market. 

Yeah, I suspect when you talk about the whale accounts in QSR and even in Fortune 500 companies for workplace communication, the large ones are not as price-sensitive. They're somewhat conditioned to working with big consulting companies and just large service providers versus, as you described, the regional ice cream chain or whatever where those kinds of companies come in to see them. They're looking at them like, you want two extra zeros from us, and that isn't going to happen.

Jason Ault: Exactly. A lot of the time, those mid-market franchise orders are struggling with the balance of how do I either roll this into the total package for new stores or they want us to deal with the franchisees directly, and a lot of times, that can be very cumbersome for an organization, but we take that on, and yes, it comes with our own licks, shut doors and we don’t get paid, or we are served bankruptcy papers but we’ve been able to make some wins at it. 

We are hyper-focused within the QSRs side, and we found a home with coffee chains, I don’t know how they fell in, but it just started to snowball.

I think it's one of those cases where they don't quite understand what they're asking for and why they need it, but if they can see an example of another chain that they compete with or are familiar with, they can see, okay, this is what they did so yeah, we want that too. 

Jason Ault: It's kind of a way of Keeping up with the Joneses’ aspect, and that's where we're able to show them, here's the package that we do, obviously skewed for their particular organization, but helping them along the way, getting them familiar with understanding what they're asking for and then making sure that the value is perceived from the dollar they are spending.

The pandemic and the lockdown compelled QSR, in particular, to start looking more at this because maybe they had to do drive-through, which they didn't do in the past, and they had to do self-service kiosks because staffing became an issue. 

Jason Ault: It did, and it didn't. We actually had a couple of partners that reverted away from digital because they were now just doing takeout as more on the piece of the side where they were having dine-in. They just realized that it's not going to change. They're doing a lot more just from the mobile pickup delivery, that kind of aspect. But then, on the other flip side of more traditional quick-service, absolutely, really force them into thinking how we can work better in the current market?

And then that's just propelling it forward three years later.

I still see pretty substantial QSR chains out there that have issues with what's on the display and that they're not integrated fully or properly with their restaurant management system. So they're doing things like putting stickers over the top of items that aren't available or wrestling with them, do I stroke something out on the screen, or do I make it disappear? 

Are those things pretty elemental?

Jason Ault: It is, and it is a struggle, and seems to me, the larger the organization is, the less process there is in order to ensure that screens are operated in the correct fashion. We see it all the time, whether it's a drive through which I'm personally going through or one we're trying to win the business up. You can set things in motion, and one of them starts with integration and giving some autonomy for people to fix the screen. That way, your corporation does not necessarily have to be the big brother that’s managing everything. 

There are roadblocks to put in place to stop those things from happening. Physical tape is a little bit harder unless we shock somebody when they touch it, but there are ways to put those stops in place.

When you're dealing with the small regional to mid-size chains, is it more challenging technically because maybe they're not standardized on restaurant management systems, point of sale systems, that sort of thing?

Jason Ault: It's a little challenging. One thing that we try to do is bring in partners if that is the case. Talking with point-of-sale companies, they don't necessarily go that route, but at least we can bring in some people to help in that scenario. We do like to at least have them unified on point of sale, so we're doing only some kinds of integrations, but it is a struggle for sure. 

Even a chain of a hundred stores we're currently working with, they've got two or three points of sales because some people are still on legacy contracts and things like that, and we just have to work with those as they pop up.

Do you have to spend a lot of time educating franchise owners that this is why you want to do this, because they really don't wanna drop $15,000 on a drive-through display?

Jason Ault: Hundred percent. Pretty much every partner who a customer, whom we are aligned with, at their annual conventions talking, teaching, and explaining the value, because we just had one that was doing dual lane drive-through, and that obviously doubled the cost.  They went static rather than digital. They just didn't see the extra value of spending the 50 grand to do all of that. So, it still needs to improve the current partners that we have today. 

I'm curious about the workplace side where you're seeing traction. Like how is it being used?

Jason Ault: That's a great question. We do a lot of manufacturing right on the plant floor. Keeping those folks up to speed on what's going on, and then we're also doing a lot of just traditional workplace communication, between multi-sites and multi-silos within the organization just to generalize workplace communication. Still, manufacturing has had a pretty big uptick. Everything from screens down at the machine level to doing some video walls on the plant floor that everyone can see with some workplace KPIs and things like that to get some real-time information to the floor folks. 

Yeah, that's always struck me as more useful in many respects than white-collar environments like offices because there are typically ways to communicate to people all the way down to the level of a manager walking out and talking to somebody, but when you're in a desk-less environment, and you've got a whole bunch of workers who maybe don't even have English as a first language, how do you reach these people? How do you tell people what's going on? How do you motivate them? All those things. 

So it's encouraging to see that now, really starting to get some traction.

Jason Ault: Yeah, absolutely, and we're also seeing a couple of the real estate players that are in the commercial side, taking a look at putting in digital signage as part of these packages to make it an entire scene for someone coming into renting the warehouse for the manufacturing business.

So, it is just part of their infrastructure? 

Jason Ault: Exactly. So it’s, “Hey, this is why you should choose me over the competitor's space. We have this great infrastructure”, and then when that tenant leaves, they can wipe it all clean and have it ready for the next person.

Do you have to future-proof those sorts of things? Because if there are tenants and they sign a five-year lease, and somebody else comes in, are the screens still in the right place, or maybe a five-year window is enough, and you don't worry about that? 

Jason Ault: I don't know if we can have the right data for that. We've only been doing it for about two and a half years in that space. We're keeping it at a five-year warranty window for those particular devices going in once a year, doing some maintenance, doing some checks on those particular locations. But time will tell as the next two-and-a-half-year cycle comes up on what we have our hands on.

I'm curious about very elemental digital signage in office environments.

I've got another press release today from a CMS company that's integrated with a video streaming platform. This one's with Zoom, but I've seen at least three companies integrating with Microsoft Teams. The idea is that you can use the video conferencing collaboration displays in meeting rooms as digital signage screensavers. But it strikes me as interesting, but awfully elemental, and what does that really accomplish? 

Do you fight with that at all? 

Jason Ault: We don't necessarily fight with that.

We have some CMS partners that can do that with the Mersive solstice pods, with the Barco click shares, and turn it into some digital signage when that is not in use for the huddle rooms or the conference rooms. But it's not been a huge adoption, at least from our book of clients.

Yeah, it just hits me, and some of it, I suspect, is probably pretty good, particularly those that started with a full-throated digital signage, CMS. But some of the particular ones that the companies like, maybe Mersive, I have yet to see their stuff, but I assume it's pretty basic. I wonder if it's if the end user customers look at it and go, that's all we need.

Jason Ault: In those situations, even when we're doing the ones with Barco click share and putting signage live on those devices, when it's not in use for its screen sharing capability, they have the full-fledged option to treat it as a traditional screen.

But, sometimes, these are in huddle rooms with a door that may not be open. I wouldn't put, “Hey, there's a fire alarm going on”, because someone may not be in there. So, in our opinion, an odd industry because those rooms were not in use. Are they ever seen? It really depends on the client. We have a client, Washington Prime Group, here in Columbus, Ohio, that has glass conference rooms and huddle rooms, and it makes sense for them because everyone can see as you walk through, and it’s above the privacy shelf.

Yeah, I was curious about an announcement by Mersive. They were going into a whole bunch of WeWork co-working locations, and I thought what they were doing was interesting because it's probably quite elemental, but their whole business rationale is they've got sensors that recognize that somebody's coming into the room, and when that happens, the screen goes on and says, hey, you need to book this, or have you booked this?

If not, it needs to be booked; get the hell out. It didn’t say that part, but it's all about addressing operating concerns just in the same way that meeting room displayed when those started coming out about 6-7 years ago, addressed a pain point as well. 

Jason Ault: Absolutely. I think tying it into a sensor could definitely alleviate that concern.

It also gives you analytics on how much it actually is being used. 

Jason Ault: Exactly.

Let's talk a little bit about AI. It's on everybody's minds these days. Have you looked at that as something that can help support your customers and support your business, or is it something you're just kind of watching?

Jason Ault: We're playing with it and watching it. It has not made it to assisting our customers at this point, that something is coming down to the pipe with Signage Live and some of their offerings, where we can do some AI-generated things. But probably the first thing that's going to help our customers is an AI driven chat bot for our support team, to take the load off of them and then see if we can drill down some response and some resolve times.

So somebody comes in and if they can get a question answered just by going through the chatbot prompts and delivering a solution or at least some information to them without having to wait for 5-10 minutes for one of your support people, that helps? 

Jason Ault: Exactly. So that's probably the first thing that we're playing with and, of course, just like everyone, we're playing with it from a marketing and writing perspective. But just still watching it on how we can best utilize it by putting it into production for customer sake. 

Yeah, my son is heavily into AI to the point where he is doing consulting for some people on what tools to use and everything else, and I've got him doing some work for me, and I've looked at things, and the image generation is interesting, but it's still very weird and surreal in certain respects, and on the writing side, it's great for people who can't write to save their lives, but for people like me, I've been in journalism for 40 years, it's like this stuff is so elemental and it can crank something out in 30 seconds, but it's not very good.

Jason Ault: It's definitely still a jumping-off point, but it's gotta have someone of skillset to reread that and fix those mistakes or add in professional tone or the writing tone of the organization. 

We've talked about headless and AI, obviously. Are there hardware sides of technology that you're watching and thinking it is going to be a big deal going forward?

Jason Ault: We've pretty much set in our lane from a hardware perspective. Of course, we watch Direct view of the market that's evolving there. But, we're really just watching the products of our current partners, the big three screen manufacturers, and seeing the products that they are rolling out, coming off the line with, that we can put into the marketplace, but shiny balls and things like that, not really. 

I try to keep my blinders on so no one gets confused or takes us too far down a rabbit hole. So we try to just keep main hardware partners, and main software partners and run the race. 

To me, the thing that's going to be interesting is when micro LED gets to a level and maybe complementary technologies or very similar technologies that you start to see, non-traditional display services, whether that's architectural glass or even countertops, that you can start to see content arrive on and be crisp and visible and everything else.

Jason Ault: Yeah, I definitely think that can go a long way with micro LED and the cost being affordable at scale for sure. We are getting more architectural requests, flying things on the ceilings, and whatnot. So we’re watching in that regard just to see how we can help those architect partners that we talked about earlier on in our chats, fulfill some of their needs, that they design it.

When you bump into new customers or potential customers and they ask you, alright what's a good reference account? What's something I could go check out? What do you tell them that you’ve done?

Jason Ault: Yeah. We take a look at obviously, who they are, and if they're talking about quick service, we’re pointing them in the line of Biggby Coffee or an up-and-coming chain, Crimson Cup Coffee. If we're talking about retail and malls, we’ll take a look at malls for Washington Prime Group, and their 120 malls across the country.

When it comes to Directview LED, we've got a couple of convention centers in Columbus and Texas, and then some adjoining hotels that have some direct view installations. If they're looking at cameras, we can tell them to jump into a number of hundred different areas across the country to take a look at. So we're not short on pointing people in the right direction, that's for sure. 

Okay, if people want to know more about your company, where do they find you online? 

Jason Ault: They can find us online at coffmanmedia.com or on LinkedIn with our Coffman Media company page.

And where's the Coffman coming from?

Jason Ault: So, we weren't really creative 13 years ago. So there was a founding family in Dublin, Ohio, the Coffman family, and we decided to make it a regional name play. 

Fair enough. Is the Coffman family still involved? 

Jason Ault: No, they were never involved. We just decided to name it after them; they probably don't even know it. Everyone asks, is there a Mr. Coffman who started it? No, there's not. Sorry, it's a boring story. 

I know, but you can blame it on him. “Coffman did that, but he's gone.” 

Jason Ault: Good point!

Alright, Jason, thank you.

Jason Ault: Alright, thanks, Dave. I appreciate it.

David Title, Bravo Media

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

We've seen a noticeable rise in the last couple of years of visual illusions and other trickery on big digital OOH screens and other surfaces presented as real screens, when they're not.

There's enough of it that observers have started giving it names, like virtual out of home, Fake DOOH or the one I like - Faux DOOH. Arguably,  the most notable ones involve Dubai landmarks - a giant, empty picture frame in that city turned into an Adidas billboard celebrating Lionel Messi's World Cup win. Or a giant Barbie taking a step in a plaza, with the Burj skyscraper looming in the immediate background.

They're fun and noteworthy, but if people got in their cars to go have a look in person, they'd be disappointed, because they're totally computer-based compositions overlaid on surfaces that don't have screens. And it absolutely happens.

David Title of the New York creative technology shop Bravo Media goes back and forth with me a lot about this stuff, on social media.  While we both have a problem with CGI creative presented as real when it isn't, we have differing opinions on its validity and value.

In this podcast, we get into what's going on, how it is done, the good and the bad, and interesting things like the legal implications of running a Faux DOOH ad overlaid on a real screen that the media owner otherwise sells. It's a fun half-hour.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

David, thank you for joining me. We've chatted once before, but that was in your office in New York. Can you give me a rundown of what Bravo Media does, first of all? 

David Title: Sure. Bravo is a creative production studio with a very sort of direct focus on real-world, real-time experience, and for us, that sort of splits almost down the middle between working on events across trade shows, conferences, activations, launches and then working on projects within the built environment around corporate environments and retail display and hospitality and immersive attraction and combining the world of visual content animation 2D and 3D modeling video along with interactive development and design.

Would you liken yourself more to an agency or like a solutions provider because, I know, a lot of the stuff you do involves some hardware as well, like you've gotta figure that part out?

David Title: Yeah, we straddle a lot of those traditional titles. We work with agencies quite often to help them execute projects that they have developed with their clients.

We also work directly with clients across a lot of areas, especially in the B2B space, on projects in which we're helping from ideation right through delivery. And on the hardware side, we really partner across the board with folks in the AV and hardware space. From LED providers, integrators, manufacturers, and all those folks have to come together.

The thing that's so challenging and exciting about the idea of experiential marketing is that it does require a swath of people with different specialties, and any place that's saying they were doing it alone is either lying or doing it badly. 

I know it's always difficult to talk about projects that you've worked on because a lot of your customers don't allow you to say anything. But are there ones that you can provide references that people might be familiar with? 

David Title: Sure. I think a couple of things that have been fun for us that are out in the public eye; I know NFL season is starting up again shortly, and we got to work on a pretty exciting project as they were building out the new NFL Broadcast Studios, network Studios next to SoFi Stadium.

And we helped create this pretty phenomenal piece of the studio called the Duke, which is half of a giant extruded glass and metal football, but each pane of glass is actually reactive. So it can go from opaque to transparent in a microsecond and then fully projection mapped. So, we're able to go from this clear display that people walking behind it can see through to the show floor and turn it into a full-fledged display for on-air graphics. That was a really fun piece to collaborate with some really excellent folks across the space, and it's fun to see it on TV and see the differences in how it's been used over the last couple of years.

You also did that QSR in Times Square. Are you allowed to talk about that one?

David Title: The Revlon Spot?

I'm thinking of donuts.

David Title: Oh, yeah. We did the Krispy Kreme experience for Times Square, sort of flagship for Krispy Kreme.

Okay. So you can talk about that.

David Title: We can talk about that a little bit. We created the Donut Theater Experience, and part of the fun of that shop is that, as you're waiting in line for your donuts, you're standing watching their fully automated sort of donut production line do its magic tricks. We enhanced that with a whole bunch of projections, including projecting on their glaze waterfall and making tracked projections onto donuts, which required creating a piece of software called 'Is that a donut,' which is fun to use in other projects and the whole integrated system of little shows that happen throughout the day, showcase that space. 

