Sixteen:Nine - All Digital Signage, Some Snark

David Thomas, BudSense

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

When cannabis started being legalized in US states like Colorado, and more recently across Canada, it struck me that it was a very interesting new vertical for digital signage companies to chase - because it was a greenfields industry that had retail environments offering up products wholly unfamiliar to a lot of the people walking in the door.

It's grown pretty clear, though, that while there may indeed be big long-term opportunity, cannabis retailing is also a very complicated industry - with rules and regulations changing by jurisdiction, a whole bunch of vendors and SKUs, and widely variable supply chains.

While there might be a common perception that getting the OK to sell cannabis is a license to print money, a lot of operators are struggling financially, and both retailers and the tech ecosystem underpinning cannabis are coming in and dropping out all the time.

A Canadian company called BudSense has a particularly interesting story to tell. The company, based in Regina, Saskatchewan, started out as a retailer, but found its way into technology to fill the gaps in what they needed to effectively manage stores and communicate to customers.

Now, software is the main business, and BudSense has a SaaS software product that is all about managing menus and other screens around dispensaries, and is very specifically tuned to cannabis retailing - as opposed to general digital signage software that could also drive cannabis store menus.

Canada has been the main focus to date, but co-founder David Thomas says BudSense has business in the US, and plans to grow that.

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TRANSCRIPT

David, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me a little bit about BudSense?

David Thomas: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Dave. BudSense is a menu merchandising company in the cannabis industry. It solves the problem for our retailers of menu management.

And are you focused just on menus or are you doing in-store promotion, all kinds of other things within these dispensaries? 

David Thomas: Yeah, we do some in-store promotion tool sets as well, pretty much anything that involves merchandising is the solution that we want to solve. 

Your company's in Saskatchewan, right?

David Thomas: Yes, we're based out of Regina, Saskatchewan, where we got our start in dispensary operation. 

So when you say dispensary operations, you mean you're actually running a dispensary? 

David Thomas: We were, and we still are. I partnered with my brother, John, around legalization in Canada. We started by running four stores in Saskatchewan. We've since sold those stores and moved on to other retail footprints but that's when we started developing the software that is now BudSense. 

What set you down that path? Because being a retailer is very different from being a software company?

David Thomas: Absolutely. So I have a background in engineering. My brother has a background in pharmacy. We actually started our business partnership before cannabis in real estate and we have an entrepreneurial spirit. We were always looking for opportunities and when cannabis was announced for legalization, we saw it as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and we wanted to participate so that was the catalyst that pushed us into the cannabis space. We went into retail because of our real estate and pharmacy background.

I have a lot of experience running teams and building systems. So we just put our skill set to use in a brand new industry. 

So did you write your own software to run your store and that's what got you down the path or was it the absence of good software to do what you needed? 

David Thomas: It was both. We solved whatever problem was directly in front of us. So it wasn't like we wanted to solve digital menus. It was more of a necessity and then we had the skillset to do it in that way. So when we started, we had four stores to run and that's very atypical from a normal business where you start with one and then progress if you're successful.

So from day one, I knew that we needed a system to manage merchandising from a central location. So we could know what was happening in the stores and there were some solutions on the market but they were pretty flimsy at that point and we just felt more comfortable building our own.

So, that's where we started down the path of digital menus.

At what point did you decide that you'd rather be a tech company than a retailer? 

I think the perception when cannabis was legalized in Canada was if you managed to get permits, particularly in those provinces where they allowed for private operators, it was a license to print money.

David Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. The markets are very interesting with cannabis. I've watched them develop in our region, in the U.S., and other places and that's certainly the perception from the outside looking in and that happens a lot in an early market, whereas some of the permits are protected and ours were in the early days.

We actually sold what turned out to be the peak of the market which was an excellent catalyst for our next chapters. So now a lot of the markets in Canada are oversaturated. I've heard numbers thrown around something like 70% of dispensaries in Canada are unprofitable and that has to do with market saturation, but it also has to do with operations being a little bit bloated and not really having the efficiency needed. 

BudSense is focused on driving some extra revenue but also tries to make sure your costs are under control and you're running an efficient operation.

I've also heard a number of times that the big challenge of a lot of the people who get into launching dispensaries is they know they're cannabis, but they don't really know retailing. 

David Thomas: You've hit on something really interesting because even if they do know retail, which is very rare, cannabis is different. So you have this situation where no one has the perfect skillset so it's going to take innovation and learning regardless of what your background is because it's new and it has new problems. 

So what happens is, regardless of your background, you go into it, you start trying things and if you're not mindful then your first go at it isn't going to be perfect. You're going to need to change your strategy. That's where people get into trouble with switching costs, with building systems that aren't necessarily malleable enough to change. So there's a ton of different backgrounds. Some people are more experienced with the product. Some people are more experienced with retail. Some people are more experienced with purchasing. It's really interesting because you essentially have to lean on your strengths while understanding your weaknesses and kind of build the business that way. There are a lot of different paths to success in cannabis and we see that with our different customers of BudSense where there's not one way to do this but it is challenging regardless of what your background is. 

One of the big challenges that I've perceived is how things are licensed and regulated changes by jurisdiction. So for instance, In Saskatchewan, where your company is based, it sounds like it's privatized. Where I live in Nova Scotia, it's run by the Provincial Liquor Corporation. So it's very much regulated and I can go in and buy a bottle of wine around the corner and buy whatever you buy there, I don't terribly know but it's all incorporated and much more heavily regulated perhaps than in a private situation and I guess it's the same in the states where it can change state by state. 

David Thomas: Yeah, you've hit on another one where it's interesting because your operation depends on the municipality (based on zoning) and the region you're in because one of the most important parts of it is your location and how protected it is from other competition, and then your purchasing is different based on your region. But one thing that we excelled at is it's very simple. We read the rules, and we read the regulations, and we understood them. And a lot of other times people would go in based on what they're doing in the U.S. or what they're doing in another market. 

The problem with that, like a concrete example, was when we opened our stores in Saskatchewan, we didn't have a security guard at the front door because the regulations didn't say you had to, we were treating our customers as customers and a lot of people looked at what the U.S. was doing and they saw these security guards at the front door and they didn't necessarily understand the purpose of the security. The security guards were there because it's not legal federally. So it's purely a cash business and the insurance is extremely expensive. So when you have a cash business, your store is filled with cash, and it's a target for crime. So for those reasons and the illegality of it at a federal level, that's why the security guard is there. But when you read the regulations, there's no reason for one.

So it's little things like that where if you're not focused on the details of the regulations and respect the regulations, it's really hard to create a dynamic business without understanding them. 

So if I'm a cannabis dispensary and I've just opened up, or I'm about to open up, and I determine I need digital menu displays and I would like some promotional displays as well, could I just use any old digital signage CMS software to run the store or would I be just buying into a whole bunch of work that I don't need to? 

David Thomas: It depends how large your organization is and it depends how highly you value your menus. If it goes back to our conversation earlier, what is your skill set what do you value and how are you going to create value in your business?

If you're willing to enter all of your product information daily and keep it up to date on your menu, which some people do, there is a viable reason to do that if you want expanded information that says something BudSense doesn't offer. If you want a clean, tight operation, that runs your menus a little bit more efficiently and automated, that's where BudSense really starts to shine. BudSense manages scale really well. So you may be able to have an owner-operated store that uses a chalkboard that understands every product that's coming in, but when you get 5-30 stores under a banner that falls apart really fast. It again depends, but like we offer some powerful menu solutions that go beyond that kind of out-of-the-box, digital signage stuff that you're referring to.

And from what I understand, there's a whole sort of technology ecosystem focused around the cannabis dispensary business, including point of sale systems, information systems, inventory management systems, all that stuff that maybe you would never find in an apparel store or hardware store or something like that, but it's tuned to cannabis. Is that accurate? 

David Thomas: It's very accurate and I'm fascinated by it because I think it's partly to do with our time in modern technology, where if hardware stores were legalized today or if hardware stores were invented today, I believe they would have a stronger tech ecosystem. I believe that we're using tech in cannabis more so than in other verticals at the start of their run because it's available to us and it's helpful.

That said, the nature of cannabis and the instability of the supply chain leads really well to these niche products. You mentioned point of sale, and for example, there's a seed-to-sale regulation needed where you're monitoring individual products from the time that they're grown to packaged, delivered to the store, accepted at the store, to sell to the customer, meaning seed to sale and that regulation is over and above most just out of the box point of sale systems, so that's why. 

And that, again is down to the region. So these point-of-sale companies have to change their technology to support region-by-region regulations based on that seat to sell tracking and other things.

Wow. So it gets very complicated. 

David Thomas: It does. It is certainly a unique set of challenges, and it's a really early stage too. So a lot of these challenges and underdeveloped technology fall on the lap of operators, and it's challenging. 

As a tech provider in this ecosystem, is it challenging to get to scale because you've got all of these operators and as you said, 70 percent of them maybe aren't profitable, so they come in, they come out, they're cash constrained, and everything else? 

David Thomas: It is challenging.. That being said, this is my first software-as-a-service company that I've built so I'd imagine that it's always challenging, but I do think it's particularly challenging in cannabis. 

That said, I think it requires the right approach for this industry, and it's back to what I was saying, where just understanding the rules and, as you said, understanding the conditions that these operators are trying to run their business in is really important. For those reasons, we spend all of our capital on the product. A lot of our competitors spend more on sales than we do. And the reason why we spend on products is because exactly what you're saying, there's a lot of problems to solve and if people are going to go to business, I don't really value early market share that much.

That being said, it lowers the revenue that we can create out of the bat, but I feel like focusing on the product and focusing on trying to help our customers create success, drive revenue, and clean up their costs. I feel like that's a winning formula long term. It's just a little bit rocky at the start.

And where are we in that sort of evolution of the industry? Did legalization happen 10-plus years ago in Colorado?

David Thomas: Yeah, 10 years ago, Colorado. Five years ago, Canada. The Colorado legalization, like the legacy in the US, is interesting because they've been in an eye on an island.

So, tools such as BudSense haven't really hit them. They made do with what they had, and it created interesting market conditions. It's all in the US, also I don't think they've seen the growth and consumption expected and that's because without federal legalization they really won't see that three decade increase of consumption that we're expecting and when you go nationally legalized like Canada would see. But yeah, where are we from a tech standpoint overall? I think we're really early. I don't think it's been proven that a point-of-sale system can have international dominance.

It still seems to be region by region. I don't really think many people have realized how taxing regulation is on technology. For that reason, BudSense is what I call decoupled from the transaction, and this is counter to most traditional tech thinking where you want to get as close to the transaction as possible because that's where the money is but in cannabis, that's also where the regulation is.

So, by decoupling from that, we can spray it a little thinner and build solutions that are easier to scale across the entire industry. So industry as a whole, I think we have a long way to go. BudSense is making pretty significant strides in building powerful tools that take some of these retailers out of the dark ages, of the challenging period of cannabis retail.

And some of the surf riders have come in and out of the space as well or you contacted me because one of them was basically backing out of the digital signage. 

David Thomas: Yeah, I've seen a lot of significant decisions of pulling out, coming back in, investing, divesting. It's tough for me to speculate, but yes, our main competitor in the US has dropped out of digital signage in the cannabis industry. 

And you're speculating again, but I'm curious: why would they do that? It strikes me as if you get into something with them, then you've got recurring revenue.

David Thomas: Yeah, my best assumption is, first of all, Enlightened was purchased by a company called Weedmaps, which I believe is the largest Cannabis company in the world. So they had a larger parent company, and when a larger parent company is involved, and you're dealing with a subsection of that company, who knows what could have possibly happened?

But what I see time and time again is even a dominant player like Weedmaps, likely doesn't understand the whole scope of the cannabis industry. They get their part really well, but they don't necessarily understand the retail part or the cultivation part and the individual challenges that come with it. So when they think of digital signage, they're probably thinking of it as simpler than what BudSense has, and when you bring a simple solution to a really complicated environment, it's really tough to maintain and scale. So there's a chance that they're making the right decision for them, whereas that recurring revenue that they might have on their balance sheet, maybe it's not sustainable. And again, I don't know, but those are some assumptions that I could make to the decision. 

Of those retail stores, dispensaries, whatever you want to call them in Canada and the US, are most using digital screens in some way or are some of them still analog? 

David Thomas: It goes in trends. Canada has a higher digital percentage than the US. A lot of stores don't use menus at all because they just completely simplify the problem and use their Budtenders to communicate directly with the consumer. 

But that gets challenging in terms of volume and staffing, right?

David Thomas: So many things, because then now you have personal bias too and your consumer, they don't necessarily want to get all their information from the Budtender. Some people love it. Some people don't like it. 

I think one of the missing pieces in that ideology is that the menu isn't just for the consumer. It's also for the Budtender so that they can use the menu to discuss purchasing options together. With cannabis, there's a lot of information to process, and I think that some operators, they're around it all day, every day, and they lose sight of what it's like for a consumer to come into the store and just absorb and consume all of this information.

And what menus really do is help structure those conversations, regardless of how you see the customer journey happening, I think you're missing out if you don't have a well-thought-out merchandising plan. That said, if you're dealing with something that's inefficient and doesn't really work that well and it requires more headache than it's worth, there's a great argument to not do it at all. 

If you're not able to do it well, don't do it at all. That is a methodology that I subscribe to for other parts of the business. So why not menu management? 

Yeah, that's a long-running story in digital signage.

A lot of venue operators, whether they're retailers or QSR or whatever, invest in the technology. They invest in the original content load, and then it just becomes an orphaned bunch of screens that never get updated. 

David Thomas: Yeah, I see that all the time, and then it's just in the background, right?

We see that in our sales cycle too, where our potential customers are using another solution, it might just be collecting dust in the background but when they see our software, they're more like, oh, this exists. This is out there to help me manage my menus and make it a little bit more meaningful. So it's fascinating. There is a difference in ways that operators manage menus, whether you're talking about ‘No menus at all’ or poorly managed menus or something more along the lines of BudSense. 

Yeah. I was excited by the prospect of digital signage in cannabis retailing because you would have a whole wash of consumers who would be walking into these stores for the first time, completely unfamiliar with the product, and maybe a little bit uncomfortable because they don't get it. They don't know what they're buying. They don't want to be sold stuff that's overpriced or whatever. 

I saw digital signage as a way to help educate, drive awareness, and streamline operations. But I hear a variety of stories, including from you about how well that works. 

David Thomas: Yes, it's fascinating, right?

I think back to legalization and what consumers' expectations were of the store and what we had. They came into our store on day one, and we had 8 products for them to buy, like edibles weren't legal, we didn't have pre-rolls because they weren't legal and it was just in a lot of ways disappointing.

And when you look at it up close, it feels like a struggle. But when you resume the way out, I see a 30-year improvement cycle where we're getting better at this, and we're starting to pull consumption away from alcohol and towards cannabis, and I think that a lot of operators are a little bit too close to it where they don't see these new customers coming in because it might only be 2% of their customer base that is new, but that 2% over time is massive and it's exactly what you were saying where there's a feeling that our customers know how we do things, we know where to find the products that they want to buy and maybe they even already know what they want to buy before they come into the store. Yes, that's all true but there is this subsection of the consumer base that is intimidated the first time that they come into the store.

There are a lot of Canadians who still haven't been into a cannabis store, or maybe they went once, and they had a negative experience. So, exactly to your point is this customer journey. We really do have to try and make it as welcoming as possible. 

And I've seen everything from cannabis stores that look like Apple stores, they're sleek, they're beautiful and I've seen other ones that look like Korean variety stores in suburban Toronto or something, you just run down and shabby and everything. 

David Thomas: Yeah, it's interesting. That was the common thread of, “We want to be the Apple store of cannabis,” and I think we've softened that stance a little bit. A lot of those companies who had that concept in mind, they're quite frankly, they're bankrupt now or on their way out, and what happens is when you have a 30 percent margin packaged good product, you gotta be careful where you spend your money. 

So, I think it's about making our customers comfortable, and the other thing is how much space do you need? I think, as a rule, even our early stores were too big and they were still half the size of some of these other ones. If you make your store small enough, you can make it as nice or as rough around the edges as you were saying, as you want. But it's really about where you're spending that money and how you want to design your customer experience from there.

So tell me about the company, what's your installed base? 

David Thomas: So we have approximately 10% of the Canadian market right now. We started out focused, so we're in over 500 locations in the US and Canada. We're very focused on maximizing our current customers' use of the product; that's how we approach our development. And as we go, we build from word of mouth and inbound leads. As I said, we don't have a ton of sales efforts. 

One of our early successes was based on my retail experience, understanding from first-hand experience what a retailer needs and building a product to suit that. But eventually, that kind of ran out, and I'm still involved in the space from a retail perspective, but what we started to realize was there are different perspectives of this, and there are different ways of doing it, and we look at every new customer as an opportunity to see a new perspective of how menu management can work in this space, and we try to build our product around those different stories. So each of our retailers might not realize it, but they have a voice in the development roadmap of our product, and that's how we see growth because if we can save our customers’ time and then once we save them time, we can start maximizing margins, and once we maximize margins, we can start boosting their revenue. We can really take some of these companies who are struggling and make their business better, and that's what we're focused on rather than store count because we're in the infancy of the industry. So, I see it as almost a waste of resources to chase early market share. I would much rather build a strong product. 

Is it easier to work in Canada than the US because it is nationally legal? 

David Thomas: I guess it really depends on what your goal is. It's easier to do some things with cannabis in Canada. For instance, we built a database of 35,000 SKUs in Canada to help our retailers with data entry.

That's not possible in the US. There are no barcodes from state to state, just because of the federal legality of it. That said, if you're going to do a more simple solution, the US could be easier. The reason why we focus our development on Canada is because it's a little bit more robust in terms of a national regulation standard. So we can build out our product in a way that kind of wraps around a nationally legalized structure, and then what we do is we take parts of that, and we distribute it in the US. So our Canada market is like an R&D farm, and then we pull out parts of our product and wrap it around a particular use case in the US, but if we focus on the US, it's so fragmented that it's tougher to build that cohesive system. It's better to build the cohesive system and then only use 30% of it rather than build 30% of it and not know what that 70% is supposed to look like if that makes sense. 

The company is privately held? 

David Thomas:  Yes.

And how many people do you have? 

David Thomas:  We have 12 people right now.

And just dispersed, or do you actually have a bunch of people in Regina?

David Thomas:  We have a head office. It's a pretty cool program. It's called the Conexus Cultivator, and it's a tech incubator. So we have about half of our team there, and then the rest is distributed throughout Canada and remote work.

You're in Victoria, BC, which is a lot nicer this time of year than Regina. 

David Thomas: It is, yeah. I spent many winters in Regina. I do feel grateful to be here now in the winter. 

Yeah, I'm a Western Canada boy, so I had to get the hell out of that one. I don't like minus 30 Celsius. 

David Thomas: I feel like I've spent enough time in it. 

You've paid your dues. 

David Thomas: Yes. 

All right. This has been great. Very insightful. 

David Thomas: Thanks a lot, Dave. I appreciate you having me on.

Sebastian Kryh, Dise

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Dise is an acronym for Digital In Store Experience, and that nicely sums up what the Swedish software firm Dise is all about.

Around for 20 years now, the company is heavily focused on a retail-centric communications platform sold through solutions providers and other partners in its channel.

Now everybody and their sister identifies retail as a main target vertical solution for their platform, but most software options are designed to serve a wide variety of interests that might include everything from factories and airports to hospitals and schools. Dise says it's all about retail.

I had a good chat with CEO Sebastian Kryh about what makes his company's product offer distinct, and how Dise defines retail experience.

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TRANSCRIPT

Sebastian, thank you very much for joining me. Can you give me a rundown of your company? 

Sebastian Kryh: Sure thing. Thank you for having me, Dave. So Dise (Digital in-store experience) is a Swedish company that was founded back in 2003. So we've been at it for a while. For digital signage, we like to distinguish that by saying in-store experience or digital in-store experience, right?

Because it's so much more than just a digital poster it's sold purely through a network of selected partners with the goal of connecting the online and physical world to the physical space by improving the customer experience. With the mission to build a user experience to love with intuitive and easy software as a tool.

So would you describe Dise as a software company or more of a solutions company that has software? 

Sebastian Kryh: Interesting distinction there, I would describe it as a software company where we build on a product company. So, we build the platform or the suite, which has three parts, CMS being the shining star in the playout. We work with partners to create their experiences their offers, and opportunities to work with their brands and their customers. 

Okay. So, if you say you have a suite, what else is in the suite? 

Sebastian Kryh: There’s the CMS. It's a cloud-based and intuitive CMS. We have a design tool to build dynamic content and templates in general, used in the CMS and then we have the software that runs on the media players. Both external ones like Windows, Linux, and Brightside and SOCs like the big ones, Samsung and LG.

So when you're working with largely retail customers and you start an engagement with them. What does your company take on, and what's taken on by partners? 

Sebastian Kryh: So what we do is that we only work with partners. So, from time to time, of course, we interact with the brands and do that.

The perfect Dise partner is a full-service partner that takes care of all the pieces in the offering to the brands. Everything from creating the content to the consultancy of creating the concepts, installation support for all the partners. And what we supply is the in store experience platform and the support to the partners.. 

So, it would be a bit like, I know, I understand it's very different, but Broadside is they're UX, Their everything is all focused around digital out-of-home advertising. That's what they're there for, versus probably, the high 90s percentile of CMS software companies are general offers that have some specialty aspects to them, but they're pretty broadly focused.

It sounds like you're saying that Dise is very much retail UX, designed for retail that's where you're going to shine. 

Sebastian Kryh: That's where we're going to shine. Exactly, and that decision was made quite a number of years back where it wasn't more of a general feel to it. You could do basically everything you still can, but the main focus would be retail, and how we interact with the retail needs of campaign management and structuring of all the stores and the remote management you would need for that.

So, we feel that we are the ones who are focusing on retail and marketing ourselves as such and that's where we shine, and that's where we have the best results. 

So, you have in-store experience. How do you define experience, and how does the company define it? Because it's a very broad term and used quite a bit when I don't think there's a real experience to what is being floated. 

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah, sure. But it's also our way of thinking about combining the brand of the product experience together with them. What we can add is personalized communication and interaction that could be through an improved sales conversation or creating customer engagement. From everything, getting the correct feeling and vibe in the retail space to be able to have that really pointy and specialized content or communication for any given period of time or any use case in some sense, right?

So you've been doing this for 20 years. I realize you haven't been there the whole 20 years, but the company has been doing it. What has changed? Obviously, there's a lot more adoption of digital in store than there was 20 years ago, but I suspect that your target customers are also a lot more sophisticated and understanding of how to best use this.

Sebastian Kryh: Exactly, and beginning in the early days and as you said, I've been in the company before, for almost four years in different roles but it started out as really tech focused and the technology and the power that could be found 20 years ago was not where it is today, of course. Reading that it took more tech savvy and innovation to make stuff happen.

But we're seeing it more and more moving from really focusing on what the tech is and what the CPU power and stuff is. It’s more about what you can do with it and how you utilize the power that's available. I don't know if that was an answer to your question though, but we're of course seeing it from a perspective of also seeing it being a lot of Windows install or BrightSign installs where we're seeing external media players.

Now of course, we’re seeing the SOC devices being much more capable and powerful and being something that's growing faster, at least for us, than the external media players, which is still a clear majority of all the installs we have but we're getting more and more requests for advanced features to be connected with triggers and sensor to screen itself.

I get a sense in a lot of cases, let's say 15 years ago, if a retailer decided to incorporate digital signage into their in store experience. Quite often there were a whole bunch of screens and put on walls where there was available space. And it seems now that it's way less about the sheer idea of having a bunch of screens in a store. Maybe it's one or two screens but really thoughtfully positioned as, this screen behind the sales counter is for this reason and this one in the entry area is for this other reason and so on.

So, there's a lot more strategy behind it than before.

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That's exactly right. If we're going back a couple of years, it'd be okay. Now the 98 inch screen was put to market and everybody wanted to use it first. It's a cool piece of tech and that's also one thing, of course, that could bring attention but it's just, what do you do with it?

You might get a better experience or the message getting through more, even if it's a 55 inch, right? So we're trying to take a step back from the actual screen size for tech or led wall. This is what is the content and working through a channel strategy. It's not just, what do you want, what's the message and what do you want your end users to see and react to and how you could compile that to be having a synchronized story. 