Interesting. I'm finally getting back to New York in a couple of months. Go down there and see as much as I try to avoid Times Square, but it's been a while, so I should go. 

David Title: I gotta say, in terms of digital out-of-home, there's definitely been a sort of explosion of really gigantic displays now in Times Square.

We've got that big TSX board now with the stage doors that SNA put in that I walk past almost every morning on my way to work. I cut very quickly through Times Square to get to the other side.

Zigzag around the tourists, although it's probably not the first thing in the morning as much.

David Title: It's amazing how early they get out there. Sleep in.

Alright, so we're mentioning Times Square. The reason that we wanted to have a chat was to talk about the emergence and somewhat the explosion of, first of all, anamorphic video or visual illusions on these big LED boards. But, more to the point, these visual illusions that don't actually exist are being developed by brands using CGI artists and everything else and being presented as the real deal in some cases or being assumed as the real deal.

And I have a problem with those instances which are frequent when stuff gets put up on LinkedIn or Twitter or other social media channels saying, 'Look at this amazing thing in Dubai or wherever, or one of the most recent ones was this giant, I don't know how tall it was. Purported to be like an 80-foot-tall Barbie near the Burj Khalifa. And people are going, oh my God, I have to see that, and I was going on LinkedIn saying it's not actually real. It's just a CGI thing, guys, and I think that's problematic. We've gone back and forth with this, and you said it's actually pretty interesting and opportune.

So, what's your perspective on it? 

David Title: I think it's interesting you bring up the anamorphic, quote-unquote, 3D displays that have been happening on a lot of billboards around the world. And in some ways, that kind of started this whole discussion because one thing that we both saw in a lot of people on LinkedIn and other places like Instagram and Twitter, that there was a mix of actual footage taken on the street of these displays from that perfect viewing angle. And they looked really cool and really amazing, and then, there were a number of comps that are CGI artists creating content that is superimposed onto video of those same billboards. Sometimes, they do really well, and sometimes, with less viability, as they leave the frame of the billboard and things like that.

In some cases, it is being used by manufacturers and resellers claiming to have 3D billboards or 3D LEDs, which is very misrepresentative and super problematic. I think across the industry, for everybody, it creates false expectations and limits your ability to show off what actually is cool and impossible.

And I think it just creates a negative connotation across the board, and at the same time, of course, like at Bravo, because we create a lot of original experiences. We create a lot of comps for our clients all the time as a way to help explain and understand how something's gonna look.

We use it as part of our design process, part of our creative process, and the next iteration of that, and honestly, the first one of these that I remember being in that space between a fake that many people thought was real. The Soho Zara storefront, which was, again, a really well-crafted fantasy comp, which, if for no other reason than once it was completed, the space seemed to have no doors, which is problematic for retail. I think if you have a really killer window display and nobody can get in it, it's a little self-defeating.

There were plenty of other reasons why it was impossible. The artist that created it, I don't think, created it with any intent to make people think it was real. That same artist has done plenty of other pieces similar to this and has a history of these sorts of works.

But Zara did post it on their own Instagram without saying it wasn't real, and I know people that went down there to see the store. People that I thought were smarter than that, to be honest. But I get it. You get wrapped up, you get excited, and I think the beauty of these sorts of comps and fantasy installations is that they are super inspirational, and they are exciting, and they're really fun.

And then you got to this next level. I think over the last six or seven months, the biggest ones that I think people saw and some people bought into, and some didn't, but all were put out there without a direct statement that they weren't real. There was a big Argentina billboard after the World Cup. There was the French bag company that I won't pronounce properly, that started with a 'J' that made handbag cars that drove around Paris which looked great. Maybelline did a mascara thing on subways and buses that looked like they had giant eyelashes, and then I think the one that really went super viral was that Barbie piece that you were talking about.

And the coach had a fun piece for their new coach Topia popup, which also a number of people thought was real, and clearly, they've never tried to get anything past a permitting board in New York City because that wasn't going to happen.

One of the people on LinkedIn said, "You should go down and check it out", and I challenged him, I said, where are they gonna check out? That's a comp, it's an AR thing. 

David Title: Yeah, and it's super fun. I think what's exciting about it from our perspective is that, first of all, I don't think there's any value or any point in anyone involved in these projects directly and saying, "Hey, This is real when it's not."

Is there a responsibility to do something somewhere out there that loudly says, this isn't real? I don't know. They don't say that on The Fast and the Furious. But I don't know, cars in outer space. Oh, I guess that's Tesla's outer space. But anyway. But you know what it allows for one is it allows even small brands, challenger brands, and not-for-profits to create the experience of their dreams and realize it at a fraction of the cost of executing it in the real world. And with out-of-home in general, obviously, you're first buying for those views on the street.

But the bonus for out-of-home is if your content is so good that it gets picked up and shared on the internet and across social media and picked up by the news. When that happens, it's a massive boost, and so if you look at these current virtual digital out-of-home campaigns, you're not getting those street views, but you're getting an exponentially higher number of impressions through social media. So, I think in that way, it's such an exciting way to explore what's possible and also to play around with reality. And, if you watch those handbags driving around Paris, and it feels real, and it looks real, then that's a great experience for you to have watching it.

And the fact that it was synthesized doesn't make it any less fun or engaging than Fast and the Furious. 

Does it matter if it's not technically possible or incredibly expensive to do? If you did wanna make it possible? I'm thinking of some of the anamorphic illusions, where the physics doesn't work; the visual is escaping well beyond the borders of the display. To me, that's more problematic. 

David Title: To some degree. Again, I think most of those that I've seen start with somebody claiming it to be a real thing and that they have some special product that does it, and that I have a real problem with. 

The other question and this is probably more controversial, but on video, in theory, Brand Z could virtually take over every billboard in Times Square and pay nothing to the owners of those displays as far as I know. I don't know if those laws have been written.

Yeah, I think you're right. Ocean Outdoor is a big UK digital at-home media company. Big media owner has the big ass display right in Piccadilly Square or the circus, pardon me, and they put out something recently saying, yeah, we do have a problem with this because you have companies who are appropriating our media space and presenting it as something that they booked and ran on it when they didn't. 

David Title: And that's an interesting question. Because, in theory, what they're selling is digital out-of-home, and what I've done is made a video of the surroundings. And then, can I do a video where I put lipstick in a funny hat on the Statue of Liberty?

Or can I make it look like the Lincoln Memorial has been dressed up for the circus? 

Oh, Lord. 

David Title: There's always been a history of advertising stunts. Some of which have been more moral or ethical. Burger King did an AR takeover where it turned their competitors' logos and things on fire.

So you'd point your phone in the McDonald's outlet, and it would be flame-broiled or whatever. I can't remember exactly how it operated, but they impacted their competitors. And again, I'm like, I opted into that. Is that Avaya? Probably some interesting court cases are coming, I would guess.

Or some, at least starting with some cease and desist letters, maybe. 

Yeah, you live in a very litigious country, and I wonder about those graphic artists, particularly if they're commissioned by a, let's say, a fashion chain or whatever to do something.

And they create a piece on a building that doesn't even have a display on them. Some commercial property company has, and they see that and are gonna stick their lawyers on them and say, guys, you're using my building as an out-of-home media display. 

David Title: I would counter that when a movie shoots in a city, every building in that shot is part of the scenery that I'm using in my movie. They're not getting paid.

Let's see what happens. You just gave some lawyer an idea.

David Title: I know. I hate that. That was not the point of this conversation, Dave.

The point of this conversation was to inspire people to get excited about virtual digital out-of-home and see the possibility. But what I think is fun about it and, again, moving even beyond and creating virtual billboards or virtual content onto real billboards are some of the larger, more imaginative things you can do.

The coach piece the Maybelline piece, and even, to some degree, the Barbie piece, which honestly was so clearly CGI that I don't really feel like anybody can be upset that they were trying to be fooled. Come on, it's an 80-foot woman with no nothing behind her.

Yeah, I think the Dubai frame one with Leonard Messi was more convincing to a whole bunch of people.

David Title: Yeah, it was; I got phone calls asking how they did it, and...

You said they didn't.

David Title: I said they didn't. They did. That's the fun of it.

And also, the whole thing with all these things are the ones that really are successful because they look great, they're a really fun idea, they inspire a level of enjoyment and engagement. It's good advertising, and I think the few people who feel slightly tricked by it don't really cause a negative brand impact.

Whoever owns the Dubai frame, whether that's a municipal thing or a private entity or whatever it may be, should they be paid for that usage? 

David Title: Yeah, it's a good question, and at what level? And by what metric? and I don't know what the line for that is.

People take videos in Times Square all the time and alter things and change things and post them on their feeds, where is it artistic expression? What am I allowed to do? Because it looks cool and fun 

When you have something like the ZARA Store or the Adidas Lionel Messy thing in Dubai. Those aren't cheap to produce to do them well, as you were saying. Does it tend to be the brands that are commissioning these things? Or do you have CGI artists like Shane Fu, who did the ZARA thing, just doing this for giggles? 

David Title: I think there's a mix.

I think we're certainly currently working with a handful of clients on, essentially, virtual, out-of-home campaign concepts. These are clients that would never have the budgets to do these things for real but do have the budgets to create the virtual version in a satisfying manner.

And it really allows them to express themselves in ways and to create experiences in ways that are new and exciting and get attention. 

Yeah. Does this stuff have a shelf life to it? And I guess what I'm wondering is right now, there's not that many of them increasing numbers certainly, but it's still pretty new. At some point, if you have a whole bunch of brands doing this, does it become an arms race where you somehow there have to be a little bit more outlandish? Otherwise, it's just like wallpaper, like other, more conventional digital signers displays and digital out of home displays.

David Title: I think, not unlike the anamorphic content, I think that it's partly a trend. When it's done really well, and if you're going to go with an anamorphic display, it really helps to have a good reason to be doing it beyond; I want it to look 3D, right?

And the best anamorphic pieces we've seen are really clever in the way that they take advantage of the illusion, and it's really satisfying, and I think that's gonna be the challenge. It's not so outlandish. I think it's gonna be cleverness and integration and in the same way that it would be true for any kind of real-world activation.

I don't think that Maybelline's gonna get the same pop out by putting lipstick on a Volkswagen after doing the mascara on the buses. But I think there's another channel they could explore to find another hit of attention.

Yeah. As some of the 3D displays that I've seen are just videos mainly, a watch, the face kind of escapes the screen a little bit, or somebody walks up and peers out over the edge of the screen down into the crowd or whatever, they're clever, but I really wonder how much impact they have.

David Title: Yeah. Honestly, I think with any of these anamorphic, you, on the one hand, you've gotta be losing a certain number of impressions because it simply doesn't make the impression, a valuable impression from a lot of angles. But it makes a really big impression from the right angle.

Which is a very narrow-angle typically. 

David Title: Although there are so many of these right now in New York, and I do think folks are beginning to understand how to make things that have a slightly better and wider viewing angle by just not pushing the 3D illusion quite as deep.

You can get away with it a little better, but obviously, a big hope for doing these 3D boards is that somebody is filming them and sharing them, or the client is doing that and getting that extra engagement through social media. I think, again, it loses its amazing value for just being seemingly 3D.

And now we're into the second wave of this, where it actually has to be smart, interesting, and relevant, and all the things that good marketing and good advertising have to be successful regardless of the channel that you're using. 

Yeah, I was over in Germany at a conference about a month and a half ago, and one of the presentations was from Ocean Outdoor, the UK Media firm.

They're in some other countries as well, and they were talking about 3D projects like that, and one of 'em was in a shopping mall in Denmark, and then I asked them, Specifically, did you guys shoot this and socialize it out of your own channels to make sure that you had a really good, perfectly positioned camera angle on this?

And you used that to amplify it because I wrote a piece about that one in particular. 'cause some consumers shot it from an off angle, and you could see how crappy it looked. 

David Title: Yeah. I remember when they first started popping up before I saw my first one in New York. I was literally on LinkedIn begging people who live nearby to shoot at any of those from an off-angle.

Just so people would understand. Not again; this is nothing. I think it's cool as hell. I really love that we make anamorphic content. I think it's really cool. I love optical illusions in general. We have a long history at Bravo of projection mapping, which is all about optical illusion.

Because I love triggering the brain without any magical technology. It's just the beauty of how our brains work in perspectives, and it's great. Super cool. But, it really matters for people who are looking to utilize any of these technologies. We're. Obviously, we're almost at the end here, so I'm not gonna mention the H word, 'Holograms.'

Oh, go ahead. 

David Title: Holograms. There aren't any, but It's important that people understand what the abilities and limitations of each of these platforms are so that you can utilize them to their best effect. They're all cool. Pepper's Ghost is cool, and Amorphic is cool. I think virtual digital out-of-home is cool, but it can all be terrible, really easy if it's not used right.

Yeah. Sometimes, the best application is not the one with the most whizz banger about it. It's just right for the environment, and I think of what you were talking about with projection mapping. I love jobs where the projection mapping is very subtle, and it just appears on a wall in an unexpected way, and it's not flashy or anything else.

It's just, oh, where'd that come from? It makes you look.

David Title: I think the whole notion in the video game world, there's this history of Easter eggs. These sorts of things are hidden within the game that are special if you look or if you stumble upon them, and I really think so.

Within the whole world of experiential marketing and out of home, those little moments of discovery can be so powerful and so meaningful, and I totally agree. The relevancy and meaningfulness and relationship to the environment and all those things are really what makes something effective.

It's not necessarily the biggest, loudest, flashiest thing. 

The stuff that was done for Coachtopia with this giant Rube Goldberg machine spitting out handbags off the side of the building. Is that a more viable way to do augmented reality? 'cause I've always wondered what percentage of the population is going to reliably view the outside world through their six-inch smartphone screen.

David Title: Yeah. Again, I think with a lot of the AR stuff in general, one of my favorite clients from back in the day, a woman named Bernadette Castro, used to just always ask me, no matter what we were gonna do for us.

She'd say, I don't know, David, is the juice worth the squeeze? And I love that, and I think about it all the time, and I think with AR, you're asking people to go through this extra step, and the juice has to be worth the squeeze, and again, if it reveals something that's interesting and meaningful and relevant and rewards you in some way for that participation, then I think people will do it.

But I think a lot of AR projects go largely unviewed. Because they're just not worth the lift. 

Yeah, and it's a little bit of eye candy that people look at and go. That was fun. But they'll give it 10 seconds, and that's it. 

David Title: Yeah. It's getting more viable.

Web AR is getting better, meaning that you're not downloading an app; you're not going through all that rigmarole. The other thing is you're still relying on available bandwidth wherever you're standing, and at least in the US, that can often not be enough.

And that's a larger issue with all the AR stuff and all of the digital extensions to outta home, is the cooler that experience wants to be, the more bandwidth it's going to require, and that's not always available. 

Last question. I'm curious if all this stuff that's been emerging is leading to new business because people come to you saying, we'd like to do this, and you have to tell 'em what they did at the Zara store isn't really possible because you need a door to get into the store. But does it open up new conversations and new opportunities? 

David Title: Oh, absolutely, and honestly, we spend so much of our time just educating, and for us, it's been really important from the beginning.

I don't sell any particular hardware, and I don't have stock in any particular platform. So, for us, being able to understand and communicate the opportunities with projection mapping versus LED versus LCD or the conversation I had yesterday with a client about the giant refrigerators.

I call them shower stalls.

David Title: Yeah. I just always think everyone looks; everyone has to be very cold. But I don't sell those directly. I think there's a place for all these things, but what we really love is to have that opportunity to share all of these cool opportunities that are out there and to really help our clients select the solution that's really gonna move the dials for them, that they need to move.

Yeah, figure out the problem as opposed to, how can I use this thing? 

David Title: Right. Because nobody cares what the thing is when they're having the experience. All they care about is the experience, and if you can do that experience with a $10 piece of something and it's powerful and meaningful, then you should do that, not do the $10,000 one, if it's not as good a fit. 

Yeah, a $200 Pico projector and not the $200,000 video wall. 

David Title: Again, there's a time and a place for all of these things, and it really is about understanding what you're trying to do first, like you said, and then finding the solutions that are out there.

All right, David, thank you. That was a lot of fun. 

David Title: Yeah. I really appreciate it. That was great.

Tobias Lang, Lang AG

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Germany's Lang AG is a family-owned and run business that has developed through the years into one of the larger and more influential players in the pro AV market - operating as both a supplier for rentals and staging market, as well as a distributor for systems integrators.

The company is run by Tobias Lang, who based on a couple of chats, clearly has both passion and deep knowledge of the sector, business demands and both the state and opportunity of emerging display technologies.

We had a 30 minute-plus conversation that flew by, getting into a bunch of things - including the potential for a projection systems, which these days don't get anywhere near the attention of LED displays.

We also spend a lot of time talking about LED, and how he thinks that technology isn't necessarily supplanting LCD. From his perspective, he thinks LCD and LED technologies are actually merging. Have a listen and he'll explain.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Tobias, thank you for joining me. Can you give me a rundown of what your company is all about, what it does, and its background? 

Tobias Lang: Yeah. Thank you, Dave. Lang AG is a video-only company, which is doing only B2B, which means we cover both verticals, which are rental and staging and system integration.

We supply mostly the European rental and staging market with big projectors, LED screens, cameras, converters, whatever you need in video, and as a distributor, we supply both rental companies and system integrators with the staff of the manufacturers we work with such as Epson, Panasonic, several LED manufacturers to supply the modern technology to them in a good way to consult them, which is fitting to each other.

What amount of your business would you describe as being involved in digital signage? 

Tobias Lang: First of all, if you look at the turnover of Lang AG, we do have companies in Switzerland, Spain, the UK, and Germany, which is the biggest. Germany did more than 80 million last year, and 60% of this is done by sales. If you look at digital signage, which is part of sales, this is a significant number, maybe 15 to 20% of our business. 

The business itself is in the orbit of Cologne, that area?

Tobias Lang: Yeah, we are spotted in the western part of Germany. We have everything in Germany in one warehouse, as we have in Zurich, Switzerland, Barcelona, Spain, and London, UK because it's very important for our customers to have the opportunity of a one-stop video strategy. 

How long has the company been around? 

Tobias Lang: We are now 45 years old. My father, when my brother was born, said, “Hey, I have three kids now. I should start something serious.” He founded a company in 1978 without any other ideas because he loved stuff like projection at this time. With the evolution of technology, we ended up being where we are today. 

Were you groomed to run the company one day or were you doing other things and decided to go into the family business? 

Tobias Lang: I worked for the company as a child which is typical for a family business, then I tried to step away a bit. I studied mathematics. I founded a software company. I did some interesting things. 

This stuff is still existing and I still have my chairs, but at one point, I decided that it was a great opportunity to join the family business Lang AG and to be honest, this was maybe one of the best decisions in my life. I love what I'm doing. 

That always helps, doesn't it? 

Tobias Lang: It does, yeah. 

Is there a particular market where you're seeing a lot of activity right now and is it evolving? 

Tobias Lang: Over the last two years, this immersive art experience vertical projection was said to be dead or going down five years ago, ten years ago, and what we were able to see over the last months is that projection is growing, and we enjoy this because we love projection and this is based on all these immersive experience setups which are done worldwide mostly based on art, but we believe other verticals can follow. 

So these are effectively entertainment venues? 

Tobias Lang: So far, yes. But we believe that corporations will use similar setups for brand experience and stuff like that.

I've been to at least a couple of those venues, they work because they're darkened, they're purpose-built and you can control the lighting and everything else. 

When you get into a corporate environment, that becomes more challenging but is the technology catching up in terms of laser light brightness, the projection engines getting smaller and detached, the projection head being away from the rest of the equipment, and so on?

Tobias Lang: This is a challenge for sure, but if you look at most installations, most of the projectors are around 10,000 lumens, and you could use brighter projectors, and there are opportunities from the technology side to set up even brighter projectors than we have today. The brightest projector at the moment for the event market or the integration market is 50,000 lumen. You could easily go above. 

It's a question about the demand, how much it will rise. But, I believe we will see this too because if you look at the Pavillion of Dubai Expo, 2/3 of these pavilions used projection over LED because of the flexibility of the technology. LED is a strong technology and a strong growing technology, but there will always be room for projection because of its flexibility. For example, the setup time of a projector, don't underestimate that. 

Yeah. It used to be for projection mapping and edge blending and everything else. That was like a lot of work and a lot of mathematics and everything else, and now you can do it in software quite quickly from what I understand.

Tobias Lang: Yeah, that's fantastic. That's true. 

Yeah, makes a huge difference. The thing I like about projection is the way it can just arrive and be unexpected versus if it's fixed hard physical displays, you know that there's something there in most cases with the exception of places like the Comcast Tower, but the projection, you can have a wall that all of a sudden is a digital canvas.

Tobias Lang: Yeah, and our understanding of the word, “screen” will change.

Mapping is a good example, we use buildings as screens. Decades ago, we had a television at home and this was the screen for us, and yeah, we see changes happening and we see different dimensions of screens and in this flexible world, we will use projectors more. But in our world, we'll be LED, and we'll be covered with some kind of display, but where we don't have a display, we could add a projection screen to add some value. 

Is the partner reseller market and as well as the end user market getting more sophisticated, do they understand this technology more or is part of the role of your company doing education and holding their hand?

Tobias Lang: I think it is both. This is always about technology that has different layers. First, you have to train the experts. You have to give an understanding of the possibilities, and then you need to set up a discussion about opportunities for creative people, and then demands rise, and there's some latency in this process as you could feel from the immersive art experience and the change to other verticals, and I believe that they're by nature and you can't change it. 

From what I saw on your website, you have a lot of technical people on board. People who can pull apart devices and get down to the board level with them and everything else. Is that a bit unusual? 

Tobias Lang: I wouldn't say this is unusual. What may be is unusual that we have technical staff who can decide every single day what they want to do, because of some service and stuff like this, it's necessary sometimes, but we drive an R&D team, which is absolutely free to make a choice of what they believe is important for us tomorrow.

The market expects us to give feedback on future technology and therefore we have to look deep with our partners into product planning and technology, and this is what we love, and I think that's within our organization, a great job opportunity if you join one of those teams.

So when you say you're doing R&D, you're not coming up with your own products, I assume, or am I getting that wrong?

Tobias Lang: No, we are not a manufacturer, but we have to set up solutions sometimes. So what we try to do is, we add value to a product. For example, in the US market, most people know us as the cage company, as we did all the projector frames. They almost thought for a while, this is our business. 

What we did, in reality, is that we looked for a solution for our projectors to use them in rental, and we added a mechanical solution on top. For other products, we add batteries as a solution to run wireless. Now, we added some drone business because we believe if you're strong in mappings and you supply media servers and high-brightness projectors to the markets, you should cover the pixels in the sky in the future too.

It also means you're future-proof. 

Tobias Lang: Future-proof is a hard word. Let's say we are interested in the future, and how it will go. 

Yeah, I guess you can never be totally sure because it moves so fast. 

Tobias Lang: That's true.

I would assume that when you're doing all this value-added engineering work, it's in part that in order to service a customer and address a project, you can't wait on the marketplace for the suppliers to just develop something and put it on their roadmap to serve your needs.

Sometimes, you must do it yourself to make it all happen. 

Tobias Lang: You have to bring together the information of the need of the market on the one hand and the possibility of, what's on the technical side thinkable on the other hand. So we have to bridge between our customers and the manufacturers, and it depends on the demand or the project. 

To be honest, in the first project, you understand the need, but the solution is not available yet. But you learn from it to bring it back to the discussion of product planning, and future roadmap, and then you can return with the right solution for the future because if there is a need in AV for a solution, this will hit you a second, a third time and so on.

Are you in front of end-user customers at all, or your team, or is that something that you stay at arm's length?

Tobias Lang: We try, and I believe we are mostly invisible. Most of the end customers in the European market have no clue that we exist. If our customers rent material from us, it's just a gray case without any brand of Lang AG. 

I assume that your business partners prefer it that way, they want to own the customer? 

Tobias Lang: Yeah. We always say we are behind, we let the show to our customers and I think those who like this come back to us and we understand this as one of our values. 

When we were talking ahead of turning the recording on, you were talking about one of the things that your firm does is you work hard to try to forecast what will be possible and what matters and what the need is of the marketplace. That has to be challenging just because of the way technology shifts, and also, there are so many different factors as to what the marketplace wants including, the war in Ukraine and supply chains and everything else that has happened in the last couple of years. 

Tobias Lang: Yeah, around 10 or 15 years ago, it was much easier to drive a mid-size family business.

But today, with the experience of a pandemic, of such a war influencing the supply chains, you have to make sure that you have an understanding of the global world and the effects which are happening for your industry. So we try to be in shape around this. For the actual situations, we handle this quite well. It is easier if you always love to ask yourself what's new, and what's next, because, then you are flexible and agile enough to change fast. 

Some of the trends that I've been hearing a lot of discussion about are moving manufacturing out of China into other countries, having storage warehouses, different methodologies for shipping, and everything else.

Has that been critical with the weather the last two, or three years?

Tobias Lang: I wouldn't say critical, but it is part of the game. This is mostly a discussion around LEDs, and in the end, you have to understand that even if you produce an LED panel in Europe, there will still be parts that will be supplied from Asia.

So it's only bringing the challenge to different classes regarding customs rules. It is a bit about politics because it depends on what the European Union will change in the rules of customs, I think there is a similar story in the US. 

When I was at the Munich Digital Signage Summit Europe, one of the areas that was discussed quite a bit was green signage and sustainability. Is that factoring into how you do business?

Tobias Lang: Yeah, a lot, and this is rising fast, and I believe there's no stopping it. So it will continue to rise. 

In every single supply chain, you will have to report what you do regarding sustainability. You will have to explain yourself in the future much more intensively, much more often how you face this challenge. As a company, it's very important that you have to accept these circumstances and then you should work on it.

Energy management and conservation and cutting energy costs were something that was around prior to the Ukraine War and everything that kind of bubbled out that, but has that really heightened in the last year and a half? 

Tobias Lang: Yes, there is a different pace of this change. I'll give you an example.

Last September, there was a new rule by the European Union that all signage displays had to be turned off in Germany between 10:00 PM and 6:00 AM, and most LED screens were never built to be turned off, so they just used a black image to be turned off. But in reality, they were still running. 

So this was a challenge, no one was prepared for and I think it's sustainable and good that we now have the discussion of how to manufacture an LED screen, which is easy, honestly speaking, that you can turn off every day. 

 Yeah, I didn't even know that until I was at the Munich thing, because you just assume it's a display, there's an on-and-off. Why is it difficult for them to be turned off and then turned back on gracefully? 

Tobias Lang: Honestly, in most installations, those screens were done modular, which is no surprise because it's cheaper in transport, and then you set up the screen, and you do some kind of dressing, and not all screens understand the dressing once you turn the screen on. 

The result is if you turn the screens off, you can turn it on again. You need to have an LED Technician too, because the dressing is no longer working. These are just simple things, but this is a different way of thinking because, in the past, people were consulted to let the screen runs. 

And are there workarounds? Is this all being addressed? 

Tobias Lang: Yes, there are some workarounds out there. There's a lot ongoing and I believe this story will be done in 12 to 18 months completely.

It is a learning curve, and it also shows the strengths of our industry that we can adapt fast. We can do a lot regarding sustainability because we can save energy quickly if we focus on the right questions. In an absolute way of thinking, we are maybe not the greenest industry, but in relation from year to year, we improved so much that we can be proud as an industry of what we are doing.

Is it a hardware fix that puts an intermediary device, or is it a software fix, or is it like the new generation of Nova Star controllers and so on that will get around that?

Tobias Lang: So, in the first step, it is a hardware fix, what is done now, and in the second step, it will be mostly a software fix.

One of the things that I read in another article that was attributed to you was, and we were talking ahead of this discussion, you were saying how LED and LCD will merge, and I was thinking it kind of is because LCDs are using LEDs as their backlighting and so on, but you're talking about something different here, right?

Tobias Lang: First of all, I have to mention that it is tremendous what is happening in 2023 in the LED market. When I went to ISE, I was surprised at how many manufacturers talked about micro LEDs…

And some of it actually was true micro LED.

Tobias Lang: Yeah, that's true. But before this year's ISE, it looked like all the manufacturers of high-resolution LEDs were going to chip-on-board technology, and then the semiconductors offered a micro LED package, so a package again with where you could do pick and place like with SMDs to produce an LED panel, and a lot of companies looked into this and announced that where they will have a product in future based on this technology. And I wondered, okay. Is this even before COB has started to come to the top the end of COB because there is a superior technology? 

This is still an open question. I can't answer it by today. But it shows how interesting it is, and the comment about LED and LCD merging is based on the fact that now nearly every former LCD manufacturer, like the Chinese BOE, is joining the LED race because everyone is accepting that there will be a lot of replacement from the LED or former LCD installations and based on this challenge, a lot of LCD manufacturers ask their health how to use the stuff they did in the past, and they found out that if they use the transistor film, they have an LCD, they could supply active matrix solutions based on LED as the video source. So driving every single pixel by a transistor to get a value as a product that is superior to what we know. 

So I believe we will see screens that are more flexible, and more transparent than we used to, and this is incredibly interesting because it will change our understanding of the word display and screen to have just one dimension in a 4:3 or 16:9 screen. We have to start to think completely differently, and the funny thing is that the concept of active matrix and passive matrix, I don't know, maybe 30 years old or whatever, was there as long as I am in the industry, but it was always too expensive to drive every single pixel and there were no advantages, but now it seems like an active matrix became reachable in a price range, and there are supplies added values because you get such light and flexible products and for example, the hype of the transparent LED from Muxwave we saw at the last shows was one of the rising stars, gives us a first look in the first understanding of what could be the future, what could be possible and I’m pretty sure we will see many more products based on this technology. 

Not everyone, to be honest, agrees that this is the way to go. There are some manufacturers which believe passive matrix is still the way to go, but there are also a lot of manufacturers which believe in active matrix. It is very interesting to follow this discussion and to see every single move of the different manufacturers, and this is for example, for me, a strong argument why it is wrong as a market player just to visit one show a year. That's the reason why you have to show ISE and InfoComm, Display Week because the different levels of information you get at the different shows by the different timing is helping me so much to face these questions.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. When you're talking about TFT, does that limit the dimensions and shape of the displays to how LCD is made right now in terms of having mother glass, and the largest display you're going to get is 105 inches, or does that not really in play here?

Tobias Lang: Yeah, I'm not an expert, to be honest, on LCD factories. What is the limitation of the size? Is it the glass? Is this the Tft? Is it a combination? But for sure, this will have an influence on active matrix products. 

For example, at Muxwave, it's about the drivers, the number of pixels, you can reach, it’s not about the transistors. So this question will be answered by yes/maybe if you have really high-resolution products, and maybe by no, if you have lower-resolution products.

Because you do a lot of work in the rental market, equipment is going to be put up and torn down repeatedly. You have to think a lot about durability, right?

Tobias Lang: Yes, that's true, and redundancy. This is one of the main challenges. If we face AV over IP, which will come into our market for sure, and we believe based on XMTP and IPMX but it is a change, and people in the event, want to be sure that everything is working out because if you look at a modern event what kind of amount of setup timing those professional players have left, it's quite tight, and they need to be sure that everything is working and therefore, we have to understand that our role is to make their work as easy as possible. 