Also the old ways we've been talking about omnichannel for many years but how are we seeing? What's communicated in the digital world on websites or on social media? How do you bring that in and make it feel natural when it comes in store? So you have a connected customer journey. We're getting more and more of those and what our partners are working towards, it's more and more connected to that journey. 

That's correct. So if I was to ask you, give me a good example of a company that you and your partners are working with, where they're really doing a nice job of applying digital in their stores, without putting you on a spot with the retail and making sure they're ones that you're allowed to talk about.

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah. So what are you saying that you want a partner we're working with or what was your question?

Are there things that are done in retail settings that are always reliably impactful and other ones that have been tried?

And I'm thinking about some interactive things I see that are more like Novelty than actually having an impact. I'm curious what works and what doesn't. I guess it is a shorter way of saying it. 

Sebastian Kryh: Help me understand what you're meaning. 

I have seen some interactive screens put into retail environments, particularly athletic retailing sporting goods stores, where I don't know why they did that other than the simple fact that, Hey, it's an interactive, you can boycott this screen and something will happen versus just the right position, the right sort of scale of screen and everything that just there is nothing fancy about it, it just works.

Sebastian Kryh: And coming back to what we said a couple of minutes ago is that you gotta think about what you want to communicate and what do you want to send and how is that to be used in the flow of the customer journey? So in some sense just getting a touch application or interactivity. Working might sound like a cool thing on the design board, but how it's then implemented if it's not used by the sales team to be a sales companion, for example, how to utilize it then it might be just as you say, might be a gimmick or something that's not really encompassed and used in the day-to-day work life in the retail space.

When you're working with partners, are you directly involved with the customers or are you at a relay point where your partner is talking to the customer and they're then coming back to you and saying, this is the functionality they would also like to have. 

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah. So exactly. So we work with our partners and as I said, from time to time, we are also invited to talk to the brands and to the partner's customers. But many times we only learn of a project or of a brand when we see the order of licenses coming in. So of course, we work closely with our partners to figure out if they're closer to the end customers than we are. They debate on figuring out what's the worst market, what are they feeling or if it's in sync with what our product roadmap is.

And from time to time, of course, we make alterations to it but we really feel it's important for us to own the product roadmap and understand how we want to evolve the product and try to encompass and use the feedback we get from our partners to add features or add workflows, but it might be right.

So we try not to build on the project by project, but in more sense, this is an area where we need to improve or add. When that is built into a product it then can be used by all partners and all customers in some sense. So there's only one version of the product given point.

Are you hearing or seeing much demand for audience measurement for analytics in store analytics? 

Sebastian Kryh: It comes in waves. But yes, it's definitely a thing where we're seeing it and then over in Europe, we've seen that there's different ways of doing it. Going back. We used cameras a while back through legislation, the GDPR and data protection, that's no longer a thing, but definitely for certain projects, that's something that's been used, but not in the majority of the cases.

Is that something you can, uh, provide within the platform or do you work with 3rd parties?

Sebastian Kryh: We would work with 3rd parties to specify that in some sense. What we do is we build the product, which is to then retail focus where that's the market we're aiming for. But we also have a strategy to partner with the best as it's coming with sensors like for audience measurement, whether it be a radar or a camera, what it be.

Then we have a few that we work with, then they will be better at making sure that the sensors are up to par and doing what they should be doing than we do it for them. So then we will partner and the same goes for retail media or do. We also see an increase in interest, especially retail media and how we then work with partners to do more of the advanced campaign management and bidding and such which were not built into our platform.

Is that something you're feeling pressure to have built into your platform? 

Sebastian Kryh: Not feeling pressure to have built into the platform. The partners we're working with and the ones we're talking to, future partners, they see they tend to like the idea of us being really good at what we do. And then when we can plug in or add in.

For example, the retail media is a partner to us or software that does that, they seem to, in some sense, honest on what we are really good at. We feel that we don't have to solve all the problems in the world, and then we can take a niche product like that and add that.

And then the offering gets and everybody's on top of the game. 

I've wondered a lot about the whole retail media space because it's been extremely buzzy for the last year or so. And everybody's talking about it, but it still seems like the in store digital piece is just a little tiny piece of it.

It gets mentioned, but I don't know that it's really front and center in many plans 

Sebastian Kryh: I would say we're seeing an increased talk about retail media and I guess that's also coming in from when we're seeing articles written about the value of it and how you can monetize your network.

But when it comes to rollouts, yes, there are definitely a few, but the majority is still the in-store experience and making sure you can communicate in a good and efficient way to your crowds as a branch. And when you're managing larger networks of thousands of screens, then you want to make sure that you have a platform or a CMS that, that works with that has those capabilities of everything from provisioning to remote management, software updates, of course, all these things that we sometimes take for granted.

There's better ways of doing it than ours. I think we got a good set of features in that area. 

One of the reasons that retail media is being buzzed or is so buzzy is this idea that in the same way that with e-commerce and online retailing, you've got traceability that you understand. 

Somebody came on the site and they saw this and then they bought it. That's a conversion rate that they can establish. It's much harder to do in physical retail. Are you getting requests and pushes to somehow or other create some more visibility in terms of how this promotional spot was seen for this period of time?

Sales went up X amount, based on AB samples, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that you could actually see that by using digital media in store, it had this net positive effect. 

Sebastian Kryh: And in some sense that will be not trying to back out the question. That'd be more for our partner, right? That would sit and talk directly to the brand.

But of course, we are responsible for what goes on screen. Then we would be able to tell, okay, these promotional ads were run at this specific time, like proof of play reports, for example, and then you need to cross reference that with the actual data from the point of sale saying, okay, we did these campaigns in these stores and sales went up 10 percent more than stores that didn't have the promotional ad.

Let's go with that one. But it's more of a combination of us supplying our part and then someone that needs to crunch the data from our partner or from the retailer themselves. 

So there's all kinds of discussions around integration with different kinds of business systems, including point of sale and inventory systems.

Is that something more that your intermediary partner would sort through and you can provide the API for your piece of it in terms of play out logs and everything.

Sebastian Kryh: Usually that’s the way it's done today, where we would be able to feed. Our partner would be able to create the concept for the retail or they would be able to pull that data from us and that’s what has actually been played and then add other parts of information to it.

So we're not trying to hold on to the information, okay, we need all the pieces of the puzzle to be important. This is what we contributed with and we know we create value by it and then if you want to, you could add other dimensions to it, like quality sales, for example. Then do that math and see what's the ROI, for example.

And there's definitely those projects or those robots that's measured on ROI, but I would say that the vast majority are not based on, okay, if we invest this much in screens, we want to see this much in sales. There are definitely those, but the most of them are coming back to the experience and feeling they want to create in their physical retail space and how can we make that better?

And to that end, how do they know it's better? How do they, how do you measure experience? 

Sebastian Kryh: That's a good question. I guess that's done in multiple ways from just the brand being feeling that this is the message we want to present, how we want to be seen and how we're doing it, and I know they've been doing surveys with customers saying, okay how do you feel this communication and this experience was compared to something else. But in some sense, that's not something that we are able to help much with, but then being able to work through our partners, creating the concepts, right?

But I guess other parts where we're seeing also operational efficiencies is that when you integrate to like PIM or the dam systems where we can trigger content and then such, make sure that we have the right content running on screens depending on availability of stock or picking up the product photos and making sure that the content that's on screen is automated by a template instead of someone having to click around and drag files and pick the right naming of the product. 

So those guys can focus on doing the analysis and the smartness and then we can have the system automate and create the content in an efficient way.

Are you seeing your end user customers doing much in the back of the house is like staff facing displays versus purely displays that are aimed at retail shoppers. 

Sebastian Kryh: I would say that 90% of the products are focused on the retail floor.

And definitely screens are put in the break rooms and such to display other information. But, as it has been retail focused, the corporate communications part of it. It's not something that we've dug deep into but we have brands and partners using our software for that, of course. 

You can display whatever you want on screen but the workflows and the product tend to look at the retail aspect of it and the floor. 

The project starts with what the shoppers are going to see, not with what the staff are going to see.

Sebastian Kryh: Exactly. That's a good way of putting it.

In terms of retail technology there is a very large ecosystem. There's no end to companies providing different kinds of business systems and everything else into retail. Are you seeing any other technology companies that aren't pure play digital signage that are like POS companies that are starting to market digital signage capability saying, we do these other things for you. We can do this too.

Sebastian Kryh: Yes. We've seen it and I don't have a name in my head right now but we've seen different views on it. There's always these places where we're doing really well, but we're really close to this area.

Why don't we try and do that also? And we're quite confident in our abilities and experience that we are the ones that want to use our products. They want a few extra steps in capabilities within the platform. 

So, if you want really basic capabilities, messaging does not going to change very often at all.

There's no granularity to it. You just put something up in every store and leave it there for a month or something. Then any old system might be able to do that. But if you want any level of sophistication, you've got to go to something that's designed for it. 

Sebastian Kryh: That's a good way of summarizing.

Yes, there's many thousands of CMS out there, but there's when we're talking about the big ones that we maybe see as our competitors, there's more advanced features in it and making sure that you take the operational standpoint also from adding the screen to adding the license and making sure it runs and have the efficiency during that time, but also, when you want to do updates or how you want to monitor the hardware over time, making sure that so we catch errors before they happen, how we can have alarms for players not, of course, not being connected, but also having it content scheduling it's not valid. 

For example, if you have scenarios or tags put in on the screen where we can see, okay, for this period of time, no scenario will be valid.

The content on screen won't show anything, but fallback content, for example. So you want safety features built in to take care of those things or notify you at least of those and that's just one example of just going that extra little bit to make sure that you are taking care of the partners we're working with and also the end customers. 

Many of the partners we work with, of course, have scheduling services. They offer that to the brand and the retailers, but quite a few retailers in our system are changing, updating and adding content together with our partner.

So it needs to work with both the large-scale efficiency of the partner and also with the retailer logging in themselves, adding content to the local store, the local campaign or the regional campaign. 

Are the Nordic companies in Northern Europe your primary market or are you all across Europe?

Sebastian Kryh: We're all across Europe and from early days we've been, of course, very European companies. So Europe has been our major market, but we've been working out of Asia also. We do have business in Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, and then other parts of Southern Asia and been working partly with North America also, mainly Canada and a few cases in the US, which now it's as we talked, it's the magic step to take for a European company to enter the US market. 

At the size we are at now, where we have a lot of good business and a good backbone in Europe, we're getting ready to take the step across the pond. We have a few partners, but we're definitely looking for more partners to help us engage in the U.S. market and the Canadian market for that matter. 

Can you provide some background on how the company is owned and everything now? I'm reluctant to say the name of the owner because I'm going to mispronounce it. So I prefer you to do that.

Sebastian Kryh: Vertiseit and the story behind that was to “advertise it” and we took out the “ad” in the beginning, so it just became Vertiseit. 

All right, because I was thinking about Vertiseit and this and that.

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah, but that's the story of it. And Vertiseit is today the holding company for two companies, Dise being one and Grsssfish being the other and..

GrassFish is in Austria.

Sebastian Kryh: They're an Austrian company founded in Austria, exactly, but now fully owned by Vertiseit. Vertiseit’s vision is to connect the world of retail and wants to be the leading platform company within digital in-store or in-store experience management Vertiseit purchased or acquired Dise in 2017 and started a journey of morphing the Dise journey from being a lot of on-prem and perpetual licenses to going into pure SaaS and focusing on the retail space and also clinging really tough too and true to the partner channel and how we only work with partners and reward loyal partners and coming into the other company within the group which has their own CMS or their own platform which they've been working on and they were acquired by the group in 2020. 

For a few years after, they work with partners, not always through partners to serve the brands with added services as agency and agency services. So it's really the channel that differs the companies.

Do the technologies get co-mingled at all? Or do you pretty much operate independently?

Sebastian Kryh: We operate independently. So that we're two different companies and two separate softwares. But of course, some of the tech guys might talk, okay, how can we solve this? And how can we do that within the group or the market play or customer play? 

It’s two different companies and we have a Chinese wall in between us. 

What happens when salespeople from both companies get a sniff at the same opportunity? 

Sebastian Kryh: Then we both go at it and that's happened from time to time. There was one quite recently where the Grassfish heard of it and also a Dise partner heard of it independently and both ventured into the opportunity and went for it and it's handled as two separate things. So we fight for ourselves. 