Having chip-on-board and things with hardened or more durable surfaces and having lightweight, grid-based systems, even down to something like the Muxwave product, which is super thin and would go up and down pretty easily, that stuff, I assume, is pretty attractive? 

Tobias Lang: Yeah, that's one of the arguments we believe you will see those solutions in rental and staging too because there are advantages in rental and staging regarding transport cost, which is also a question which is regarding sustainability, and then it is an advantage quite often, in setup timing. 

There will be a mix, and this is somehow in our life so incredible that you can always learn from one vertical to the other, so sometimes technology, which is done for integration, will be helpful in event and staging and vice versa.

Last question. I'm curious if there's a project that you've seen in the last year or so, digital signage or pro AV in some way where you thought, okay, that's really good, that's where this is all going. 

Tobias Lang: As you can imagine, I was involved in several projects, and I don't want to mention any particular out of this, but I can tell you I'm really looking forward to coming to Vegas to see the fair by myself in real life because I did some running when they were setting it up while different shows in the morning and I always pass by, and when I saw the first images on social media, I was excited and this is for sure a big thing, and like I think everyone in the industry, I would love to see it in real life. 

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that in December when I go to Digital Signage Experience. I've been watching it for a while now and actually trying to do a podcast with them, and maybe one day they'll say, yes.

Tobias Lang: I will for sure listen to this podcast. 

Yes. It's the company that's the LED suppliers, the same one that put the LEDs on the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, Montreal Company. Alright. Tobias, thank you very much for spending time with me. 

Tobias Lang: Much appreciated, Dave. Thank you for having the interest, and I enjoyed every single second.

Bernd Albl, Umdasch - The Store Makers

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

The Austrian firm Umdasch refers to itself as The Store Makers - designing, building and kitting out retail stores at scale both in Europe and globally.

About seven or eight years ago, the company looked at the shifting state of retail and realized that staying relevant meant adding digital to its toolset - a decision that's played out nicely for the business unit, which is part of a much bigger holding company that is a global leader in construction - from office towers to single family homes.

I first met Bernd Albl earlier this year at ISE, knowing almost nothing about Umdasch and not a whole lot more about what the company refers to as shop-fitting. But after this podcast chat, I now know a whole lot more about the company and more broadly about the expectations, challenges and demands of properly designing and equipping retail in 2023.

We get into a lot of things, including defining experience in retail. We also have an interesting discussion about sustainability in retail - particularly a shift from doing store refreshes every five to seven years, to 10 years and longer. That's driven mainly by demands to stop tossing out perfectly good wood, plastic and metal finishings to make way for new designs. One of the beauties of applying digital is its ability to refresh a store's look and feel by changing files, not hard materials.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Bernd, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me what Umdasch does and what it means by store makers? 

Bernd Albl: Okay, Dave. First of all, thanks for having me. Umdasch actually is a family-owned company within the History of Wealth brand for about 150 years. We are a shopfitting company, basically focused on the European market, and we are building stores in different areas, from fruit areas to grocery stores, the fashion industry, banks, automotive industry, all places.

We say we are businesses done, and we are around 2000 employees in our organization, and since around seven years, we established the business of digital retail because we saw that the business is completely shifting from the traditional millwork and handcraftmanship towards digital business and this is what Umdasch stands for, and our headquarters is in Austria, in Amstetten.

For people who don't know Austria like me, where would you locate it? Is it by Vienna or somewhere else? 

Bernd Albl: Probably most of you might know of Munich, Salzburg, or Vienna, and Amstetten is in the middle between Munich, Salzburg, and Vienna, around one and a half hours away from Vienna towards Germany, in that direction. 

Umdasch is quite a big company. I think I saw the turnover is 1.5 billion Euros.

Bernd Albl: So, this is when you're talking about the whole company. Umdasch is basically three company pillars. The biggest one is called Doka, which is a forworking company, and it is also established in the North American market. 

So, we always say that about every building is higher than 200 meters in the world is by 80% built by Umdasch Technology, and the second one is ours one, it's the Umdasch store makes its shopfitting business, and the youngest group is Ventures, where we invest venture capital for disruptive technologies in the field of construction and in the field of retail technology. And in total, yes, we are doing around 1.5 billion euros turnover. 

So you're pretty substantially backed in terms of your initiative. You're anything but a startup.. 

Bernd Albl: Yes, that's definitely right. 

When you say you are doing the build of stores, is that the build, including the whole actual physical building or when you're talking about store makers or shop fitters, you're talking about the interior?

Bernd Albl: It's a very good question. The value chain in projects in the past, we usually were focused on the interior design, on the production of interior installation of interior shop fitting. But as I mentioned, as we are a big company, we are also building those big buildings with our technology. So our supply chain is moving in the direction of a very early stage of building. When it's in the building phase where Umdasch comes in and that’s where we want to jump in and guide the customer from building to the interior, to the operating of the building as well as the stores.

So we are serving the customer of the whole supply chain and operating chain of buildings, basically not just focused on shop fitting. 

When you mentioned that the digital end of this was started about seven years ago. Was that the result of seeing an opportunity or because the retail industry and the requirements and ask of the retail customers was to incorporate this in there, so you had to add this?

Bernd Albl: Honestly, some years ago, we had very tough times in shop fitting. We had losses at the end of the year, and we have seen that with the rise of standard online shopping, we are faced with a very big shift of how customers are shopping in the future.

And this brought us in real trouble some years ago, and we were faced with the decision, what should we do? Should we run away, or should we jump into this new topic, integrate and develop our core business? And this is what we have done, and about it was eight years ago we sat together and said which technology should we start in terms of retail technology because there are so many technologies in the market, but what should be the first step for Umdasch which customers and retailers believe that we can deliver? And the second aspect was how we can handle the shift of parroting within our employees. Because some of them were afraid as they know that online shopping and digital technologies are our enemies and core business, and now we want to bring them into our core organization.

And therefore, we figured out two technologies at the beginning. The first was digital signage to replace a poster price screen, and the second one was electronic shelf labeling, it’s the price tag on the shelf. With those two technologies, we started the digital initiatives within the Umdasch group in terms of retail and where we started the shift of paradigm and the shift of the whole organization towards getting more and more digital,

That's not an easy shift to make for a more traditionally focused company. Is it? A lot of training, a lot of education. 

Bernd Albl: That's right. On the one hand, we have definitely shown our employees the chance we have. On the other hand, yes, we have to convince them and train them how to integrate screens. It sounds very simple when you say just implement a screen but honestly, mistakes in the implementation of hardware are still done. When you look through stores in the market, air circulation maintenance, possibilities and all those things and we are not focused on one single store project. We are focused on rollouts where we built thousands of stores and there you have to really exactly plan how you implement this. Because if you don't do this very carefully and you have any troubles, for example, with air circulation and you have snack work afterwards and you have to make changes then it costs a lot of money.

So therefore we have to create the knowledge of our technical designers when they are designing the furniture and the stores. And there are many other aspects where we teach them how to implement this and not just in terms of digital signage but also in terms of electronic shelf labeling, and I would say it's booming since Corona, where we have seen many of the big retail chains there, which are investing hundreds of millions of dollars and euros. For example, Walmart, as you might  know, had decided to implement electronic shelf labels in the North American market.

There is a few million hundred dollar project which is currently started. They have to exactly plan how to implement those simple little looking electronic shelf labels on the shelf edge. That it's not falling down, that it's not stolen, doesn't get broken et cetera, and that the appearance of the whole shelf is still working as soon as an electronic shelf labeling is put in front of the product on the shelf edge.

And there could be a real disconnect between building engineers and pure interior design teams with the technology that then has to go in. I've heard of and seen endless cases of why did they do that? And why didn't these folks talk to each other? So if you can keep that all within one business entity doing all that planning then you don't get those disconnects, right? 

Bernd Albl: Definitely, and this was one reason why we have merged different departments within Umdasch together where we have brought together, for example, in Duisburg in Germany, we have built it up a new office where we brought together all the interior designers together with our digital retail designers, where the digital storytelling comes together with the shop fitting design, storytelling i would say, that you definitely see the red line through the customer experience when it's designed. And this was one of the mistakes we also made in the past, that we separated those teams that we said, ’okay let's plan the store, and afterwards we plan the digital applications’.

But, we instantly saw that it's not working, because the harmony and the whole concept wasn't given, therefore it's very necessary that as soon as and in the very early stage of the project, both competencies in the organization are working on the project and start communicating instantly together with the customer to realize shop fitting journeys of the customer which are working. 

I don't know your business, but I assume for a more traditional shop fitting a company as part of a larger team that's doing any number of things, and you become a contractor to a larger project, whereas with this I'm getting the sense that you guys start right at the strategy stage and carry on through the project execution, and I'm wondering, do you also do aftercare, are you doing managed services where you're managing the digital signage component of the the retail network?

Bernd Albl: Definitely this is something you have to provide in terms of digital installation, as many other full service integrators we were serving in a very early stage from the concept until software development and installation. Also, operating means content creation, hosting onsite services et cetera. But, what we have seen in combination with shop fitting, we have seen that those competencies which we already have in terms of digital are asked in the future from shop fitters. That means that the retailer wants to have a single point of contact, the kind of support hotline for shop fitting topics.

If he needs other shelves, or if he needs when something's broken, or if he needs extra components. He doesn't want to contact different points within the organization. He wants to have one single point of contact, and we have also faced the topic of SLAs within shop fitting, so that we have to react within a certain period of time and fix the problem onsite.

Why? Because, the furniture which will be produced in the near future, will get smarter and sensors will be implemented. And as soon as you have technical and electronic components within the traditional shop fitting environment you need those services, maintenance and operating services for customers.

One easy topic is, for example, the cash desk. 

Right. When you're talking about sensors, that's something you could do right now, but is it a case of the sensor technology and the thinking behind all of that needs to just mature a bit more so that it's fully integrated as opposed to something you add on.

Bernd Albl: First of all, yes, some installations we are doing are stupid ones, which are not reacting based on sensors. Yes, we definitely see that trend on the market. The sensors will be unable to allow the retail to get more flexible, to get more target oriented to decrease the loss by improper communication to customers when it comes to digital signage, for example, where there is the combination of sensors when you use it for audience measurement and smart targeting.

And we have seen sensors, weight sensors, light sensors, out of shelf sensors, however in terms of loitering, in terms of queue management where we see that the different kinds of sensors are getting more and more popular. And everything that pays in for the retailer to optimize processes because all of them have stuff topics that they don't find the stuff they need on the shop floor, so we have to help them to optimize the process costs and reduce the effort for the staff they have on the shop floor. And the other thing is to increase the shop experience for the customer, and sensors will definitely be one of the hot topics for the near future, and this is why you are seeing when you look on the signage market or on other retail technology markets that camera sensors, optical sensors and the radar sensors are getting more and more required from integrators and asked by retailers for smart solutions.

And when you're using things like audience measurement technologies, whether it's camera base, radar base, whatever it may be. What are they looking to get out of that? Are they just trying to understand how the store works or are they trying to do almost personalized, one-to-one messaging to shoppers as they come within a quote unquote a strike zone. 

Bernd Albl: As I mentioned, one thing is definitely to optimize the one-to-one communication to the customer that you send the right message to the right customer. Let's say, if he is a male customer in the age between 25 and 35, that we play out the right playlist when he's looking on the screen first of all.

Therefore, optimizing the one-to-one communication to the customer, and the other thing is we are using the sensors for reducing process costs for the retailer. For example, one of the hot topics currently is off the shelf management or expired date management, this is something everybody's working on, how they can support the retailer to reduce those process costs for him.

And those are the most important two areas where sensors are currently asked for and audience measurement, for example, as I mentioned, there is one use case where you can use a sensor. 

Let's talk about some of the trends you're talking about. I was reading through some Umdasch material as well as some interviews, and one of the areas that was mentioned as a trend is individualization. What do you mean by that? 

Bernd Albl: We definitely see that many brands are closing their stores. Many are reducing the number of stores they have in the field, and they want to increase the customer experience when they're entering the store, and one big criteria is how to hold the customer as long as possible in the store and to increase his basket to create a high level of individualization for him. Individualization means that we show the right information to him to give in an atmosphere and ambient design where he feels convenient and also we compare a little bit when you go online shopping or when you go on websites due to cookies and other trackers, it's very easy to flexibly create the web information based on your requirements, and this is something the customer has used and is standard for him and this is in some kind we try to transform those flexibility of experience rooms to the real store. That means that we want to play out the right stores, that we send the right push notification on the mobile application for his checkout devices that we probably play the right sounds due to the audience which is inside the store, that the influence is light based on the outside ambient, and there are so many possibilities on the turntable. You can increase or decrease to create an more and more individualized experience for the shopper.

Right. You mentioned experience several times. How do you define experience in a retail environment? And I'm also curious how the retailers define that when it comes to applying digital. 

Bernd Albl: This is a very good question. Honestly, some of our retailers don't know it exactly by themselves and this is something when we are working on a concept, what we evaluate together and one starting point is definitely the brand itself, the values of the brand. The atmosphere that the brand wants to communicate, that they want to transport and what are the visions and what is the reason for the store? 

What is the offering of the store and what is the message of the store? And as soon as you have answered all those different questions, you can create the storytelling around that. At the end, this creates the experience and from the consulting, our experts are using the right materials, they're choosing the right colors and the right light atmosphere.

We bring in the right technologies, the right touch points as soon as we have defined together with the customer the right use cases. By the way, this is one of the big mistakes many retailers are making over the concepts. First of all, they're thinking how many screens to be installed? Where should we place a screen? But they don't think about the real use behind the benefit of the touchpoint, and this is the way we create digital touchpoints. First of all, we say what benefit we wanna create.

Then, we look at the area of the story which we want to offer and technology is the last point of the whole story. And all this together, is the key of success, and we call it already experienced stores to bring them alive. And I want to add one more thing is we always have to keep in mind when we create those stores that we have to think mid or long term in terms of operation. Most of our customers want to have the most fancy store possible, but we have to think what is in three years, what is in five years with the store.

We also have to keep in mind how we can run the store, how we can operate, how we can keep this level of experience up for the next year, not just for one year. And this is also a very important point when you start designing an experience store for retailers and customers. 

Yeah, they have to think about a five to seven-year creative budget, that's gonna be refreshed steadily, and they have to think about technology that's somewhat future-proofed and isn't gonna look old in five years. 

Bernd Albl: You're talking about five to seven years. Honestly in Europe, I don’t know what’s happening in North America and Canada.

We are faced with the topic that our stores have to last for the next 10 to 12 years, we are asked by the retailers. This is a very hot topic currently due to sustainability and ESG, that we have to develop stores that last much longer. So therefore, we as a shop fitter have to rethink our business model because it's definitely right what you're seeing, but in the past we have designed stores about every five to seven years at that time, and about 20 years in pharmacy stores. But in the near future, I think within the next three years we have to have concepts ready that enable us to realize concepts that are economically beneficial for a shop fitter to create stores that last more than 10 years. One of those things could be operating and digital services you provide and this is one of the big challenges for shop fitters in Europe they have currently faced and I think it's a very positive challenge because it has to be done.

And this has to primarily do with waste material at the end of that five to seven years that you're throwing out all the wooden cabinets, the metal work, the plastic and everything and refreshing the whole look of the store, and therefore you're filling a landfill site with all this old retail design material.

Bernd Albl: Exactly. All those topics you have mentioned are paying into this topic and the big challenges we have is, for example, Nike is one of our big customers in Europe. They're using used materials already, and we definitely see in the design process that the demand for used and refurbished materials is getting high. The quality is not there yet, what is expected by the retailer is that it lasts for a certain period of time. But the trend is definitely going in that direction, and that's the reason why we have implemented at the EuroShop this year, a sustainability database within our organization where we do a lot of research for refurbished materials, how long they last, how you can use them in shop fitting, and therefore we are currently investing a lot of money and time to create the knowledge you need and to fulfill this demand, which is definitely increasing over the next two to three years.

You mentioned Nike. And as one of your main clients, there seems to be two kinds of tracks in retail design lately when it comes to digital, there are stores like Nike's and other particularly athletic apparel kinds of retailers where they, as well as fast fashion, where the stores are just visually noisy. There's all this digital going on, and that’s it's very much digital forward, and then the other track, particularly in luxury retail is, it's very minimalistic where there's digital integrated in there, but it's definitely not in your face. It has a very distinct purpose and kind of blends in with the overall design. Is that what you're seeing?

Bernd Albl: Yes, this is something that we can underline. Unfortunately, we are not doing the digital installations for Nike. But this is definitely a goal that we are heading towards…

To calm them down?

Bernd Albl: I would say digital has a very major part of the storytelling of those stores. When you look at night towns, for example, it's for the whole experience, digital applications also enable the retailer to entertain a big number of customers on the shop floor.

When we come to luxury stores where you have a limited number of customers on the shop floor, at the same time, you're focused more and more on the one-to-one communication from staff to the customer. And, there is also much more to the product, the real product in the center of the storytelling.

And they're much more focused on the materials they're using for shop fitting. And the luxury feeling and being luxury doesn't mean to be digital. That's the reason why we don't see too many digital applications at luxury stores. They are more minimalized there, because the product is in the front and especially the staff is in the front. 

They're in there for the product, not just attracted by the shiny lights. 

Bernd Albl: That's right. 

What does digital represent for the shop fitting side of Umdasch’s business? I think I saw something saying, it used to be maybe 10%, but now it's roughly half.

Bernd Albl: No. I would laugh that it would be half. My boss always says, Bernd, you have to do at least 50% of our total turnover to be digital. Probably in the future. Yes. Definitely. This is something where we see the trend because digital services are also getting into traditional shop fitting applications.

Bernd Albl: Currently, we're doing around 10 to 15% of our total turnover number digitally. 

And are you primarily operating in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, or I assume that some customers take you all over the world with the projects. 

Bernd Albl: This is a strategy we have within the whole organization of Umdasch. With the shopfitting department we are doing business basically in the whole Europe, in the Middle East, in Turkey and in some areas of North Africa. And, we say in those areas where we are actively doing business. 

Last question. If I was traveling through Europe and asked you, okay, I'd love to see one of your stores where you've guided the project and deployed and is a reference case you can talk about. Where would you send me or somebody else to go look? 

Bernd Albl: When you fly over from Canada to Europe, I would say let's make a pit stop in London and go to Harrods. So, we are currently rebuilding Harrods back to its 1920s.

Oh, wow. Interesting. I'll be in London in mid-September, so I'll have to pop by Harrods. Take a Trip to Knightsbridge. 

Bernd Albl: Perfect. But give me a ring. I will come over there and let's go there together.

Alright Bernd. Thank you very much for spending the time with me.

Bernd Albl: Thanks for having me and all the best to Canada.

Tim O’Malley, E Ink

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Lifers in this industry have been watching the slow but steady evolution and maturity of electronic paper products. and are now seeing them get to a state that they start to make sense for certain display applications, while also looking good enough to satisfy marketers.

Taiwan-based E Ink is by a large margin the best known company developing and marketing this technology. While the big volume is in simple black and white displays for e-readers and electronic shelf labels, E Ink has been steadily improving its capabilities with color.

There are now premium e-paper displays that arguably look as good as what comes off a conventional four-color printing press. And there are also now larger format single and multi-color displays that won't get anywhere near matching a specific Pantone color, but can do the job of adding green to a parking sign, to better indicate availability of spaces.

E-paper products are particularly attractive for some applications these days because they nicely address concerns about sustainability and energy usage. A lot of information signs that get printed and shipped to site can get replaced by e-paper versions that are updated over networks, and use a fraction of the power of more conventional public information displays.

In this episode, I have a great update chat with Tim O'Malley, or Tim O as he says he's most known. He leads commercial activities for E Ink in the US market.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Tim, thanks for joining me. In the context of digital signage, what would you see as the main applications for e-paper displays, E Ink displays?

Tim O'Malley: Yeah, great question. So, the e-paper display has two main characteristics that we leverage into those applications. The first is that it's paper-like and it's reflective. It's not creating light, it's reflecting the light around it, and it's very low power; it does not use any power when the image is not changing.

We really want to look at applications that have been using paper traditionally, and improve that experience, create new functionality, and create more sustainability instead of replacing that paper all the time but enabling it to change. So, a big one for us is in retail applications, whether that's shelf tags on the shelves next to the product or even some of the slightly larger ones that are indicating sales and special promotions about the product. 

Right, so the ESL market.

Tim O'Malley: Yes, the ESL market. In many cases, you'll go into a store, and you'll see they all look like paper. But they're not, they're actually E Ink enabled shelf tags.

And in that sense, there are a lot of installed signs, over 900 million tags installed in the world, and most people don't even know they're seeing it. Similarly, most of the out-of-home signs that are installed on street corners and bus stations are actually paper. All of the attention, of course, goes to the digital ones that you can update and show the latest movie posters, but there's still a lot of paper out there and if we can bring more sustainability but also run on renewable power and the ability to update it remotely, that's an improvement. So, those are the types of applications. 

If you set aside ESLs and digital fact tags, that sort of thing, and then the e-reader market, what would commercial displays represent in the overall business for E Ink. I would imagine it's still pretty small. 

Tim O'Malley: It's relatively smaller, that's correct. Our two big applications are the ones that you identified. That means to me of course, that's our growth opportunity, that's a big area that we can help the world, but also grow the company. As we introduce our new color platforms, we have a color that has high saturation and looks like a 4 pass printing press color, and we have color that's perhaps more muted, but it's faster and easier to use and has wider temperature. 

We're coming out with a range of products that can go into those different configurations and be more appropriate for larger installations of digital signage.

Yeah, I remember, God! It was probably like 13 years ago, going to Computeex in Taiwan and seeing one of the first E Ink color posters. It was like a 32-inch poster or something like that, and I thought that's pretty cool, but it had a color filter, so the colors were quite muted and over the years, those color filters have gotten a lot better, and as you mentioned, you have E Ink products that look like 4 pass color printing. 

Tim O'Malley: Right, the color filter approach does have physics limitations, the lights pass through the color filter, and so you do lose some. We still take that approach, and that's still great for some installations like a lower lift in terms of scalability in order to make a display like that…

 And more cost, I would imagine. 

Tim O'Malley: There's extra process stuff, so it's the same. The material difference for us was taking those colors, those particles of cyan, magenta, yellow or red, green blue, and moving them into the electronic ink material so that we could move away from adding this filter on top, and that’s where if you print on paper, you get the full saturation. If we use the same particles and move them, then we get full saturation. There was a material challenge in 2013, we hadn’t solved it yet. But some of the stuff that we've shown in the last couple of years, and certainly this year in the Society of Information Display Conference, people would sit in front of it and just stare at it for 10 minutes, and then they would say, “How do you do that? It's pretty good.” 

Although I haven't seen it in person, it looks like a very rich, detailed, fully saturated color. 

Tim O'Malley: It does. We need to get you to see one in person. We can probably send something that you could look at and send back.

Oh! Do I have to send it back? Damnit. 

So, what is the status of that thing? Is it still what you're showing at SIT and things like that, or is it a commercially available product now?

Tim O'Malley: So, in April this year, we announced that the product will be commercially available to purchase early next year. So at this point, it's getting partners and downstream ecosystems on board to be able to support that. So that should basically say the technical risk is in a reasonable place, and it's more about scaling and configuration than it is about solving any technical problems. 

So, we started with black and white, as you noticed, so we added red, so it was black, white, red. We added yellow, so then it was black, white, red, and yellow, and now this gets into full color. So it's been a progression for us over the last decade, and that progression has given us the tools and confidence to say the platform has come together in a very reliable way.

Would that be something in fixed sizes, or would it be like custom manufacturing according to whatever the end user needs? 

Tim O'Malley: Yeah. So that gets into the business model and how we approach it. The right way to think about it is that most of what we make is a meter wide and a kilometer long, so we make it by a role process. Then it gets cut down to the appropriate size. However, we're all familiar with the mother glass and the gen fabs that go through on this TFT. So there are efficiencies by different sizes, and that's where you get this 16:9 cut. So, we are typically selling sheets of this that someone else downstream from us can cut to size. But then they're still limited by efficient cuts of glass, or we're making modules ourselves, buying in TFTs where again we look at the efficiency of the cuts of glass. So technically any size is possible, practically most people coalesce around standard sizes.

Okay. So it would be the same kind of sizing range that you might find for a flat-panel LCD display?

Tim O'Malley: Yes!

I guess what I'm angling towards is trying to get an understanding of this premium full-color e-paper display. If it was a 55-inch e-pap er display reflective display versus a 55-inch QLED or OLED display, what would be the cost difference? Would they be comparable, or would you be paying a lot more because the volumes are smaller? 

Tim O'Malley: So we try to characterize the cost into total cost of ownership. 

Yeah, I understand, it's a salesy thing to do, but I get it.

Tim O'Malley:. Yeah. So straight up, It's typically more upfront, but the installation costs are typically much less. So a lot of our installations are running off solar panels. So, there is no digging up of the concrete or running a power line in order to supply it. You put a pole on the ground, you put a solar panel on top, and it works.

So that's where even on the installation side, just the cost of the display itself isn't the only factor, and then if we're using 1% of the energy over the lifetime of the display, or if it's renewable, practically zero because it's not drawing energy then we want to be able to factor that in as well. That's why I try to characterize it as looking at the total cost of ownership because we do want to factor in installation and renewal. 

Fair enough. It just becomes a sticker shock issue if you're just selling completely on MSRP or something. 

Tim O'Malley: And I also said at the outset that we're looking at paper primarily as our way to improve things, and it turns out that paper's kind of cheap. So yeah, the people who are used to paper pricing will get a sticker shock as well, but the value is there. We think it makes a big difference. That's an education project for us.

I was thinking more of this premium fully saturated color, E Ink displays being indoor products, but you're saying they could go for digital out-of-home applications.

Tim O'Malley: Right now, the highest saturation color is primarily indoor. So again, that's part of our progress to continue adding the capability to do outdoor activities. In the outdoor signs, there are both low and high temperatures and a little bit of the rugged UV side of things.

But UV is not that bad, as you can add filters. Low temperature is relatively easy because heating is small and easy to put in. But cooling is a pain and so making sure that we get the high-temperature right, which we're working on and is very close. It will unlock even more locations for us outside. We do have other products, like we've announced Spectra Six, which is the highest saturation and mostly indoor. Kaleido 3 Outdoor, which is the color filter we talked about, is our other product that was announced in April, and that really is giving us the temperature range for the outdoors that does get into match the configuration of the application. 

What's the refresh rate on that?

If it's a transit schedule and it's showing that the next bus is in three minutes when it goes to two minutes, is it pretty snappy, or does the image get a little wobbly for a few milliseconds?

Tim O'Malley: A little wobbly, interesting choice of words. 

To use the kid's term spazzes out for a few milliseconds. I've certainly seen that in demos of e-paper displays. 

Tim O'Malley: Sure. But I'll take a little wobbly over spazzed out. So the Kaleido 3 Outdoors is built on our black and white platform, which switches very fast. We only have to move white or black particles up or down. So, that's typically a second, let's say. Maybe up to five seconds depending on temperature and other factors. So, it's pretty quick. 

The higher saturated sets that we talked about, that's more like 15 seconds to update, and obviously, if you're standing in front of it, 15 seconds is longer enough to notice. So again, we still talk about fitting the configuration to the application. It can be faster, or it can be up to 10 or 15 seconds. 

I'm perhaps weird, but I think it's actually interesting in a way of attracting viewers in certain respects when it's going through this change, because you're looking at it going thinking, what the hell's going on there, and then you see what turns into and it's almost like you want to see that happen again. 

Tim O'Malley: Yeah. So, you've got a lot of experience in the industry, and you know that motion attracts attention. So there certainly is an element to it, you can use that motion, and in some cases we've tried to add that into the retail application where not just showing that static, say, price of the product, but sparkling a little bit or highlighting a little bit in order to draw somebody's attention as they're walking by in order to attract them to that product. So that is something that can be done, and it's an advantage of moving from paper to a display but still keeping five-year life on the coin cell battery instead of having to connect it to power. 

How important was going to color filters for your transit or municipal displays? 

Was that something that the end user said, “We like this, but we need to show a no parking sign or whatever with a red filter on it?”

Tim O'Malley: Yeah, it was important feedback from the market and consumers, whether that's a public transportation subway line where you want to be able to show each of the line colors with red, green, blue, et cetera, appropriately, or the bus lines often have colors associated with them as well, or red means no parking, is a common thing. Red is used to indicate something of special importance. That was definitely based on the feedback. 

That's where we started with the color filter because that was the integration and that was the easier technical challenge and then moved to built-in particles in order to make the color more saturated over time.

Is that where you're at now with the, I think you said, Kaleido 3 or something like that? 

Tim O'Malley: The Kaleido platform is the color filter platform, and then Spectra is our higher saturation, has traditionally mostly been for retail platform, right? And with the reaching of full color, we're looking to expand that into broader markets.

Is there still R&D work going on to introduce video? 

I saw low frame rate E Ink displayed at Touch Taiwan about four or five years ago and thought, that's interesting, but it's got a long way to go before that's commercially viable.

Tim O'Malley: Yeah, so there's a couple of things there.

Recently we showed, again at that same conference in LA, a display running a video. I think it was around 15 frames per second just to showcase that it was possible to have a display running a video and that was using a color filter on the display to do it. 

In general, however, the main advantage of replacing paper with an e-paper display is the low power when the image is not changing. So most of the applications that make sense aren't using video because they want low power savings. Like I mentioned, the shelf tags are five to seven years on a pair of coin cells. You could shorten that to three months if you did video on the coin cells. But why would you? 

So if someone wanted to try and do video, it would lose some of the key benefits of low power. It could technically be done, but that's probably not the best fit for the technology stream that we've been focused on, and the application we are focused on. 

It turns out there's a really good solution in the world for video. As you mentioned, QLED or OLED. So that's a fine choice for that application and for paper replacement, and for things like that, we're developing a differentiated approach.

So you can go down that path with R&D, but it's not a core focus, and you stay in your lane, so to speak?

Tim O'Malley: That's a great rephrasing. Little shorter. That was good. You're hired. 

I was in Europe a couple of weeks ago for a conference, a digital signage conference, and Europe's very different from North America in a whole bunch of ways, but particularly when it comes to the mindset and the requirements around energy conservation and sustainability. 

When I was asked, while I was over there, “What's the mindset in North America?” And I would say they're starting to talk about it, but it's nothing like it is over here. I know your company talks a lot about energy savings and sustainability. Is it more of a discussion in other parts of the world than perhaps in North America? 

Tim O'Malley: Yes, absolutely. I agree with your impression of Europe. There was a regulation passed in Germany, and I think one also in France, limiting the amount of time that a digital display for non-public information, so an advertising display can be operated during the day. So I think it's six hours. 

Primarily that regulation is intended to save energy. My general observation from looking at the retail market where we were working in shelf tags, it started in Europe. They were maybe leading the thoughts on the benefits that you can get with low power displays, particularly on labor savings because the labor situation in Europe is a little bit different than in Asia and North America.

But the trend to use e-paper displays in retail migrated from Europe, then to Asia, and from Asia over to North America. You might have seen earlier this year Walmart announced they were adopting it. I expect the same thing to happen with this type of focus on sustainability and energy usage, and signage. We will see that Europe will lead, and then eventually, as the configurations are more mature and the benefits are clearer, it'll start to migrate around the world. So I do expect that the stuff that you saw at that conference will be a trend. 