And the boss just says, you guys just be adults about it and let the best one win? 

Sebastian Kryh: Exactly. But of course, it comes down to differences in the product test with all CMSs. They have slight differences in everything.

And the one that won had the best offer with the best product match. So there's no decision made in top management. For this opportunity, we will put this one forward. If it's out there and if both are within their different channels markets, market strategies and waiting for the same then that's allowed and the brand will then choose which one they think is best for them and that's the one that should win. 

All right, last question. What might we see out of Dise in 2024? What's coming? 

Sebastian Kryh: We've been working on the CMS. We're getting really good rates about that and being more intuitive than ever. And I'd just like to mention just one thing before going to that is, we did a demonstration of the CMS for a now assigned partner. But a couple of months back was a potential partner. After demoing the CMS for 25 minutes and their response was, ‘Congratulations’. 

That's something we took back as being really proud of. Of course, they had a few questions on details, but it's really intuitive and really nice to use.

But what we see in 2024 is we'll add more to the playout part of it and how we can cover more operating systems as we're running today, the soft platforms and Windows platforms to do improvements there. So, that's a part of the CMS; of course, it's continuous improvement, but I think you'll see more and larger improvements or larger changes in the playout area. 

And do you have a standard ISE? 

Sebastian Kryh: We do have a standard ISE. We'd love for you to, of course, come by so we can show you some of the launch and the changes in ISE. So just take your time and swing by… 

And show your latest pots of pans.

Sebastian Kryh: Exactly. Right. 

All right. 

Sebastian Kryh: Yeah. Please come by and watch new things. 

Terrific. All right. Thank you so much for spending the time with me. 

Sebastian Kryh: Thank you so much for having me, David. It's been a pleasure.

Gil Matzliah, Novisign

I bumped into Gil Matzliah at a conference this summer, and told the software executive we were long overdue to do a podcast about what's happening with his company, Novisign.

We finally nailed down a date and time, and as it turned out, it was just days after the horrendous violence that broke out in Israel - where Matzliah and his company are based.

We chatted about the situation and the impacts on his company. He's fine, his family and staff are fine, but everyone is understandably rattled.

We then got into the roots of Novisign does, what's different about its CMS solution, and what they're seeing and hearing in the marketplace. Novisign was an early adopter of Android and it remains its primary go-to operating system.

Though Israeli, more than half of its business comes from the US and another quarter from Europe. And now the company is growing business in Japan.

Transcript

Gil, thank you for joining me. You’re in Israel, where a few days later things went crazy there. I have to ask, how are things going? How are you? And I assume the family's fine and everything? 

Gil Matzliah: Yeah. Thank you for your concern. Yes, me and my family are all good, also the team members that are here in Israel are good. Last Saturday was a very hard day in Israel. It's something we never expected would happen. But now we are good.

Your offices are pretty close to the West Bank, aren't they? 

Gil Matzliah: Yeah. So, Israel is a small and tiny country. It's not too big. So everything is close to everything. Our office is close to the West Bank, the conflict and all the issues you hear now in the news have been in the south area of Israel with the border of the Gaza Strip.

I hope everything continues to be fine for you and things settle down there.

Gil Matzliah: Yeah, we also hope so. At the end of the day, we like to work, we like to have peace, everybody wants to build good things together and so do our neighbors. In NoviSign, we have Arab Muslims, Christians from all around the world, Jewish people, we all work happily together and that's what we hope the world will go for. It's just this thing with the Gaza Strip that... and there's an organization called Hamas, who is making the issues and challenges for our regions, which I hope will be better moving forward. 

Has staffing been affected at all? Have you had members of your staff be called up to the military?

Gil Matzliah: Yeah, in many countries, they call some of the stuff but you can say it's less than 10% for a team all the time one or two people in total.

Yeah, it's just one of those things which you can't help but be directly affected in some way because of the size of the country and the way things operate, right?

Gil Matzliah: Exactly. Yes. 

All right. So enough of that. I don't want to dwell on it and no doubt by the time that things will have changed and hopefully gotten better. 

Just for the benefits of people who maybe don't know your company, can you run down what you do, how long you've been around and how you distinguish yourself in the marketplace as NoviSign.

Gil Matzliah: Perfect. So, we are NoviSign. We do digital signage software. Our company is based in Israel and provides services from all around the world. We have people in the US, Germany and Japan. With a team of more than 200 partners all around the world, we give a global software as a service for digital signage.

I started a company with my colleague, Avi 12 years ago. It was 2011. We established it here in Israel, with the dream to be a great startup, changing the world and leading the digital signage software. 

Have you changed the world? 

Gil Matzliah: It's not so easy but we're sure we'll do it. We are making changes. We are progressing. Opening a startup 12 years ago, that's a long journey and like a roller coaster, you go up, you go down, but you keep going forward all the time. And after a few years, we started to see the good results coming and since then we are growing and growing constantly every year. 

Good. So if you were lined up against, let's say, 10 other CMS software companies out there and somebody said, all right, I've looked at all these other ones. What is it about you guys that's distinctive and different and important? What would you say?

Gil Matzliah: Yeah. So, first it's the team. We came with a lot of experience in software programming. We are technical people. We are software programming people. We have opened the company to lead in the platforms that enable people to do that. So, it's the team that you work with. It's the technology behind the servers, the player, the communication, the integration and it's the offering that we have.

We have a wide offering, which is very reliable and secured and trusted by thousands of customers around the world. 

You mentioned security and I know you're SOC 2 certified. Was that important to do? 

I'm hearing more and more from a variety of different companies saying that the security piece of this is really important, maybe much more so than it was even a couple of years ago. 

Gil Matzliah: That's correct. So more and more organizations are looking at security, but also it's the maturity of the company.

So when NoviSign started with few installations, what you are busy with is just building software that works. And then after it works, you start adding more and more features. And when we started, we were looking at a small and medium businesses. But slowly, as people saw, we have a nice, easy to use platform, then the bigger companies started wanting it. But when you go for a bigger company, and as time changes, all these medium and large companies today want better security, they looki at all these RFPs, abd you really need good security in order to get these customers.

Have you evolved like a lot of companies have, where they started with the small to medium business market and now they're more focused on enterprise?

Gil Matzliah: We are not focusing on enterprise yet, but this is the growth engine that we have. So if you had asked me like five years ago, we wouldn't work with banks, insurance companies or bigger Fortune 500 companies. But if you look recently in the last five years, we started to work with a few banks and corporations and insurance companies worldwide and there is the bigger number of bigger business we work with now.

I'm curious when you say five years ago, you wouldn't have worked with a big bank or somebody like that. Is that because your platform wasn't ready for it or a very large customer, as I've said to some other people in the past, they could be great, but they can kill your company because they just get so involved and they can be so needy?

Gil Matzliah: It's a good point. So if I look at that, I can tell you an interesting story. Like a year or two after we opened the company and we have the website and we started to do promotions and we started to go to shows and I'm sitting in my home and suddenly I'm getting, today we have people in the US, but back then we were just in Israel, and a call was redirected for me from the US and it was the MTA of the New York transportation company asking about our platforms. 

And you're not really ready for these types of companies when you are less than 10 people, a small company with a new product. But once you are in almost 10 years or so, and you have enough people to support, enough understanding of the security, the features, the integrations, the platforms, then you get ready to serve the bigger companies. 

You work with a lot of different platforms and therefore hardware partners. I know you're on Android, you're on different SOC platforms for smart displays, all that sort of thing.

Is it a challenge to manage the variety of, they're all are just similar in certain respects, most of them are Linux in some way or another, but how easy or hard is it to stay on top of all those different ones? 

Gil Matzliah: It is a good point. It is a good challenge because looking at that, when you're a small company and at the beginning we started with Android.

I think we've been one of the first, if not the first, to develop an Android based player, an APK back in 2011. There are more and more people on Android, it's not the most of them. And then we started to add ithers, we added Windows, we added Chrome, we added Linux, now we are adding HTML Player, we are adding Tizen, we are adding WebOS, and we're adding more and more features. It's becoming very complex to support them all because once you have a change, you need to see it's working on all the platforms. 

And when you speak about the Android platforms, just the Android platform has so many versions. And we even have, lately, forced all our customers with Android that is less than 6.0 to stop using the system because until half a year ago, there were people that were still using Android 4.4 with us and the difference between Android 4 and Android 12 is huge. So imagine that fixed security support, as you say it's becoming to be more and more challenging and you need to grow the team and it's slower for you to add new features because you need to see that it's working on all the platforms, but we do believe we should be always hardware agnostic because what is differentiating a CMS software from a Samsung LG and all the other display manufacturers that are doing the software is that we work with all the platforms and they work just with their platforms. So we keep it as a focus for us. 

Is technology enabling you to go towards being operating system agnostic without having to make compromises in terms of, yes, we can work across all of these different platforms, but we can't do everything on each of them or whatever, which I've heard versus, natively written software that's native to Tizen, native to WebOS and so on.

Gil Matzliah: Yeah, it's hard to do 100 percent of your features on all the platforms. Not all the platforms, not all the OS work equally. So our main player from the first day until today is the Android, which we can do 100 percent of our capabilities. When you go to Tizen or WebOS, you are limited in some way, and then you need to give away some features sometimes when you're developing your platform.

Are you finding that the marketplace end users and your reseller partners are starting to settle in on certain solutions, like they're settling in on Android or whatever it may be? 

Gil Matzliah: I think you probably know better than me the hardware, the platforms, the ways to do digital science is like a big jungle. There are so many things and choices, even the software, you always say that there are many more CMS platforms. 

So there are so many varieties there. So I don't see anybody locking on anything and that's why we keep the diversity to be able to support the most.

For the technical people at AV companies that are just starting to get into digital signage or the AV IT people for end user customers. Do they look at this space and go, come on guys, can you just establish some standards and continuity and not have all these varieties of options? 

Gil Matzliah: They're asking for that. We are asking for that. I think the world needs that. The one thing, we do see that Android, since we started 12 years ago, and imagine 12 years ago, you didn't even have a set up box of an Android, or just the first one was just coming in 2012, like the year after we started, or the first year of NoviSign.

And today, most of the world, most of the set up boxes around the world are Android based. So we do see that Android... both the system on chip and both of the players have been the main platforms for digital signage. For us for sure, more than half of our installation and most of our installations are Android based either with a player or with a system of chip. I find it very strange that Samsung and LG are still struggling to stand out technology and not going with the mainstream. 

That seems to be changing. Samsung is moving away from its software partners, at least it certainly seems that way and marketing its own platform and LG WebOS now has a standalone player, a WebOS player, as opposed to you having to buy their display so that they've got some flexibility there.

So I think the big guys are seeing the need to either adjust or just decide, you know what, yes, we have partners, but we are going to do our own thing as well. 

Gil Matzliah: We believe in Android, but we still believe that we would need to be hardware and OS agnostic.

Partner and end user demands, have they changed through the years? Like what they wanted when you got into it or maybe even five years ago, is that different from now? 

Gil Matzliah: That's an interesting question. I don't notice a big change in the partners. But one thing is for sure, customers, partners, they want everything all the time, so we need to be there to deliver it for them.

The impression I get generally is both for the AV/IT ecosystem and particularly on the end user side, they understand the technology a lot more, they understand the benefits and so on. So you're no longer having to put stuff up on a website or elsewhere saying what is digital signage and here's the reasons you want to use it and so on. 

They get it, they understand it, perhaps they've used it, and now they're looking for their second generation of software because the first selection did the job, but didn't really do what they wanted or limited their capabilities. Are you seeing that? 

Gil Matzliah: Yes. I think the world is more familiar with digital signage. When we started 12 years ago, not many people would knew what it was, what you do with it, how you install it. 

And today, every new project of signage is an integral, internal mass part in all these new setup locations, public places, and when more and more people are dealing with that, then they have more knowledge about it and then they start to learn more, to ask for more and this is something we do see.

Are there particular vertical markets that you're seeing a lot of growth in and that you guys are focused on? 

Gil Matzliah: I can tell you about the geographical region. So most of our business, more than half of our business is coming from the United States, which is the easiest market to work with. The faster trying thing, understanding thing. Then we have the European market with a quarter of our business coming from there and they’re more conservatives, what they're getting, how they're getting, planning, trying and so on. And then, we have the rest of the world and we are focusing and growing in the last five years in Japan. We have a local team over there in Japan and in Japan they are testing more, asking more. If you deliver and if you have a lot of patience, then it grows. So these are the regions that we work with. 