Is the mindset around being socially responsible and environmentally responsible, or is it more calculated that this is going to save us money, or is it simply they're doing it because regulations are forcing our hand?

Tim O'Malley: I expect that when it turns into a trend, which I think it will be all of the above. I mentioned that the initial push to put shelf tags in retail was primarily for labor savings, and it was primarily in Europe. But now, if you look at the recent interview that the Walmart CFO did, there's a return on investment by making these changes; we can update prices easier, we can compete online, can do supply management, and it helps us with logistics. Also, we still have the labor savings, and it looks better. 

When the configurations start to mature and come online, it'll still be about sustainability, but there'll be other aspects that are beneficial as well. We can use it for communicating with the public during emergency situations. That will also lend to the trend. Right now, it's a lot about sustainability and energy savings. I think as it gets better, more and more attributes will start to be recognized and feed the trend. 

I'm curious again about mass transport.

I've seen and written about a number of pilots and initial deployments of e-paper displays as real-time transit schedule information signs at bus stops, and so on. I'm curious whether you see those turn into full deployments or, for the most part, they are still early-stage pilots?

Tim O'Malley: Most installations we've been working with today are city by city, shall we say? Each city is typically doing a pilot before moving to a larger installation. So we're in the process of that earlier stage. In some cases, there are signs hanging from handles in subway cars in China. That's an installation. 

Late stage pilot is maybe a reasonable answer, but also it's part of the process of getting it through these stages of government bureaucracy approval, figuring out how they want to make infrastructure investment, and validating that these different applications and new cases make sense. So bus stations, bus signs, and bus shelters are a strong category for us, but it's still early days. 

Yeah. Is there any mass transport system globally that has fully deployed? 

Tim O'Malley: There's not a fully deployed global system that I'm aware of, but there's a number of, especially cities, that are interested in what could be done with the right configurations, and this is where we are getting to a full-color product is also helpful to those installations. Instead of talking about it being limited to black, white, and red, it can do everything. Let's figure out how we adapt that in a way that makes sense. So it turns the conversation from talking about potential limitations to talking about potential solutions. 

Yeah, I think Sydney, Australia, and transport for London and the UK have both done pretty substantial pilots, right? 

Tim O'Malley: Yes. Very impressive. 

There you go. I haven't lost all my marbles yet. 

Tim O'Malley: You have been in the industry for a while. You must follow it. 

Yeah, that's what I get up in the morning and do.

What about the medical market? I think that's an area that's really got a lot of opportunity in big healthcare institutions for information displays, like outside of patient rooms, at the nursing stations, on and on, and I know on your website that's talked about. I'm curious, what stage of adoption is that? I suspect early.

Tim O'Malley: It's the earliest stage, a fine description. We identified that opportunity and started working towards it. It's a little bit ahead in Asia. Right at the time when Covid was starting, it turned out not to be a great strategic moment to really be focusing on healthcare. The worldwide healthcare hospital industry started to focus on something else at that time, and it has taken a little bit of a reset for us to engage in those conversations. 

Nevertheless, whether it's an information board in the patient room where it's displaying key statistics that are relevant to the patient, such as their doctor's name or their schedule for the day. And we've done a pilot with Brigham Women's Hospital in Boston, where there's positive feedback on that type of board in the room. It's nice in the sense that it's not giving off light at night, it's not like keeping you awake as if your TV showing the same information, and it's unobtrusive if you decide you did want to watch TV, it just sits on the side of the room with the information if and when you want it.

Yeah, I suspect, though, it's an incredibly long sales cycle. 

Tim O'Malley: Everyone tells me healthcare is extremely lucrative and extremely hard to break into. We're working on the break into it at the moment. 

Yeah, I don't think there's any deal that you do in a couple of meetings. 

Tim O'Malley: But there's real value there. We think it's a potential solution. We are starting to see the conversations change now that the world is getting back to more normalcy. 

We might be seeing a little bit of adoption on the inventory management front first, where you take the same shelf tags that are being used in retail and bring them into those stock rooms in the hospitals and connect that to the inventory management system. So if something starts to run low, you push a button on the tag, or maybe it's even automated by a scale, you can have a significant savings by managing your inventory better. So we're seeing in the back room, maybe not seen by all the patients, that might be a pretty good application. So, we're still exploring ways to add value there.

Yeah, I chatted with a company called Freshwater Digital in Michigan and their digital signage solutions company, but they also do ESLs, and they were describing how they were seeing some activity around things like e-paper fact tags in research labs for the cages for and trying different medications on lab rats or monkeys or whatever, and I thought that's interesting. 

Tim O'Malley: Exactly. I've also heard and seen some of that. It's leveraging that combination of this cloud communication infrastructure and the fact that you don't need to connect the tag to power. It can sit there, it can be in communication, it can update when it needs to, but it can also go for a year plus on a coin cell. That's enabling us to go into places that might have been more difficult for traditional solutions. 

There's been a lot of noise the last couple of years coming out of CES with, I think it was a BMW that had E Ink, some sort of an E Ink overlay that would make the car changeable. Is that like trade show bling or something that's real and one day might be out there? 

Tim O'Malley: Absolutely real, and one day might be out there, but also a little trade show bling. So working with BMW has been awesome. They're great designers, and taking a technical mindset and engineering and matching it up with some design thinking created what was really a wow concept car. And so, the goal was to create a concept car to show what's possible, and what was shown at CES this year was a car covered in E Ink material that could switch between 32 different colors and show different patterns and different segments and create a lot of wow factor. 

Ideally, over time we'll start to work this into some simpler parts of the car, maybe inside the car. We also have some integration with the front lights and with the headlights and then work towards that full-color car covering; the exciting thing about that is it's moving away from what we think of as digital information into something that's more like personalization. Now, you can change your clothes every day or from one venue to another depending on whether you're at a barbecue or a formal dinner, and you could change your car too in order to reflect either location. Hyper personalization seems to be a trend. That was part of what BMW was leaning into we have a sustainable solution, but also a digital solution for personalization. 

What about building materials? I think it was near San Diego airport, or at the airport, they had a parking garage that was collided in another E Ink material.

Tim O'Malley: Yeah, that was based on an old battleship design from World War II called Dazzle, where it would break up the lines. So you didn't have quite an outline on the horizon, and they wanted to bring that same feeling into the rental car center, because they have the naval base out there. And we did have a whole bunch of signs on the outside of the building that could change and pre-programmed patterns.

You said it did that. Is that no longer active?

Tim O'Malley:  Oh, it's still there. Architecture is not a primary focus, so if we start from that first principle of looking at places where people use paper and then bringing added benefit. Paper isn't widely used on the outside of buildings as a material. You might have some signs or some advertisements, and we did talk about that. 

Architecture, there's a lot of it. It might be interesting over time, but it wouldn't be my first step from where we're today. 

That's also a very long sales cycle. 

Tim O'Malley: It's also a very long sales cycle, yes, and it's not traditionally an easy way to bring a high-tech material in. You really need to make the configuration simple to bring onto the site for people to install and use. 

This flew by. Just one last question. What can we expect to see what kind of announcements can you hint out over the next six to twelve months for E Ink?

Tim O'Malley: We're heavily leaning into applications that are color, and we want to bring full color into all of our product lines. So the thing that I would be looking for is more announcements by customers and partners that have E Ink displays that are upgrading them to those full color solutions and in many cases I think that will help us unlock another round of excitement as consumers become aware of what can be possible, and hopefully, smart cities start to look at that and adopt it as well. 

So full color in more places is those type of announcements that I'm looking for.

Alright. Thank you very much for spending some time with me. 

Bernd Hofstoetter, M-Cube

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Italy's M-Cube has quietly grown into one of the larger and more pervasive digital signage solutions providers on the planet - with deployments in more than 100 countries globally, across some 60,000 retail stores.

It does mainstream retail and QSR, but the sweet and lucrative spot for Milano-based M-Cube is servicing the needs of luxury brands - something both Italy and France seem to have as specialties.

M-Cube has grown both organically and through acquisitions, including the purchase of a French firm run by Bernd Hofstoetter, who is now M-Cube's Paris-based CEO.

In this podcast, you'll hear about how M-Cube operates in Europe and globally, industry trends (particularly in retail), and how it approaches and works with luxury brands in their bricks and mortar stores.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Bernd, thank you for joining me. Can you give me a rundown of what M-Cube is all about? I think there are a lot of North American listeners who probably aren't familiar with the company. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah, Dave, no problem. M-Cube is a company that has existed for over 20 years. We started 20 years ago out of Italy, with mainly audio solutions for retail, and five years later, over 15 years ago, we moved very fast and very strongly to the digital signage growing market, and we became, over the years, the leading provider in Italy, and then we bought different companies in Europe, and today in 2023, we claim to be one of the top in-store digital solution providers based in Europe, but with a global footprint delivering to over a hundred countries in 60,000 stores to 500 clients our digital solutions like audio, video, content, technology, and more and more as well omnichannel.

Would you describe what you do as a solutions provider or an integrator? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: More the first one. I would say that at the beginning, we were more an integrator and we became much more a full-service solution provider. 

We are moving more on the first part of the value chain, meaning the customer journey, and content development because technology is everywhere around and to fit the right solution, a good mix of the best content and the right technology, and of course, the power of deployment and service is the most important key success factor in this industry for the next 5 to 10 years.

Was it a case where the company saw the opportunity to expand its services, or they were being pushed in that direction anyways by customers? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah, that Dave is very often like that, the strategy you do afterward. So that means, of course, there were some global customers who were pushing us to deliver video solutions, so we moved to video. And as we have a lot of global customers, especially in luxury, we are, of course, a company that can deploy in over a hundred countries this kind of digital solutions in retail. 

Yes, it is pushed by the clients when you start, but of course, over the years, then it becomes a company where you add some parts where you are not so strong, so you buy from time to time some expertise from outside to complete your value chain. 

So you're one of those companies that were acquired by M-Cube. You're the CEO of another company in Belgium and France. How did that go? 

I'm curious because it strikes me as Europe is still regional. There are particular companies that are strong in Germany, Italy, France, or Spain, but they're not necessarily pan-European. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, I come from a company acquired by M-Cube, and we had the journey to integrate all the companies we bought to integrate in the last two years. Of course, there are still local champions in the German region or in the UK or in France, et cetera. But the tenders are becoming more and more European or even more and more global. 

I think if it continues like that, the pure local providers, they probably will have a bit more trouble in the next years to grab the business. We see more and more European-wide, or over several countries in Europe tenders.

And that's not easy, is it? Because of all the different languages and everything else. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, but we have now a position in every main important country in Europe. I'm not talking about little countries like Luxembourg but all main countries. Italy, Spain, France, Germany, UK, Netherlands, Belgium. We have a local team where we deliver local, but as well, European or global solutions. 

Your company works a lot with luxury retail. How important is that particular vertical market to you guys? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Of course, we have grown in luxury a lot. I think we understand luxury very well because this sector is extremely demanding, it's extremely global, it's extremely service oriented and there's still a lot to be done in the luxury sector, that’s what we see, so it is important. 

That's the reason as well why we moved more and more to the content side in the last years. I think we are very fit for this sector. 

And it's a very different sector to approach as well. Like me, I get a sense that luxury retail wants to be subtle and has a kind of a minimalist bend to the way they approach digital in their stores. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah, totally. They are not approaching it from the technology side. They are approaching it purely from the customer's side, that's what we love. That's what we know to do. It's a specific code, what we say in our business, specific code when it comes to luxury, it's a bit different world to address to, to talk to, to communicate to.

Because a lot of the luxury brands emanate from Italy and France, so have you experienced organic growth because a lot of those companies are there and they see what others are doing and come to you? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Of course, as we were strong or still strong in Italy and we have acquired a company in France we could have a good positioning, but we are now working as well with luxury companies, not only based in Italy or France. So our culture, our compensation, and our interpretation of the luxury challenges in terms of customer journey seems to be very appreciated, not only to the Italian-based or French-based luxury groups.

It would strike me, as an outsider, not spending enough time thinking about it, that the budgets that these kinds of retailers have are quite different from what you would have for let's say a fast fashion apparel retailer.

Is that a fair assessment or wrong? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: In the end, it comes to the return on investment. It is not about what we are thinking about whether it is the fast retailer having a lower budget or a luxury group. It's about return on investment at the end of the day. 

The solution we engineer, we design for our clients, they need to bring the expected return on investment in their stores or boutiques. 

No, I would not really say that a luxury retailer has double the budget of a fast retailer or whatever. It really depends, and at the end, it's the return on investment. 

It's interesting, with one of your main competitors, and I'm sure business friends as well, Trison based out of Spain, they work a lot with Inditex and there's a particular brand, Lefties that has stores that - I haven't been in one yet - but they look pretty wild in terms of the amount of digital in there.

Is that something that you're being asked about or is it, or would it be the opposite of how a luxury retailer would approach things? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: No, Lefties is, of course, an interesting case. I've been to one of the stores in Barcelona, Dave, and it's clear that in stores like that where you would expect a bit of digital, but when you see the level of digital investments in the store, of course, it's really amazing. But it shows one thing, screens everywhere. 

The generation who go shopping today to Lefties, they are grown up with screens, and there's no way back. I can give you a little anecdote on that. We had a client five to six years ago, and they deployed at that time 700 nits Window screens in 200 stores. 

After five years, the lady said, “Hey, Bernd, five to six years ago, we were the first. Now everybody has a Window screen, and much more, and the problem is that they are 2000 or 3000 nits. Ours look old-fashioned. I think we'll stop.” And I said of course you can stop, but you will not be recognized anymore. What is the story? They invested in the new generation, in the new technology with 4,000 nits screens. So there is no way back, and Lefties is one interesting case for that, Dave, that for me, there is no way back. Food retail is very active at that moment with screens. For example, we said years ago that food retail will likely not invest anymore. There's no way back. More and more screens everywhere. 

And what do you mean when you say there's no way back?

Bernd Hofstoetter: There's no way back to less digital. There's no way back. For us, it's clear that perhaps there will be fewer stores, but the investment per store in digital will grow over the years. We are totally sure of that. 

Yeah, I guess you have a digital native shopping crowd now that maybe you didn't have even 10 years ago because I can remember retailers screening out a store, like there were screens everywhere in a store, particularly for sports retailers, and then when they did a refresh, sometimes they would strip out a lot of those screens because they just realized it was so much noise. Have you experienced that at all? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: No. We have very few cases where the retailer has not integrated in the next version of his retail chain, of his concept, more screens. Very very few. I really need to think for a long time to find an example. I remember there was one or two in the last five years, but that's absolutely the exception. That's not the rule. Not at all.

What's been your experience with interactive retail? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: It’s not so easy to do interactive in retail. Then Covid wasn’t fair to the tech, so interactive was somewhat totally stopped, but it’s restarting. We see some projects in some specific markets, but it is not like what we imagined 10 years ago when everybody said everything will be interactive in the store.

Yeah, I've found that a lot of interactive efforts in stores just sit orphaned. They don't get used unless somebody encourages them to use it. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We think more about the interactive, for example, as omnichannel an solution to help the salesperson in the customer journey, so to upsell something in the store, but for the end customer, it is still not so easy to make use of these technologies. Yes, I totally agree with you, Dave. 

So for a salesperson, it's like assisted selling, this is a tool they can use?

Bernd Hofstoetter: Exactly. That's what we can offer.

When you go into engagements with a new client, let's say it's a luxury retailer that you're not yet working with, what are those first questions you guys are asking? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: The expected return on investment of a digital solution, because it does not make sense to make technology for technology. So the benefit of the technology, of the solution is the key for us. It's absolutely key. 

And do the clients have a sense of that? Because I've sat across the table from customers in my consulting days and asked them why, and in a lot of cases, they couldn't really quantify that. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: More and more. We have more and more technology to understand what could be the return on investment of a digital solution.

We always run proof of concepts or tests or pilots. But you are totally right. When I look back 10 years ago, it was like, oh, we need to have a screen. Today, this is really totally over. We hear questions like, “What is the objective?” “What is the return on investment expected?” “What do we really want to achieve?” And from there, it's the design of the solution and the integration of the technology into the customer journey. These are the most important points at the beginning of the discussions.

Are you marketing your own technology, or do you work with partners? Obviously, you would on the display side, but do you have your own software?

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, Dave, one of our DNA is to have our own platforms, audio and video platforms. Of course, if the customer says, I want to work with this non-proprietary platform, we can do that. But we prefer to run our service on our platforms where we have invested over the last 15 years now. We still have a lot of software development people in the company continuing to develop the platforms, hosting and maintaining, and evolving the platforms. Yes, it's one part of our DNA, our proprietary platforms. 

Are you typically, or most typically managing the networks for your retail clients?

Bernd Hofstoetter: We are more and more integrated into the networks of our clients. Monitoring is becoming very important. Of course, that was not so important years ago. That's now key. Proactive monitoring is very important. Reliability and security are becoming more common in the last two years in big tenders; the security level and tenders are only increasing, not decreasing, only increasing. The request for more security is increasing. That's clear as well. 

Yeah, I saw a comment from your president, Manlio that you were getting into some deals and replacing existing software vendors simply because you could offer the level of IT security they could not.

Bernd Hofstoetter: That's totally true. For example, one and a half years ago, we had a global deal where we replaced the existing provider and the main driver of this client was security level to enhance.

You're operating, as you said, in the north of a hundred countries. How do you manage all that, like do the deployment in places like China and India? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: In China, we have an operation. In Hong Kong, we have an operation. In North America, we do it with a partner. We have a network of installations. We have three hotlines in different time zones. So we cover our customers 24 hours, seven days a week. 

China is a bit of a mystery to a lot of people within digital signage just because it's such a huge market internally. How do you compete there?

Or is it more a case o,f you have European clients who are expanding into China with their luxury retail?

Bernd Hofstoetter: We do both. We help our customers from Europe to serve and support in China, but we have a local business development team as well. Yes, China is, of course, totally different in terms of competition, in terms of market environment, that's clear, but it's a huge market. We have been there for a couple of years now, and we are quite happy. 

When you're going into competitive situations in China, do you even know the names of the companies you're competing with? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: After some years, yes. In the end, we can identify the relevant set of competitors in China. 

Are they mostly domestic companies? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, mostly domestic. 

So you would never bump into in North American or European companies? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: No. 

For the technology, are you seeing trends in terms of what's interesting to your customers? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We see the combination of the online and offline world, which is not only a trend; it's a real demand from our clients to prolong the online journey into the store. So that's something where we are investing. We have a special team for that, and we upsell our clients with this kind of Omnichannel solution. This is one part. Then, of course, technology is becoming more and more powerful. Because you better integrate it into the customer journey. 

I would say that's the two main drivers for technology coming from our clients. 

So when you're talking about omnichannel it's this whole idea of retail media networks?

Bernd Hofstoetter: No, it is not the retail media. That's another subject we are looking at now. 

But it's about the clienteling, it’s about e-commerce in the store, this kind of application. The retail media, Dave, we discussed in Munich as well, is something that has been in Europe for years, and there is now a new dynamic of the retail media and of course, with our stores deployed, we have quite good positioning here on that.

Would you envision third-party advertising going into places like a luxury retail store? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: No, I don't think so. I think there are sectors where retail media in the store will not be applicable because there are retailers who want to manage the exclusivity of branding in their stores.

I was working before in the advertising industry. I know about this world. I don't see that even in five years in a luxury store there is advertising for automobiles or whatever, don't see that. 

And most of what you do is luxury brands for beauty, for timepieces, bags, all kinds of stuff like that. Do you deal with automotive as well? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, we have a team specialist in automotive. We had one year ago, a huge tender for a global rollout for a global automobile company. In automobiles, we are moving very fast. That's another sector where we still see a lot of business to be done. Telecom, we are strong as well. Food retail, we are reshaping it. Of course, fashion is a bit down in Europe. We had some bankruptcies in fashion chains. So fashion in Europe is not in a super shape. But automotive, yes, it’s a sector where we have acquired a lot of experience in the last three to four years now.

You've mentioned, or we've talked a lot about luxury, but you also have QSR clients, correct? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, we have in Italy QSR, we have in Germany, QSR. We have in Spain a bit of QSR in France as well. 

Those are very different meetings, I suspect. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Very different. QSR, the subject very often comes with franchisors, and there's a lot of franchise business out there for QSR, which is again another world. Not in terms of finances, but in terms of technology, technology is not a subject. The menu boards are not a problem at all. It is; it's not a challenge. It's more the contracting and invoicing part where you have to, where you have to work with many franchises or single sites one by one, which is a bit different.

Is your company and your development team looking at AI and how it can be applied to what you do? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We look to that, of course. I think everybody is looking at that. We have our ideas how AI could improve efficiency for us. 

I'm curious about North America. You mentioned that you have a business partner over here. Is the plan one day to establish an office here as well? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We are thinking about it. When you see our geographic footprint being in Europe and Asia, you could say, “Hey, M-Cube, why are you not covering the North American market?” It's something that we have to think about, sure, but we want to do it right. That's very important because America, of course, is a market in itself, and we want to make it right if we make it with a known and operated structure. 

Does it present a barrier at all that you don't have an office there, or can you talk about your partner? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We do not have the feeling today that we do not get the global deals because we do not have our own office and team in America. So for us, It's not a downside. We see that if we move there, there might be a potential upside. 

It's a nice to have, but not a need to have. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Today, it's not the missing partin our business, but we see that the deals become more and more global and that it would really make sense of course to have a strong team in America.

I'm curious about marketing and getting your name out there. When you work with these incredible luxury brands, they tend to be very quiet and cautious, and I'm guessing that it's not often that they allow you to talk about your projects with them. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: That's totally right, Dave, unfortunately, but that's the price to pay. But to be clear, luxury is a very interesting and challenging world, and to be honest, we do not need to do our marketing for that because when people move from one brand to another, and they worked with us in Brand A and will work now in Brand B, it's the best advertising we can have.

Is there a store that you can talk about, that once people say what's your kind of showroom or the one that you send people to if you can? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: In Milano, we have several stores of several global luxury chains and retailers. When we do a store visit, we mainly do it in Montelliana in Milano, where you see the power of the M-Cube solutions life. 

So once you engage with a prospective client, then you can hopefully get them to Milan and show them around that way. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah.

You are based in Paris, correct? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: I'm based in Paris, yes. 

But you're back and forth all the time, I suspect.

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah, but I'm based in Paris today. 

It’s nice to have two cities like that to cycle between. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, very nice cities. Paris and Milano. 

Alright, Bernd, thank you very much for spending some time with me. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Thank you, Dave. Take care. 

Digital Signage Yearbook 2023

In this special episode, I chat with Balthasar Mayer and Antonia Hamberger of invidis Consulting, the Munich-based firm that has for many years produced an annual yearbook that takes a deep dive into the digital signage industry.

The new yearbook for 2023 is out, with versions in German and an international one in English that includes quite a bit of copy and input from Sixteen:Nine.

This podcast goes into the story behind the yearbook, its growth beyond first Germany and then Europe, and what readers will find in the 2023 version - which is some 200 pages of editorial (not advertorial) content, including regional market analyses.

The good news - it's a free download.

Shane Vega, Userful

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Using existing network infrastructure has long been talked up as an efficient way to manage and deliver digital signage solutions in large companies, but the concept has been clouded by concerns - like the cost of additional AV hardware and the impact of all that video on the company network.

But we now live in a world where companies support countless video conferencing sessions with piles of users, with little or no latency. Other technologies have also caught up, and computing just keeps getting more powerful.

Which is why I was interested in chatting with Shane Vega, VP of Marketing for the Silicon Valley software firm Userful, about his company's AV over IP solutions. The company has its roots in Calgary, Alberta and still does a lot of the R&D work there.

Userful first showed up in digital signage circles talking about a different way, using software and endpoints, to drive video walls. But in the last few years it has been much more focused on a broader IP-driven solution that tends to start with control rooms and operations centers, but can also drive things like meeting room displays and digital signage around corporate campuses.

There's been a lot of discussion about AV needs converging with IT interests, but from Vega's perspective, that convergence is already firmly in place.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Shane, thank you for joining me. Where are you today? 

Shane Vega: I am in sunny Tampa, Florida, where although it's not all that sunny today, we've got some rain, but that's per the norm now. 

Now, Userful is in Silicon Valley, but a lot of the developers are in Calgary, right?

Shane Vega: Yeah, that's correct. All of our R&D, engineering team, and the like, they're all up in Calgary, Canada.

So you're missing the Calgary Stampede this week? 

Shane Vega: I am missing the Stampede. 

But you know what, I believe they deserve a bit of some good time because they spend the majority of the time avoiding the minus 30-degree weather. 

Yeah, I spent a number of years in Calgary, and it's an interesting weather city.

Shane Vega: Yeah. You know it's bad when they've developed an entire infrastructure of walkways between buildings to avoid having to go outside. 

Yeah, just like Minneapolis. 

Shane Vega: Exactly. 

All right, so we had a quick chat in the LG booth at Infocomm, and you explained what Userful was up to with its Infinity platform and AV over IP and AV as a Service and so on, and I've seen that. I will wholeheartedly admit I don't totally get it, but how you explained it to me was very interesting, and I thought this would be useful for a lot of people to understand the infrastructure and distribution side of digital signage. 

We spend so much time talking about the content and business strategy and all those sorts of things, but behind-the-scenes stuff is awfully important, and maybe we could start out by just explaining what Userful is and does and where you came from because when Userful first came out, it was presented to me as video wall software, and I had a hell of a time wrapping my brain around what it was all about. But I know you guys have evolved quite a bit. 

Shane Vega: Yeah. I appreciate that, Dave. To answer your question, Userful has grown exponentially in the last 5+ years. John Marshall, our CEO came on board about 7 years or so ago. My timing might be a little bit off, and when he came into the organization, we were a perpetual software company, so we weren't software as a service, we weren't selling subscriptions. We were selling perpetual software…

You'd buy a license and then get that supported? 

Shane Vega: Yeah, you'd buy a license then we support it for the duration of however long you wanted to use it, and the license for the software was pretty siloed, right? It was, “Hey, you can buy this operations center license.” Where, to your point, we were just managing content on a video wall. 

And it was mostly control rooms, right? 

Shane Vega: Mostly control rooms, almost exclusively for a time, and then we evolved into the digital signage world, and it was cloud-based digital signage exclusively. So what most folks are familiar with is hosting up in AWS, giving you some access to dynamic tools for creating templates and the like. 

During Infocom, what we've launched and from the time that I just mentioned until about, maybe two and a half years ago or three years ago, we've pivoted the company from perpetual to subscription-based software as a service, and that's who Userful is. We are a software company, and we've been a software company tailored to the needs of the AV industry. 

Most currently, we've just released our newest platform, and that's really been the biggest evolution, which is moving away from application-specific deployments into more of a platform approach for AV over IP and that is really the biggest breakthrough development that we've had here, because in the older version of our software, we were a monolithic code base. Again, we were just selling either the operation center software or we were selling some digital signage. Everything was monolithic. It was difficult for our engineering team to manage updates, firmware, bug fixes, and the like.

We've now moved to a distributed code base that has given us exceptional flexibility with how we develop our software for the various use cases and applications in the AV industry. So if you think about what you've seen in the conversations you and I have had, essentially, and you hit the nail right on the head, this isn't just about fancy software managing content on a video wall. Can we do that? Of course, we've got feature sets for various different use cases, but there's also the infrastructure piece, and this was my “aha moment” through a different lens at Infocomm. 

AV over IP has matured through the years from IP addressable matrix switchers where everything was still very much centralized into IP addressable nodes, encoders, decoders, transmitters, receivers, and all the different AV manufacturers out there have now standardized on this proprietary hardware version of AV over IP, and I started to ask myself the question: what is their value proposition in doing that?

And I overheard quite a few folks during this past Infocomm talk about the value of this distributed architecture: enabling flexibility, scalability, augmenting workflows, the total cost of ownership being lower, and I sat there a little bit baffled because these are all the same things that we talk about at Userful and so it really opened up an area where I feel like we do need to evangelize a little bit more about how Userful do AV over IP differently, and that we don't necessitate all of the hardware infrastructure. We truly are a software platform, but because of the IT protocols that currently exist, that's how we developed our software.

So when you think about Userful, I've actually positioned us a little bit more as an IT solution than an AV solution, even though our entire solution is built around the AV industry and its needs. The reason I say that is because we're literally a server, non-proprietary, and an endpoint, and that endpoint is software, so our uClient application.

In between the two is network infrastructure. There are no end encoders, decoders, transmitters, receivers, and the list goes on. Because we are able to transmit content and aggregate content, meaning we can pull in sources of visual information and audio information into a data library or data store that we manage on our server and distribute that information to any destination or any screen and we do that all with IP protocols. 

The same IP protocols, by the way, and this is how I usually get people to have the “aha moment.” If we were having this over a Teams meeting, Dave, or a Zoom meeting, we would be transmitting video two ways. In many cases, multiple participants from multiple regions of the world share two-way audio and video. We would be able to share content from our local computers into that meeting, and nobody would have to go out and buy a proprietary encoder and decoder to make that happen. So using that same infrastructure or those IT protocols that are currently at work, IP protocols like WebRTC for instance, we're able to build a solution that leverages those same advancements for the purposes of AV over IP.

It’s a bit of a mouthful, but that's what we're doing. 

So you wouldn't have been able to do some of that 10-15 years ago because the network infrastructure is a lot of larger corporations hadn't really caught up with that, so you would flood a network if you were using a lot of video and so on, but things have changed. 

Shane Vega: Things have changed substantially, and I would even say it's been not even 10-15 years ago, just 5-10 years ago, and the reason I say that is because there are the laws of engineering and physics like Butter's Law, Kryder’s Law, Moore's Law, which talks about how rapidly the advancements of, let's say, fiber optic networks, which are doubling every nine months, the amount of bandwidth that you can get between the fiber optic cable or the amount of processing speed that you can get out of a CPU and how fast these advancements are happening. 

What we're doing and the way that we're doing it is taxing the CPU of that server. It's also taxing the GPU of that server, the graphics card because those are the two major components that we use for our solution. If you think about just two years ago, Dave, our servers that we were deploying in the field were 8 cores of processors. Right now, I have a server that we've certified that's 192 cores of processors, so we're able to do exceptionally and exceedingly more on a single server, which is why we've actually built our solution to be a data center solution by and large, where you take a big beefy server, you put it in your data center, and you're virtualizing all of the traditional hardware that you would need, and you're managing a wide range of AV endpoints, whether it's digital signage, meeting rooms, operations centers, or what have you. 

Is there a baseline for what you need in terms of the network infrastructure? 

I'm definitely not an IT Architect, but do you need a CAT6E, or can you do this over Wifi, I don't know, and I suspect a lot of people don’t know. 

Shane Vega: Yeah, so it's a good question. So again, because we're optimizing for IT protocols, we're able to do a lot, right? From the screen to the switch, we're just really looking for that one-gigabit uplink, which is standard. Most folks are going to have that. From the server to the source to the server and all that infrastructure pulling into the server, we're looking for the 10 gigabit uplink. 