As for the different sectors, we really don't have anything which is like more than 20 percent of our business. We do have hospitality, we do have health care, we have the cooperation, we do have retail. 

But we started a new initiative, which we spoke about in the past a little bit. We established with some partners a company named which is focusing on the retail industry. So everything which is fanning out from retail. Today, we are moving to this new initiative that we built and generally the sectors. 

Are you mainly selling through a “channel” or do you sell direct? 

Gil Matzliah: We are acting both direct and on the channels and both of them are significant for us. So, there isn't one which is more or less significant than the other.

A lot of our partners are white labels. There are so many installations around the world, which are based on the NoviSign signage that you won't even know. 

Which I assume is very important to these partners. 

Gil Matzliah: Yes, because for years, these partners have had their their software, their brand and our support behind it and we give them like instances and so on.

We give them confidentiality, of course, if an end user will turn anything upside down and look and research, after some time they’ll find us, but it's working fine for our partners and for us.

Are your partners layering on managed services so they're white labeling and then saying, we can run this network for you or at least keep an eye on it?

Gil Matzliah: Yeah. So when we're working with a local partner, and we have more than 200 of them all around the world. The nice thing is that, if a customer is calling us and say, I want to install this hotel, this hospital, this restaurant, this city hall, we'll tell him the first thing, we are a software company. We are SaaS, it's a do it yourself, we can support you over the phone.But if you want installation, if you want hardware, if you want initial setup, if you don't have the right people in your organization, then we can refer you to one of our partners. 

Our partners, they are integrators. They know how to build the right hardware, how to configure our software, and how to set it up for the customers, and they do it because they know it much better than us.

So, if a customer just wants to get the SaaS subscriptions and they're going to do it themselves, then your partners aren't going to really see anything out of that anyways. They're looking for the services and the hardware integration, all that stuff, so they're not too fussed if you go directly on that but if there's an opportunity to layer in things, then you throw it to your partners. 

Gil Matzliah: Yes, because we are not going to do meetings with our customers. We are not flying to customers. We are not driving to customers. We do everything software, everything from remote. As long as you need a meeting then it's not going to be sent anywhere.

Are there, “whale accounts”, big reference accounts or they could even be small ones that you, when you get asked about who you're working with that you're able to talk about? 

Gil Matzliah: One of our biggest accounts is Worten in Portugal, which is like Best Buy, that has more than 10,000 endpoints with us and we do have some other big corporations and hotels with us as well. In Israel, I can tell you some names like Ikea, Coca Cola, most of the hotels that are working with us here and many other big brands.

In that Portuguese big box electronic store, what are they doing in there? Is it strictly just big displays or are they doing interactive?

Gil Matzliah: It's more like a display of things, but they have a lot of initiative, they're very innovative and for more than five years, we work with them and they are always one step ahead of the market, whether it's very nice gates and video walls and presentation layers and everything related to products. In a way, when you go to the Worten store, it will dress the entire store with a special occasion, holiday, festival and the promotion that they do.

I'm curious about how your company is using AI. You come from a part of the world that has, pretty serious number of technical people, and some of the AI companies have come out of Israel. Are you applying it or are you looking at it as something you can use? 

Gil Matzliah: We know and believe that AI will be a part of digital signage. We know it's important. We know it's just the beginning of it now, so the value you can create with it, it's not big yet, but we know it's coming. So, at this phase, we didn't release anything or expose anything, but our technology team is looking at that and trying to do a few things. We might present something in ISE, which is coming at the beginning of next year.

And would you use it for… I moderated a panel the other night in New York about all this and I said the presentation layer of using AI for generated visuals and so on, is interesting, but to me, the truly interesting stuff is back of house automating routine tasks and creating marketing materials without a whole bunch of work involved, and one of the guys ran a media company was talking about data input and harmonizing data and all that sort of thing. So somebody looking at this from afar, they might think that's pretty boring, but it can be pretty valuable. 

Gil Matzliah: We are less looking on the operation side, as AI will help us see the operation side of the signage. We're more looking at the content creation for the signage itself, for the inputs. 

What about on the technology side? There's endless buzz about LED displays and new emerging display technologies on the display and the playback hardware side. Are there things emerging that you think are going to be important?

Gil Matzliah: We don't go into the display technology, the LED technology for us. It's more agnostic. So as long as it can get a resolution of a screen..

It's an output. 

Gil Matzliah: The one that you get as an input or an output is the way you look at it.

What about on media players and just computing power? 

Gil Matzliah: Yeah, the media player is the important stuff And the main question we all the time ask ourselves is, Is the world moving to a system on chip? Would it stay on the media players? Would it be a combination of them? Would the resolutions and the quality grow performance? And this is something we invest a lot of effort, thinking and development, especially working with all these different platforms which is a lot of maintenance to do.

Yeah, I think one of the interesting things and I'm racking my brain trying to remember who, but the idea of system on chip, but with an upgrade pass, so you could pop open a smart display and put in a new SOC three years out that has more graphics processing or some other capability that maybe that didn't have when you first bought it.

Gil Matzliah: That's an interesting direction. 

Alright. So if people want to know more about your company, where would they find you online? 

Gil Matzliah: You can look for NoviSign.com. All the information is there, the phone numbers, they can contact us, and we are looking for new partners all the time, that will work with us, innovate with us and take our software to maximum customers and locations.

And also, if you're an end customer and you want to learn more, you want us to support you with innovative technology and especially software, we'd be happy to have you visit at NoviSign.com. 

Alright, Gil. Thank you. I hope things calm down there and when I see you at ISE in a few weeks or a couple months. 

Gil Matzliah: Actually, we're planning to be in MEDICA in Germany next month and then in Las Vegas and then ISE in Barcelona. So wherever you're coming, I will always be happy to see you. 

Las Vegas and Barcelona, I'll be there. 

Gil Matzliah: Oh yeah. You have a mixer at both places. Me and my colleagues are looking forward to them.

All right. Stay safe and I’ll see you soon. 

Gil Matzliah: Thank you very much. 

 

Jason Ault, Coffman Media

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Jason Ault was working in the traditional sign business back in the late 2000s when a customer contract came along that required a digital sign. He had an IT background, so he stuck up his hand and took it on.

He caught the bug, so to speak, and has been in digital signage ever since - putting together an initial team that launched in 2010 as Coffman Media. The Columbus, Ohio-based solutions provider has found a niche in the middle of buying market - not the little guys who can't offer much scale, and not the Fortune 500s that are going to opt for a national integrator, major software firm or even a giant consulting firm.

Coffman is particularly active providing a solution, plan and services in workplaces and in regional and mid-sized QSRs, notably coffee chains.

Jason and I chat on this podcast about its services, how the marketplace and needs have evolved, the gulf that still exists between conventional and digital sign companies, and the steady need for educating end-users.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Jason, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me a bit about Coffman Media and your role there? 

Jason Ault: Absolutely. Coffman Media is a digital signage integration firm that we started almost 14 years ago and I am the co-founder and chief operating officer.

You guys are in the Columbus, Ohio area and then down in Jacksonville as well? 

Jason Ault: That's correct. We just opened the Jacksonville office just over a year ago. But servicing customers all across the US, Canada, and Mexico. 

How did you get into it? 

Jason Ault: Back in 2008, I was with a traditional sign company, and we were doing a big mall redevelopment project, and some of that scope called for digital signage and back then, my background was computer information, so we decided to say yes to that part of the scope as well. Took it on, partnered with CoolSign way back then before Haivision acquired it and really caught a bug for the industry, started formulating a team that we wanted to put together, and launched the shingle of Coffman Media in February of 2013.

It’s interesting, that the traditional printing industry seems like this is something that they have to go towards and evolve into, and while we've seen some of it, it still seems like an industry that's not really made the jump or evolved into it.

Jason Ault: I absolutely agree, and we see the same thing as well. Just knowing that industry, from my previous life and also working with a lot of traditional sign companies, it is a struggle for them to get into because it does require some computer skills and some networking skills. Obviously, they may have some content chops and metal fabrication chops, but they still need that networking and computer element. 

Is that something that you guys help out on? 

Jason Ault: Absolutely, everything from traditional sign companies to managed service providers, because they don’t know the signage side, even they don’t know the IT side, architects, really anyone trying to get into digital signage side, we can help them in pre-sales support, demos from CMS partners that we have, training up their clients, passing it off, supporting their clients, really however far they want us to go into the weeds with them, we can help them out. 

So you start all the way at the ideation stage with some customers and can take them all the way through managed services?

Jason Ault: Absolutely. It depends on where they want to jump off and take over. We can come in under their banner; we can come in as partners with our logo. This depends on how they want to present us as a partner to the end customer.

It's interesting because the digital signage market, particularly the software companies tends to present their products as being very easy to use, and very intuitive. They spend a lot of time explaining use cases and everything else but still seems to be a big leap for traditional companies who don’t think about this stuff sometimes. Why is that?

Jason Ault: At the surface level, we are right in some aspects, it is easy to use but as digital signage use is evolving, content is getting dynamic. People want to integrate into data that's living out on the web somewhere or integrating into a point of sale or a plethora of other things that you can plug into. That's where things get lost and they need someone to come in and help tie all those things together.

I refer to companies such as yours as solutions providers as opposed to integrators, which sounds like an arms and legs hang and bang situation. Is that a term that fits?

Jason Ault: Yeah, at the end of the day, we are a solution provider. We live on both sides of the world, but at the end of the day, we're always starting with the end in mind, working backward, and figuring out what solution fits that customer's needs. We're not just one CMS partner shop. We're not just one hardware shop. It really is what fits customers' needs the best.

And so you don't have your own software, you don't have proprietary hardware or anything else, so you're able to just look at a job and figure out, okay, based on what Mr. Customer's tell us, here's what we'd recommend. 

Jason Ault: Exactly. We've got three core CMS partners that we've formulated over the years with Signage Live being our longest tenure at 13 years running, and then hardware runs the gambit to whatever that platform supports, and then we pick from that bucket. 

So, why would you have three software partners?

Jason Ault: This depends on the customer. Sometimes a need is going to lean towards their benefit more. So if we need a native POS integration, we can look to engage Spectrio. If we need a lot of data binding, we can look at Wallboard, but our largest partner is really Signage Live because they approach it from an API-first headless perspective so we can do a lot of unique things with them and we developed really great projects over the years, so that's the standpoint but again the need is justifying the partner that we bring to the table for that total solution. 

That's interesting. I obviously have a relationship with Spectrio and know their product very well because of the ownership position. But the Signage Live component when Jason Cremins, the CEO of Signage Live, told me three years ago now, that he was going down the path of headless CMS, it was early days for that, and I had to ask him to tell me what that is and he did, and I thought I could see the marketplace moving towards this thing just because of the flexibility that it presents. Is that what you found? 

Jason Ault: It is, and then it correlates to what came out and the Invictus reports last year or this year, I can't remember which one it was, where it's talking about the new wave of architecture that's gonna have to come down the pike for CMSs partners and that's really where I think Signage Live was a little bit ahead of the curve and had already gone down that path of headless API first and how they were going to market three years ago.

Yeah, I think Stefan from Invictus describes it as the old style is very monolithic, and the new style is composable, where you can come at it from different angles and inject content and make things happen. Plus, you can use your own tools. 

Jason Ault: Exactly. 

Have you found over 14 years that customer needs have evolved?

Jason Ault: A hundred percent. I'd say 30% of our business this year will be Gen 2, and Gen 3 digital signage partner relationships for us. And it's not because they were unhappy necessarily with their partner, but the infrastructure or solution that they had in place for however many years, it'd be no longer able to suit their needs.

Everything from being able to ingest outside content in unique ways, supporting new hardware that has security measures being able to pass all these, security requirements now. So everything is secure from the customer's standpoint. Those kinds of things are changing quite rapidly.

 Yeah, and you're sitting up above this.

I'm very curious because you have your software partner, and I'm sure you spend a lot of time looking at everything that's out there. I'm curious, if you find that a lot of software companies are stuck in their lane and don't have the mechanism to expand and make what they have more open.

Jason Ault: Yeah, I think it's absolutely true. Whether it comes down to how it's built or just where they're in the market and they can't really move past it. They do have their niche and that's just where they stay. That's where I think we have three great tools in our tool belt that can handle pretty much anything thrown at us, from a unique perspective one of mail digital signage to something that's experiential.