So there are some requirements for the network, but nothing that is outside the realms of standard network topology. The real intricacies or the real areas where we get into some deeper discussions are when they have multiple networks that we have to traverse. When you start getting into DOD environments where things have to be air-gapped and there's no internet connectivity and when networks start to get a little bit more complex, that's where we have to begin to get a little bit more intentional about how we design it.

Now that said, we haven't yet met a deployment that we couldn't meet the network requirements for, even though some of those were those complex ones.

There were two things that particularly interested me. 

The first was, as you laid out earlier, that you don't need all these encoders and other bits of hardware to layer into a network to make this happen. So you're cutting out conceivably a lot of capital costs and a lot of potential fail points, and I guess the other thing that intrigues me, and you can talk about that next is or after. 

The first question would be the idea that you can use this for multiple aspects. I suspect there are control room data dashboards, and software platforms out there, but one of the things you talked about at Infocomm is that you can cascade this out to do all kinds of different things from operation centers to experience centers off of the same platform. 

Shane Vega: Yeah, exactly, Dave, and to answer the first question, you hit the nail on the head with one of my areas of confusion when I was at Infocomm, and I heard people talking about the low total cost of ownership, and they were tying it to these encoders and decoders. 

We don't require those things. So when I think about the total cost of ownership, I think about the hard work upfront costs that you don't need to have and the additional BTU output from all of that hardware that you would normally need, that's no longer going to be there, which is going to drive your HVAC costs, right? You don't have all the power consumption. So for green initiatives and companies who are looking to do things, and this is a big one moving forward, folks want to be more green, and get green initiatives going like lower carbon emissions, lowering power consumption by not having all that hardware is yet another total cost of ownership benefit for Userful. 

Again, our encoding happens at the one server that we require in that Nvidia graphics card. The decoding is done by a piece of software we developed called the uClient application. Now, where that uClient application resides, we give you tons amount of flexibility. We have integrated it into certain endpoints like Web OS or Tizen or Android. And that gives us the flexibility to be able to load that client application in various different environments and use cases, depending on the display type if it's an LCD, if it's a direct view LED, and how we manage that. 

In some cases, we do have a small appliance that you might need at the edge, and that would be one additional piece of hardware per display, depending on the display type, and that's an Android box that we load our uClient application onto if the display doesn't have the ability to integrate with our software. 

So if it's a smart display that already has a system on a chip on it, conceivably you don't need that Android box? 

Shane Vega: Correct. So now what you're left with, as I said, is just a server with software at the edge, and network infrastructure in between.

So ongoing maintenance costs are substantially lower. Initial hardware costs are lower. Your total cost of ownership around all the things I mentioned earlier is going to be lower. Therefore, your refresh costs are going to be lower. Because with hardware, every three to five years, in some cases five to seven years, you're having to do a hardware refresh. It's always tied to CapEx because it's usually proprietary. They have to budget for CapEx renewals of all this hardware. 

Because of Userful's deployment model, we can take on an OPEX model for those folks who would benefit from that because your hardware refresh can be built into your standard IT refreshes because you own the hardware. In many cases, as many as we can possibly, push for, we don't provide the server, we want the end user to provide the server, and that way, it gets built into your traditional OPEX refresh, and that way, the only recurring cost is the software. 

To your next question about what we spoke about and the benefits of the platform. This is where our software really begins to shine, right? Because our platform is accessible through a web browser, so no proprietary software needs to be downloaded for a user to access it. You access our software through a traditional HTML5 web browser. 

Once you access the software through a web browser, the first thing you're going to notice is we have six applications that any user can take advantage of. In most cases, folks aren't trying to eat the elephant hole, right? They'll have a use case like digital signage, or they'll have a use case like meeting rooms or experiential centers or what have you, and that's one of the reasons why we are licensing the server. We're licensing the CPU cores and the number of graphics cards that you need on that server so that if you have a smaller use case, your out-of-pocket costs are gonna be lower because you need a smaller server. But when you log in for the first time, you're gonna see, “Oh, I got this for digital signage, but I didn't know I could run my meeting room here.” or, “I didn't realize that I can do these artistic video walls,” or “I didn't realize I can incorporate these data dashboards from Power BI or Tableau as a native source and share those to any display that Userful is managing.” 

The value is seen almost immediately, and so what we do is try to help people understand the peripheral or parallel use cases. So I use digital signage quite a bit, and I gave you this analogy regarding airports at Infocomm, Dave, where at least half a dozen times in the last six to eight months, I've had conversations with various airports, and most of them are pulling us in because they have an operation center. Airport operations center, or security operations center, or what have you, and they'll say, “Hey, we want the Userful software to run the content on these displays and video walls in the operation center,” and when we have these discovery calls, I'll typically ask, “Hey, have you guys thought about the advantages of using our platform to help you with the signage?” And I'm usually shot down rather immediately, and most folks know Airports are convoluted in the way that they deploy their technology. They got various different groups. They're typically siloed, but specifically the airport operations centers, I'll just say, “Hey, look, I get that, but let me just throw this use case out there and see if it lands and hits you as showing value.”

You're in an airport operations center. Wouldn't you want to be able to manage the entire network of screens that are currently being used to show baggage, arrivals, departures, signage, and all your wayfinding screens? Would it not be valuable to be able to manage those as part of your airport operations, also, I've noticed in many cases, they'll incorporate security into their AOC. Some of them have independent security operations centers, but in either event, I would tell them. What happens if you have an incident at the airport? Wouldn't you want to be able to take over those screens from the command center that's responsible for monitoring and sending strategic messages to people, depending on what the situation is? If there's a fire, “evacuate.” If god forbids, there's an active shooter, “take shelter in place,” and be able to send strategic messages to various screens all from within your operation center? Well, you can't currently do that because you've got multiple systems driving all of these different AV endpoints. 

If you had a single platform, it doesn't just give you the ability to scale your deployment, it gives you the ability to scale your workflow and become more flexible to augment those workflows where I can send strategic messages to screens, I can manage arrivals and baggage from my AOC, if that's such a thing that I need. In addition, we could help you with your meeting rooms. You can walk into a meeting room, and I can help you cast some content in a meeting room and have an impromptu meeting on a drop of a dime, as just a few use cases of what our platform can do.

Sometimes, when you have these platforms that say they can do, in your case, at least six different things, there can be compromises. In other words, “Yeah, we can do all these things. That's just none of them are particularly deep, or maybe one of them is deep, and the other ones are so so.” 

Do you get that question at all?

Shane Vega: Ironically, no. We don't get that question. But it's a question most people should be asking David, and I'll tell you that when that does come up, and it's only come up a handful of times, I'm always very candid about what we can't do as well as what we can do. And there is truth in the fact that we are software as a service, and so there are certain applications that still have roadmap features, candidly, that we're going to continue to augment and build them out. 

If you could probably imagine the top three or four of our use cases would be: operations centers, digital signage, meeting rooms, and data dashboards. We do those very well. With experiential environments, we manage those artistic video walls very well. Now when you talk about experiential environments, there are some things that some folks might want to get involved with, but we might have to have some deeper conversations, right? 

And that really is around interactivity. Do you want multi-touch video walls, like in a museum for kids or something like that? Where we have some roadmap items to help ensure that multi-touch is what people would expect, where you don't want to have the lag, you don't want to have any of those issues when people are trying to have that fun experience as a child or what have you.

So there are certain features that are still roadmap items, but what I will bookend that with is, before coming over to Userful, I worked with one of the larger AV firms globally, and while I worked there, part of my interaction with customers was, “Man, I wish I could do more of these things with a single solution, I have to farm it out to so many folks.” 

But more than that, I would have feature requests for the stuff that was out there, and it was always in one ear, out the other. I don't care which manufacturer it was. If I went to some of these larger manufacturers and I said, hey, you really would benefit if you did this or this. It just didn't go anywhere, and then I had a similar conversation with the Userful back in about 2018 at a trade show, I said, look, your software is good, but it really needs these four or five things to really be a competitor in the space that you're looking to deploy, which at the time it was operation centers. 

I'd say if it was six months, it was a long time. So within six months, I got a call from the then VP of Sales who said, “Hey, I want to have a meeting with you, Shane. We've incorporated all of your requests into our software,” and that really pivoted my approach to looking at users as, alright, these guys are the future of AV and, little FYI, we actually got that award at Infocomm, the Future of AV award. 

But the reason for that was, look, if we're going to be software as a service, then we have to prioritize feature requests from our customers above our own market research or our own gut check, and so that's part of my role here at Userful as VP of Marketing is that I'm also over Product Marketing, which is over the roadmap, and so I get involved in customer calls quite a bit, and I'll hear some of these features that to your initial question is, “Hey, how do you go deeper with these applications?” I look for that feedback, and then I get to go back to the roadmap and go, “Hey, we need to prioritize this, this, and this feature. Push out the other features to the next release. Let's get these done because it's revenue dependent. We've got customers who would value this. Let’s get it done!”

We take that very seriously here at Userful, and we're at four releases a year, so you'll never have to wait all that long. 

So you referenced Airports. I'm curious, in the context of third-party software development, if there's a software company that works in the Airport realm but isn't doing digital signage or some of the things you do, but they want to visualize information on displays, is there an API or something that they could develop to work with Userful or does it have to be Userful development to add that capability on?  

Shane Vega: We have an entire program around API. So we do have our own API, currently, it's A REST API, so we can receive tons of different messages and calls to trigger certain reactions within our software.

But additionally, that's got its own roadmap in and of itself. So we have our software application roadmap, and then we have our API roadmap where we're going to be developing even deeper integrations and capabilities including, but not limited to, even wanting to create possible easy configuration tools for customers who can use our API to do whatever they want, onsite.

Are control rooms and operations centers the gateway for the initial point of contact, the thing that gets people interested, and then other things cascade out of that?

Shane Vega: That has been our experience. We call that our land. So we're land and expand through our platform. Let's find the use case. Let's land where it makes sense, and then let's show the power of our expansion, and just because of how the company has evolved, operation centers have been kind of the tip of our spear, and it makes sense because operation centers will use two or three of our applications out of the gate, right?

They'll use the operation center software, they'll use meeting rooms for war rooms or situation rooms. They'll also use our trends for dashboards and Power BI integrations, depending on what type of operation center it is, so they usually get value from several of our use cases and applications out of the gate. And if it's a large enough organization and we're typically targeting LDOs (large distributed organizations), they'll have multiple operations centers, which gives us multiple points of connection and interaction and engagement to open up opportunities to talk about the meeting rooms beyond your war room and situation room, or some operation centers are fishbowls, where they want to bring folks in their data center and they just want to use it as a showpiece to show their customers how well they manage their data, and so they might have welcome screens outside, and we'll let them know, “Hey, we can manage those welcome screens for you as well,” and that evolves into a larger digital signage strategy, corporate communications, so on and so forth.

These large organizations, do they have separate AV and IT departments, or are they pretty much hiving into IT now? 

Shane Vega: So more and more, IT is taking over, but what's happening is it used to be that they have AV specialists on staff, and by and large, it was for the meeting rooms, and in some cases, the digital signage where they had AV technicians or AV specialists on-site, and those were the guys were the gatekeepers to decide what technology gets deployed.

Yeah, and get everything working before the meeting starts somehow. 

Shane Vega: Exactly. “Who's got HDMI? Who's got DVI?”

So to that point, people keep talking about the convergence of AV and IT, and I don't know why. That convergence happened years ago. People are now starting to realize that because of that convergence, the IT organization or the IT departments within these larger organizations are going to be the ones holding the budget and are going to be the ones responsible for managing any AV resources on the network.

And so, we have intentionally built our product to cater to those IT stakeholders in the organization. When you say things like, “Hey, you can centrally monitor the entire platform from a web browser,” they really get that right. When you say, “We're an IT solution, we're not an AV solution, which means we're not going to put all this IP addressable hardware on your network,” a lot of the walls come down from their security concerns. You then begin to tell them that, look, you can augment your roles-based access control, and integrate with LDAP. Plus, we give you tools that are IT specific to help you monitor things like, what is the impact on my network? What is my current CPU utilization, or what's my current GPU utilization on the server that we're licensing? We give them all of those tools built into our software. So it's not just AV end-user tools that we're giving. We're also giving those IT tools that help the IT stakeholders manage deployments because we recognize these are going to be larger in scale. They're going to be responsible for a lot. Let's make it easy for them. 

When you talk about AV as a service, it's a term I've heard for a while, but you guys go at it quite a bit differently from what you're saying. 

Shane Vega: Yeah, we do, and Dave, I struggle with that, because we were flirting with the term AV as a service, and we started to use it quite a bit. But I know, coming from the integration world, that AV as a service historically meant we're going to just finance this stuff, right? We're going to get a leasing program, and we're going to build in the hardware, the software, the services, whatever we can into a monthly payment that makes it nice and easy for you guys.

We approach it differently by saying, we are software as a service that's for the AV industry. Therefore, we are AV as a service, meaning, we don't have all that hardware that you have to purchase. You're truly able to deploy all of these AV use cases and manage an entire host of AV applications from within our platform. And we are a software that you pay for based on subscription, typically three-year plans. 

That's what we mean when we say AV as a service. It's exactly that. It's a software as a service, which is which is the actual term, which is software as a service for the AV world. 

This strikes me as something that probably has a learning curve, as every software platform does, but it is almost something you kind of have to ease your way into?

Shane Vega: Believe it or not, not really, and I think that would be more pertinent if somebody was wanting to say, “Hey, I want to use your entire platform right now.” But as I said earlier, most folks are saying, “Hey, I want this operation center,” and they're familiar with Operation Center softwares. They know what they want. They know they want to be able to build custom layouts. They want to manage big, beautiful video walls. They want to be able to interact with sources with soft KVM functionalities so that they're not just visualizing the sources but they can engage with them because they've got tools, right? They got video management tools, and they've got access control, what have you, and so that software that we're providing isn't going to look and feel a whole lot different than a lot of the other softwares they're used to using. 

Now, we do it differently. So the real benefit, rewinding all over to the beginning of this conversation, is, yes, we're giving you all these software applications and features, but it's the infrastructure that really differentiates us. 

Along with removing different hardware components from this kind of a network, you're also removing potentially different software applications that you'd also need because you've got this stack of different things you can do? 

Shane Vega: Yeah, exactly.

To that point, Dave, when I showed this at Infocomm, when I gave my demos there, typically when you deploy an AV solution, let's call it digital signage, that's the background that you're most familiar with. 

In digital signage, let's say, you use it for corporate communications; you'll have screens all over the office. In some cases, they'll want to be able to integrate that digital signage into their meeting rooms as well, and when the screens are in standby mode, they want to be able to have some of those corporate communications as part of the digital signage strategy, managing those meeting rooms. But when you go into the meeting room, they'll typically need some type of infrastructure to support those meetings and local collaboration. Usually, it's a network of AV infrastructure, HDMI cables, or what have you, go into some form of a matrix switch that's going to be some type of tablet controller that can give you the ability to manage what laptop is being viewed on what screen. 

With Userful, because the software does so much, the screens that we manage are not tied to any one specific application, and that's really the beauty of it. So I can walk into a room where they're showing corporate communication. I can sit down, open my laptop, and immediately start a meeting by screencasting whatever's on my laptop onto the screen in that room without connecting a single AV cable. I could then open up my operations center software on that same screen and turn it into an impromptu war room or situation room where I'm pulling in multiple sources and building out customized layouts, and navigating through a crisis. So there are a lot of things that we can do, and it's not dependent on the screen, and, to your point, we've reduced not just the hardware need but the software as well. 

All right, Shane, that was super interesting. I know much more about this space than I did half an hour ago.

Shane Vega: It's been great talking to you, Dave. I appreciate it.