I talk to companies a lot about the importance of identifying the marketplace understanding, what you do, and what you're particularly good at versus general offers. 

As a solutions provider, have you started to focus on particular vertical markets, or is it somewhat generalized? 

Jason Ault: We're starting to focus really in the last 12 months, and that's really between corporate communication and quick service restaurants. We had some really great wins in each of those sectors and found our identity in those, but that's still not to say that we won't serve other opportunities that come to our direction either through partners or just by knocking on the door.

Those are two incredibly competitive markets to go after. How do you set yourself apart?

Jason Ault: It’s a great question. In a way, it’s hyper-competitive. So, we are not necessarily fishing for the whales or maybe not even the tunas, but in that mid-market space, someone with 100 locations, or maybe they're just coming up to that three-digit all the way to approaching the four-digit mark, we really found a nice little lane where we can help them out from setting up what a total solution should look like, rolling it out and being that consultative arm for them, vverything from clearance bars through headsets to digital signage, really every piece and stack that could be around that whole ecosystem, and we're bringing it together as one package. That's where we're setting ourselves apart from and then serving that kind of middle market. 

Yeah, I suspect when you talk about the whale accounts in QSR and even in Fortune 500 companies for workplace communication, the large ones are not as price-sensitive. They're somewhat conditioned to working with big consulting companies and just large service providers versus, as you described, the regional ice cream chain or whatever where those kinds of companies come in to see them. They're looking at them like, you want two extra zeros from us, and that isn't going to happen.

Jason Ault: Exactly. A lot of the time, those mid-market franchise orders are struggling with the balance of how do I either roll this into the total package for new stores or they want us to deal with the franchisees directly, and a lot of times, that can be very cumbersome for an organization, but we take that on, and yes, it comes with our own licks, shut doors and we don’t get paid, or we are served bankruptcy papers but we’ve been able to make some wins at it. 

We are hyper-focused within the QSRs side, and we found a home with coffee chains, I don’t know how they fell in, but it just started to snowball.

I think it's one of those cases where they don't quite understand what they're asking for and why they need it, but if they can see an example of another chain that they compete with or are familiar with, they can see, okay, this is what they did so yeah, we want that too. 

Jason Ault: It's kind of a way of Keeping up with the Joneses’ aspect, and that's where we're able to show them, here's the package that we do, obviously skewed for their particular organization, but helping them along the way, getting them familiar with understanding what they're asking for and then making sure that the value is perceived from the dollar they are spending.

The pandemic and the lockdown compelled QSR, in particular, to start looking more at this because maybe they had to do drive-through, which they didn't do in the past, and they had to do self-service kiosks because staffing became an issue. 

Jason Ault: It did, and it didn't. We actually had a couple of partners that reverted away from digital because they were now just doing takeout as more on the piece of the side where they were having dine-in. They just realized that it's not going to change. They're doing a lot more just from the mobile pickup delivery, that kind of aspect. But then, on the other flip side of more traditional quick-service, absolutely, really force them into thinking how we can work better in the current market?

And then that's just propelling it forward three years later.

I still see pretty substantial QSR chains out there that have issues with what's on the display and that they're not integrated fully or properly with their restaurant management system. So they're doing things like putting stickers over the top of items that aren't available or wrestling with them, do I stroke something out on the screen, or do I make it disappear? 

Are those things pretty elemental?

Jason Ault: It is, and it is a struggle, and seems to me, the larger the organization is, the less process there is in order to ensure that screens are operated in the correct fashion. We see it all the time, whether it's a drive through which I'm personally going through or one we're trying to win the business up. You can set things in motion, and one of them starts with integration and giving some autonomy for people to fix the screen. That way, your corporation does not necessarily have to be the big brother that’s managing everything. 

There are roadblocks to put in place to stop those things from happening. Physical tape is a little bit harder unless we shock somebody when they touch it, but there are ways to put those stops in place.

When you're dealing with the small regional to mid-size chains, is it more challenging technically because maybe they're not standardized on restaurant management systems, point of sale systems, that sort of thing?

Jason Ault: It's a little challenging. One thing that we try to do is bring in partners if that is the case. Talking with point-of-sale companies, they don't necessarily go that route, but at least we can bring in some people to help in that scenario. We do like to at least have them unified on point of sale, so we're doing only some kinds of integrations, but it is a struggle for sure. 

Even a chain of a hundred stores we're currently working with, they've got two or three points of sales because some people are still on legacy contracts and things like that, and we just have to work with those as they pop up.

Do you have to spend a lot of time educating franchise owners that this is why you want to do this, because they really don't wanna drop $15,000 on a drive-through display?

Jason Ault: Hundred percent. Pretty much every partner who a customer, whom we are aligned with, at their annual conventions talking, teaching, and explaining the value, because we just had one that was doing dual lane drive-through, and that obviously doubled the cost.  They went static rather than digital. They just didn't see the extra value of spending the 50 grand to do all of that. So, it still needs to improve the current partners that we have today. 

I'm curious about the workplace side where you're seeing traction. Like how is it being used?

Jason Ault: That's a great question. We do a lot of manufacturing right on the plant floor. Keeping those folks up to speed on what's going on, and then we're also doing a lot of just traditional workplace communication, between multi-sites and multi-silos within the organization just to generalize workplace communication. Still, manufacturing has had a pretty big uptick. Everything from screens down at the machine level to doing some video walls on the plant floor that everyone can see with some workplace KPIs and things like that to get some real-time information to the floor folks. 

Yeah, that's always struck me as more useful in many respects than white-collar environments like offices because there are typically ways to communicate to people all the way down to the level of a manager walking out and talking to somebody, but when you're in a desk-less environment, and you've got a whole bunch of workers who maybe don't even have English as a first language, how do you reach these people? How do you tell people what's going on? How do you motivate them? All those things. 

So it's encouraging to see that now, really starting to get some traction.

Jason Ault: Yeah, absolutely, and we're also seeing a couple of the real estate players that are in the commercial side, taking a look at putting in digital signage as part of these packages to make it an entire scene for someone coming into renting the warehouse for the manufacturing business.

So, it is just part of their infrastructure? 

Jason Ault: Exactly. So it’s, “Hey, this is why you should choose me over the competitor's space. We have this great infrastructure”, and then when that tenant leaves, they can wipe it all clean and have it ready for the next person.

Do you have to future-proof those sorts of things? Because if there are tenants and they sign a five-year lease, and somebody else comes in, are the screens still in the right place, or maybe a five-year window is enough, and you don't worry about that? 

Jason Ault: I don't know if we can have the right data for that. We've only been doing it for about two and a half years in that space. We're keeping it at a five-year warranty window for those particular devices going in once a year, doing some maintenance, doing some checks on those particular locations. But time will tell as the next two-and-a-half-year cycle comes up on what we have our hands on.

I'm curious about very elemental digital signage in office environments.

I've got another press release today from a CMS company that's integrated with a video streaming platform. This one's with Zoom, but I've seen at least three companies integrating with Microsoft Teams. The idea is that you can use the video conferencing collaboration displays in meeting rooms as digital signage screensavers. But it strikes me as interesting, but awfully elemental, and what does that really accomplish? 

Do you fight with that at all? 

Jason Ault: We don't necessarily fight with that.

We have some CMS partners that can do that with the Mersive solstice pods, with the Barco click shares, and turn it into some digital signage when that is not in use for the huddle rooms or the conference rooms. But it's not been a huge adoption, at least from our book of clients.

Yeah, it just hits me, and some of it, I suspect, is probably pretty good, particularly those that started with a full-throated digital signage, CMS. But some of the particular ones that the companies like, maybe Mersive, I have yet to see their stuff, but I assume it's pretty basic. I wonder if it's if the end user customers look at it and go, that's all we need.

Jason Ault: In those situations, even when we're doing the ones with Barco click share and putting signage live on those devices, when it's not in use for its screen sharing capability, they have the full-fledged option to treat it as a traditional screen.

But, sometimes, these are in huddle rooms with a door that may not be open. I wouldn't put, “Hey, there's a fire alarm going on”, because someone may not be in there. So, in our opinion, an odd industry because those rooms were not in use. Are they ever seen? It really depends on the client. We have a client, Washington Prime Group, here in Columbus, Ohio, that has glass conference rooms and huddle rooms, and it makes sense for them because everyone can see as you walk through, and it’s above the privacy shelf.

Yeah, I was curious about an announcement by Mersive. They were going into a whole bunch of WeWork co-working locations, and I thought what they were doing was interesting because it's probably quite elemental, but their whole business rationale is they've got sensors that recognize that somebody's coming into the room, and when that happens, the screen goes on and says, hey, you need to book this, or have you booked this?

If not, it needs to be booked; get the hell out. It didn’t say that part, but it's all about addressing operating concerns just in the same way that meeting room displayed when those started coming out about 6-7 years ago, addressed a pain point as well. 

Jason Ault: Absolutely. I think tying it into a sensor could definitely alleviate that concern.

It also gives you analytics on how much it actually is being used. 

Jason Ault: Exactly.

Let's talk a little bit about AI. It's on everybody's minds these days. Have you looked at that as something that can help support your customers and support your business, or is it something you're just kind of watching?

Jason Ault: We're playing with it and watching it. It has not made it to assisting our customers at this point, that something is coming down to the pipe with Signage Live and some of their offerings, where we can do some AI-generated things. But probably the first thing that's going to help our customers is an AI driven chat bot for our support team, to take the load off of them and then see if we can drill down some response and some resolve times.

So somebody comes in and if they can get a question answered just by going through the chatbot prompts and delivering a solution or at least some information to them without having to wait for 5-10 minutes for one of your support people, that helps? 

Jason Ault: Exactly. So that's probably the first thing that we're playing with and, of course, just like everyone, we're playing with it from a marketing and writing perspective. But just still watching it on how we can best utilize it by putting it into production for customer sake. 

Yeah, my son is heavily into AI to the point where he is doing consulting for some people on what tools to use and everything else, and I've got him doing some work for me, and I've looked at things, and the image generation is interesting, but it's still very weird and surreal in certain respects, and on the writing side, it's great for people who can't write to save their lives, but for people like me, I've been in journalism for 40 years, it's like this stuff is so elemental and it can crank something out in 30 seconds, but it's not very good.

Jason Ault: It's definitely still a jumping-off point, but it's gotta have someone of skillset to reread that and fix those mistakes or add in professional tone or the writing tone of the organization. 

We've talked about headless and AI, obviously. Are there hardware sides of technology that you're watching and thinking it is going to be a big deal going forward?

Jason Ault: We've pretty much set in our lane from a hardware perspective. Of course, we watch Direct view of the market that's evolving there. But, we're really just watching the products of our current partners, the big three screen manufacturers, and seeing the products that they are rolling out, coming off the line with, that we can put into the marketplace, but shiny balls and things like that, not really. 

I try to keep my blinders on so no one gets confused or takes us too far down a rabbit hole. So we try to just keep main hardware partners, and main software partners and run the race. 

To me, the thing that's going to be interesting is when micro LED gets to a level and maybe complementary technologies or very similar technologies that you start to see, non-traditional display services, whether that's architectural glass or even countertops, that you can start to see content arrive on and be crisp and visible and everything else.

Jason Ault: Yeah, I definitely think that can go a long way with micro LED and the cost being affordable at scale for sure. We are getting more architectural requests, flying things on the ceilings, and whatnot. So we’re watching in that regard just to see how we can help those architect partners that we talked about earlier on in our chats, fulfill some of their needs, that they design it.

When you bump into new customers or potential customers and they ask you, alright what's a good reference account? What's something I could go check out? What do you tell them that you’ve done?

Jason Ault: Yeah. We take a look at obviously, who they are, and if they're talking about quick service, we’re pointing them in the line of Biggby Coffee or an up-and-coming chain, Crimson Cup Coffee. If we're talking about retail and malls, we’ll take a look at malls for Washington Prime Group, and their 120 malls across the country.

When it comes to Directview LED, we've got a couple of convention centers in Columbus and Texas, and then some adjoining hotels that have some direct view installations. If they're looking at cameras, we can tell them to jump into a number of hundred different areas across the country to take a look at. So we're not short on pointing people in the right direction, that's for sure. 

Okay, if people want to know more about your company, where do they find you online? 

Jason Ault: They can find us online at coffmanmedia.com or on LinkedIn with our Coffman Media company page.

And where's the Coffman coming from?

Jason Ault: So, we weren't really creative 13 years ago. So there was a founding family in Dublin, Ohio, the Coffman family, and we decided to make it a regional name play. 

Fair enough. Is the Coffman family still involved? 

Jason Ault: No, they were never involved. We just decided to name it after them; they probably don't even know it. Everyone asks, is there a Mr. Coffman who started it? No, there's not. Sorry, it's a boring story. 

I know, but you can blame it on him. “Coffman did that, but he's gone.” 

Jason Ault: Good point!

Alright, Jason, thank you.

Jason Ault: Alright, thanks, Dave. I appreciate it.

David Title, Bravo Media

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

We've seen a noticeable rise in the last couple of years of visual illusions and other trickery on big digital OOH screens and other surfaces presented as real screens, when they're not.

There's enough of it that observers have started giving it names, like virtual out of home, Fake DOOH or the one I like - Faux DOOH. Arguably,  the most notable ones involve Dubai landmarks - a giant, empty picture frame in that city turned into an Adidas billboard celebrating Lionel Messi's World Cup win. Or a giant Barbie taking a step in a plaza, with the Burj skyscraper looming in the immediate background.

They're fun and noteworthy, but if people got in their cars to go have a look in person, they'd be disappointed, because they're totally computer-based compositions overlaid on surfaces that don't have screens. And it absolutely happens.

David Title of the New York creative technology shop Bravo Media goes back and forth with me a lot about this stuff, on social media.  While we both have a problem with CGI creative presented as real when it isn't, we have differing opinions on its validity and value.

In this podcast, we get into what's going on, how it is done, the good and the bad, and interesting things like the legal implications of running a Faux DOOH ad overlaid on a real screen that the media owner otherwise sells. It's a fun half-hour.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

David, thank you for joining me. We've chatted once before, but that was in your office in New York. Can you give me a rundown of what Bravo Media does, first of all? 

David Title: Sure. Bravo is a creative production studio with a very sort of direct focus on real-world, real-time experience, and for us, that sort of splits almost down the middle between working on events across trade shows, conferences, activations, launches and then working on projects within the built environment around corporate environments and retail display and hospitality and immersive attraction and combining the world of visual content animation 2D and 3D modeling video along with interactive development and design.

Would you liken yourself more to an agency or like a solutions provider because, I know, a lot of the stuff you do involves some hardware as well, like you've gotta figure that part out?

David Title: Yeah, we straddle a lot of those traditional titles. We work with agencies quite often to help them execute projects that they have developed with their clients.

We also work directly with clients across a lot of areas, especially in the B2B space, on projects in which we're helping from ideation right through delivery. And on the hardware side, we really partner across the board with folks in the AV and hardware space. From LED providers, integrators, manufacturers, and all those folks have to come together.

The thing that's so challenging and exciting about the idea of experiential marketing is that it does require a swath of people with different specialties, and any place that's saying they were doing it alone is either lying or doing it badly. 

I know it's always difficult to talk about projects that you've worked on because a lot of your customers don't allow you to say anything. But are there ones that you can provide references that people might be familiar with? 

David Title: Sure. I think a couple of things that have been fun for us that are out in the public eye; I know NFL season is starting up again shortly, and we got to work on a pretty exciting project as they were building out the new NFL Broadcast Studios, network Studios next to SoFi Stadium.

And we helped create this pretty phenomenal piece of the studio called the Duke, which is half of a giant extruded glass and metal football, but each pane of glass is actually reactive. So it can go from opaque to transparent in a microsecond and then fully projection mapped. So, we're able to go from this clear display that people walking behind it can see through to the show floor and turn it into a full-fledged display for on-air graphics. That was a really fun piece to collaborate with some really excellent folks across the space, and it's fun to see it on TV and see the differences in how it's been used over the last couple of years.

You also did that QSR in Times Square. Are you allowed to talk about that one?

David Title: The Revlon Spot?

I'm thinking of donuts.

David Title: Oh, yeah. We did the Krispy Kreme experience for Times Square, sort of flagship for Krispy Kreme.

Okay. So you can talk about that.

David Title: We can talk about that a little bit. We created the Donut Theater Experience, and part of the fun of that shop is that, as you're waiting in line for your donuts, you're standing watching their fully automated sort of donut production line do its magic tricks. We enhanced that with a whole bunch of projections, including projecting on their glaze waterfall and making tracked projections onto donuts, which required creating a piece of software called 'Is that a donut,' which is fun to use in other projects and the whole integrated system of little shows that happen throughout the day, showcase that space. 

Interesting. I'm finally getting back to New York in a couple of months. Go down there and see as much as I try to avoid Times Square, but it's been a while, so I should go. 

David Title: I gotta say, in terms of digital out-of-home, there's definitely been a sort of explosion of really gigantic displays now in Times Square.

We've got that big TSX board now with the stage doors that SNA put in that I walk past almost every morning on my way to work. I cut very quickly through Times Square to get to the other side.

Zigzag around the tourists, although it's probably not the first thing in the morning as much.

David Title: It's amazing how early they get out there. Sleep in.

Alright, so we're mentioning Times Square. The reason that we wanted to have a chat was to talk about the emergence and somewhat the explosion of, first of all, anamorphic video or visual illusions on these big LED boards. But, more to the point, these visual illusions that don't actually exist are being developed by brands using CGI artists and everything else and being presented as the real deal in some cases or being assumed as the real deal.

And I have a problem with those instances which are frequent when stuff gets put up on LinkedIn or Twitter or other social media channels saying, 'Look at this amazing thing in Dubai or wherever, or one of the most recent ones was this giant, I don't know how tall it was. Purported to be like an 80-foot-tall Barbie near the Burj Khalifa. And people are going, oh my God, I have to see that, and I was going on LinkedIn saying it's not actually real. It's just a CGI thing, guys, and I think that's problematic. We've gone back and forth with this, and you said it's actually pretty interesting and opportune.

So, what's your perspective on it? 

David Title: I think it's interesting you bring up the anamorphic, quote-unquote, 3D displays that have been happening on a lot of billboards around the world. And in some ways, that kind of started this whole discussion because one thing that we both saw in a lot of people on LinkedIn and other places like Instagram and Twitter, that there was a mix of actual footage taken on the street of these displays from that perfect viewing angle. And they looked really cool and really amazing, and then, there were a number of comps that are CGI artists creating content that is superimposed onto video of those same billboards. Sometimes, they do really well, and sometimes, with less viability, as they leave the frame of the billboard and things like that.

In some cases, it is being used by manufacturers and resellers claiming to have 3D billboards or 3D LEDs, which is very misrepresentative and super problematic. I think across the industry, for everybody, it creates false expectations and limits your ability to show off what actually is cool and impossible.

And I think it just creates a negative connotation across the board, and at the same time, of course, like at Bravo, because we create a lot of original experiences. We create a lot of comps for our clients all the time as a way to help explain and understand how something's gonna look.

We use it as part of our design process, part of our creative process, and the next iteration of that, and honestly, the first one of these that I remember being in that space between a fake that many people thought was real. The Soho Zara storefront, which was, again, a really well-crafted fantasy comp, which, if for no other reason than once it was completed, the space seemed to have no doors, which is problematic for retail. I think if you have a really killer window display and nobody can get in it, it's a little self-defeating.

There were plenty of other reasons why it was impossible. The artist that created it, I don't think, created it with any intent to make people think it was real. That same artist has done plenty of other pieces similar to this and has a history of these sorts of works.

But Zara did post it on their own Instagram without saying it wasn't real, and I know people that went down there to see the store. People that I thought were smarter than that, to be honest. But I get it. You get wrapped up, you get excited, and I think the beauty of these sorts of comps and fantasy installations is that they are super inspirational, and they are exciting, and they're really fun.

And then you got to this next level. I think over the last six or seven months, the biggest ones that I think people saw and some people bought into, and some didn't, but all were put out there without a direct statement that they weren't real. There was a big Argentina billboard after the World Cup. There was the French bag company that I won't pronounce properly, that started with a 'J' that made handbag cars that drove around Paris which looked great. Maybelline did a mascara thing on subways and buses that looked like they had giant eyelashes, and then I think the one that really went super viral was that Barbie piece that you were talking about.

And the coach had a fun piece for their new coach Topia popup, which also a number of people thought was real, and clearly, they've never tried to get anything past a permitting board in New York City because that wasn't going to happen.

One of the people on LinkedIn said, "You should go down and check it out", and I challenged him, I said, where are they gonna check out? That's a comp, it's an AR thing. 

David Title: Yeah, and it's super fun. I think what's exciting about it from our perspective is that, first of all, I don't think there's any value or any point in anyone involved in these projects directly and saying, "Hey, This is real when it's not."

Is there a responsibility to do something somewhere out there that loudly says, this isn't real? I don't know. They don't say that on The Fast and the Furious. But I don't know, cars in outer space. Oh, I guess that's Tesla's outer space. But anyway. But you know what it allows for one is it allows even small brands, challenger brands, and not-for-profits to create the experience of their dreams and realize it at a fraction of the cost of executing it in the real world. And with out-of-home in general, obviously, you're first buying for those views on the street.

But the bonus for out-of-home is if your content is so good that it gets picked up and shared on the internet and across social media and picked up by the news. When that happens, it's a massive boost, and so if you look at these current virtual digital out-of-home campaigns, you're not getting those street views, but you're getting an exponentially higher number of impressions through social media. So, I think in that way, it's such an exciting way to explore what's possible and also to play around with reality. And, if you watch those handbags driving around Paris, and it feels real, and it looks real, then that's a great experience for you to have watching it.

And the fact that it was synthesized doesn't make it any less fun or engaging than Fast and the Furious. 

Does it matter if it's not technically possible or incredibly expensive to do? If you did wanna make it possible? I'm thinking of some of the anamorphic illusions, where the physics doesn't work; the visual is escaping well beyond the borders of the display. To me, that's more problematic. 

David Title: To some degree. Again, I think most of those that I've seen start with somebody claiming it to be a real thing and that they have some special product that does it, and that I have a real problem with. 

The other question and this is probably more controversial, but on video, in theory, Brand Z could virtually take over every billboard in Times Square and pay nothing to the owners of those displays as far as I know. I don't know if those laws have been written.

Yeah, I think you're right. Ocean Outdoor is a big UK digital at-home media company. Big media owner has the big ass display right in Piccadilly Square or the circus, pardon me, and they put out something recently saying, yeah, we do have a problem with this because you have companies who are appropriating our media space and presenting it as something that they booked and ran on it when they didn't. 

David Title: And that's an interesting question. Because, in theory, what they're selling is digital out-of-home, and what I've done is made a video of the surroundings. And then, can I do a video where I put lipstick in a funny hat on the Statue of Liberty?

Or can I make it look like the Lincoln Memorial has been dressed up for the circus? 

Oh, Lord. 

David Title: There's always been a history of advertising stunts. Some of which have been more moral or ethical. Burger King did an AR takeover where it turned their competitors' logos and things on fire.

So you'd point your phone in the McDonald's outlet, and it would be flame-broiled or whatever. I can't remember exactly how it operated, but they impacted their competitors. And again, I'm like, I opted into that. Is that Avaya? Probably some interesting court cases are coming, I would guess.

Or some, at least starting with some cease and desist letters, maybe. 

Yeah, you live in a very litigious country, and I wonder about those graphic artists, particularly if they're commissioned by a, let's say, a fashion chain or whatever to do something.

And they create a piece on a building that doesn't even have a display on them. Some commercial property company has, and they see that and are gonna stick their lawyers on them and say, guys, you're using my building as an out-of-home media display. 

David Title: I would counter that when a movie shoots in a city, every building in that shot is part of the scenery that I'm using in my movie. They're not getting paid.

Let's see what happens. You just gave some lawyer an idea.

David Title: I know. I hate that. That was not the point of this conversation, Dave.

The point of this conversation was to inspire people to get excited about virtual digital out-of-home and see the possibility. But what I think is fun about it and, again, moving even beyond and creating virtual billboards or virtual content onto real billboards are some of the larger, more imaginative things you can do.

The coach piece the Maybelline piece, and even, to some degree, the Barbie piece, which honestly was so clearly CGI that I don't really feel like anybody can be upset that they were trying to be fooled. Come on, it's an 80-foot woman with no nothing behind her.

Yeah, I think the Dubai frame one with Leonard Messi was more convincing to a whole bunch of people.

David Title: Yeah, it was; I got phone calls asking how they did it, and...

You said they didn't.

David Title: I said they didn't. They did. That's the fun of it.

And also, the whole thing with all these things are the ones that really are successful because they look great, they're a really fun idea, they inspire a level of enjoyment and engagement. It's good advertising, and I think the few people who feel slightly tricked by it don't really cause a negative brand impact.

Whoever owns the Dubai frame, whether that's a municipal thing or a private entity or whatever it may be, should they be paid for that usage? 

David Title: Yeah, it's a good question, and at what level? And by what metric? and I don't know what the line for that is.

People take videos in Times Square all the time and alter things and change things and post them on their feeds, where is it artistic expression? What am I allowed to do? Because it looks cool and fun 

When you have something like the ZARA Store or the Adidas Lionel Messy thing in Dubai. Those aren't cheap to produce to do them well, as you were saying. Does it tend to be the brands that are commissioning these things? Or do you have CGI artists like Shane Fu, who did the ZARA thing, just doing this for giggles? 

David Title: I think there's a mix.

I think we're certainly currently working with a handful of clients on, essentially, virtual, out-of-home campaign concepts. These are clients that would never have the budgets to do these things for real but do have the budgets to create the virtual version in a satisfying manner.

And it really allows them to express themselves in ways and to create experiences in ways that are new and exciting and get attention. 

Yeah. Does this stuff have a shelf life to it? And I guess what I'm wondering is right now, there's not that many of them increasing numbers certainly, but it's still pretty new. At some point, if you have a whole bunch of brands doing this, does it become an arms race where you somehow there have to be a little bit more outlandish? Otherwise, it's just like wallpaper, like other, more conventional digital signers displays and digital out of home displays.

David Title: I think, not unlike the anamorphic content, I think that it's partly a trend. When it's done really well, and if you're going to go with an anamorphic display, it really helps to have a good reason to be doing it beyond; I want it to look 3D, right?

And the best anamorphic pieces we've seen are really clever in the way that they take advantage of the illusion, and it's really satisfying, and I think that's gonna be the challenge. It's not so outlandish. I think it's gonna be cleverness and integration and in the same way that it would be true for any kind of real-world activation.

I don't think that Maybelline's gonna get the same pop out by putting lipstick on a Volkswagen after doing the mascara on the buses. But I think there's another channel they could explore to find another hit of attention.

Yeah. As some of the 3D displays that I've seen are just videos mainly, a watch, the face kind of escapes the screen a little bit, or somebody walks up and peers out over the edge of the screen down into the crowd or whatever, they're clever, but I really wonder how much impact they have.

David Title: Yeah. Honestly, I think with any of these anamorphic, you, on the one hand, you've gotta be losing a certain number of impressions because it simply doesn't make the impression, a valuable impression from a lot of angles. But it makes a really big impression from the right angle.

Which is a very narrow-angle typically. 

David Title: Although there are so many of these right now in New York, and I do think folks are beginning to understand how to make things that have a slightly better and wider viewing angle by just not pushing the 3D illusion quite as deep.

You can get away with it a little better, but obviously, a big hope for doing these 3D boards is that somebody is filming them and sharing them, or the client is doing that and getting that extra engagement through social media. I think, again, it loses its amazing value for just being seemingly 3D.

And now we're into the second wave of this, where it actually has to be smart, interesting, and relevant, and all the things that good marketing and good advertising have to be successful regardless of the channel that you're using. 

Yeah, I was over in Germany at a conference about a month and a half ago, and one of the presentations was from Ocean Outdoor, the UK Media firm.

They're in some other countries as well, and they were talking about 3D projects like that, and one of 'em was in a shopping mall in Denmark, and then I asked them, Specifically, did you guys shoot this and socialize it out of your own channels to make sure that you had a really good, perfectly positioned camera angle on this?

And you used that to amplify it because I wrote a piece about that one in particular. 'cause some consumers shot it from an off angle, and you could see how crappy it looked. 

David Title: Yeah. I remember when they first started popping up before I saw my first one in New York. I was literally on LinkedIn begging people who live nearby to shoot at any of those from an off-angle.

Just so people would understand. Not again; this is nothing. I think it's cool as hell. I really love that we make anamorphic content. I think it's really cool. I love optical illusions in general. We have a long history at Bravo of projection mapping, which is all about optical illusion.

Because I love triggering the brain without any magical technology. It's just the beauty of how our brains work in perspectives, and it's great. Super cool. But, it really matters for people who are looking to utilize any of these technologies. We're. Obviously, we're almost at the end here, so I'm not gonna mention the H word, 'Holograms.'

Oh, go ahead. 

David Title: Holograms. There aren't any, but It's important that people understand what the abilities and limitations of each of these platforms are so that you can utilize them to their best effect. They're all cool. Pepper's Ghost is cool, and Amorphic is cool. I think virtual digital out-of-home is cool, but it can all be terrible, really easy if it's not used right.

Yeah. Sometimes, the best application is not the one with the most whizz banger about it. It's just right for the environment, and I think of what you were talking about with projection mapping. I love jobs where the projection mapping is very subtle, and it just appears on a wall in an unexpected way, and it's not flashy or anything else.

It's just, oh, where'd that come from? It makes you look.

David Title: I think the whole notion in the video game world, there's this history of Easter eggs. These sorts of things are hidden within the game that are special if you look or if you stumble upon them, and I really think so.

Within the whole world of experiential marketing and out of home, those little moments of discovery can be so powerful and so meaningful, and I totally agree. The relevancy and meaningfulness and relationship to the environment and all those things are really what makes something effective.

It's not necessarily the biggest, loudest, flashiest thing. 

The stuff that was done for Coachtopia with this giant Rube Goldberg machine spitting out handbags off the side of the building. Is that a more viable way to do augmented reality? 'cause I've always wondered what percentage of the population is going to reliably view the outside world through their six-inch smartphone screen.

David Title: Yeah. Again, I think with a lot of the AR stuff in general, one of my favorite clients from back in the day, a woman named Bernadette Castro, used to just always ask me, no matter what we were gonna do for us.

She'd say, I don't know, David, is the juice worth the squeeze? And I love that, and I think about it all the time, and I think with AR, you're asking people to go through this extra step, and the juice has to be worth the squeeze, and again, if it reveals something that's interesting and meaningful and relevant and rewards you in some way for that participation, then I think people will do it.

But I think a lot of AR projects go largely unviewed. Because they're just not worth the lift. 

Yeah, and it's a little bit of eye candy that people look at and go. That was fun. But they'll give it 10 seconds, and that's it. 

David Title: Yeah. It's getting more viable.

Web AR is getting better, meaning that you're not downloading an app; you're not going through all that rigmarole. The other thing is you're still relying on available bandwidth wherever you're standing, and at least in the US, that can often not be enough.

And that's a larger issue with all the AR stuff and all of the digital extensions to outta home, is the cooler that experience wants to be, the more bandwidth it's going to require, and that's not always available. 

Last question. I'm curious if all this stuff that's been emerging is leading to new business because people come to you saying, we'd like to do this, and you have to tell 'em what they did at the Zara store isn't really possible because you need a door to get into the store. But does it open up new conversations and new opportunities? 

David Title: Oh, absolutely, and honestly, we spend so much of our time just educating, and for us, it's been really important from the beginning.

I don't sell any particular hardware, and I don't have stock in any particular platform. So, for us, being able to understand and communicate the opportunities with projection mapping versus LED versus LCD or the conversation I had yesterday with a client about the giant refrigerators.

I call them shower stalls.

David Title: Yeah. I just always think everyone looks; everyone has to be very cold. But I don't sell those directly. I think there's a place for all these things, but what we really love is to have that opportunity to share all of these cool opportunities that are out there and to really help our clients select the solution that's really gonna move the dials for them, that they need to move.

Yeah, figure out the problem as opposed to, how can I use this thing? 

David Title: Right. Because nobody cares what the thing is when they're having the experience. All they care about is the experience, and if you can do that experience with a $10 piece of something and it's powerful and meaningful, then you should do that, not do the $10,000 one, if it's not as good a fit. 

Yeah, a $200 Pico projector and not the $200,000 video wall. 

David Title: Again, there's a time and a place for all of these things, and it really is about understanding what you're trying to do first, like you said, and then finding the solutions that are out there.

All right, David, thank you. That was a lot of fun. 

David Title: Yeah. I really appreciate it. That was great.

Bernd Albl, Umdasch - The Store Makers

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

The Austrian firm Umdasch refers to itself as The Store Makers - designing, building and kitting out retail stores at scale both in Europe and globally.

About seven or eight years ago, the company looked at the shifting state of retail and realized that staying relevant meant adding digital to its toolset - a decision that's played out nicely for the business unit, which is part of a much bigger holding company that is a global leader in construction - from office towers to single family homes.

I first met Bernd Albl earlier this year at ISE, knowing almost nothing about Umdasch and not a whole lot more about what the company refers to as shop-fitting. But after this podcast chat, I now know a whole lot more about the company and more broadly about the expectations, challenges and demands of properly designing and equipping retail in 2023.

We get into a lot of things, including defining experience in retail. We also have an interesting discussion about sustainability in retail - particularly a shift from doing store refreshes every five to seven years, to 10 years and longer. That's driven mainly by demands to stop tossing out perfectly good wood, plastic and metal finishings to make way for new designs. One of the beauties of applying digital is its ability to refresh a store's look and feel by changing files, not hard materials.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Bernd, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me what Umdasch does and what it means by store makers? 

Bernd Albl: Okay, Dave. First of all, thanks for having me. Umdasch actually is a family-owned company within the History of Wealth brand for about 150 years. We are a shopfitting company, basically focused on the European market, and we are building stores in different areas, from fruit areas to grocery stores, the fashion industry, banks, automotive industry, all places.

We say we are businesses done, and we are around 2000 employees in our organization, and since around seven years, we established the business of digital retail because we saw that the business is completely shifting from the traditional millwork and handcraftmanship towards digital business and this is what Umdasch stands for, and our headquarters is in Austria, in Amstetten.

For people who don't know Austria like me, where would you locate it? Is it by Vienna or somewhere else? 

Bernd Albl: Probably most of you might know of Munich, Salzburg, or Vienna, and Amstetten is in the middle between Munich, Salzburg, and Vienna, around one and a half hours away from Vienna towards Germany, in that direction. 

Umdasch is quite a big company. I think I saw the turnover is 1.5 billion Euros.

Bernd Albl: So, this is when you're talking about the whole company. Umdasch is basically three company pillars. The biggest one is called Doka, which is a forworking company, and it is also established in the North American market. 

So, we always say that about every building is higher than 200 meters in the world is by 80% built by Umdasch Technology, and the second one is ours one, it's the Umdasch store makes its shopfitting business, and the youngest group is Ventures, where we invest venture capital for disruptive technologies in the field of construction and in the field of retail technology. And in total, yes, we are doing around 1.5 billion euros turnover. 

So you're pretty substantially backed in terms of your initiative. You're anything but a startup.. 

Bernd Albl: Yes, that's definitely right. 

When you say you are doing the build of stores, is that the build, including the whole actual physical building or when you're talking about store makers or shop fitters, you're talking about the interior?

Bernd Albl: It's a very good question. The value chain in projects in the past, we usually were focused on the interior design, on the production of interior installation of interior shop fitting. But as I mentioned, as we are a big company, we are also building those big buildings with our technology. So our supply chain is moving in the direction of a very early stage of building. When it's in the building phase where Umdasch comes in and that’s where we want to jump in and guide the customer from building to the interior, to the operating of the building as well as the stores.

So we are serving the customer of the whole supply chain and operating chain of buildings, basically not just focused on shop fitting. 

When you mentioned that the digital end of this was started about seven years ago. Was that the result of seeing an opportunity or because the retail industry and the requirements and ask of the retail customers was to incorporate this in there, so you had to add this?

Bernd Albl: Honestly, some years ago, we had very tough times in shop fitting. We had losses at the end of the year, and we have seen that with the rise of standard online shopping, we are faced with a very big shift of how customers are shopping in the future.

And this brought us in real trouble some years ago, and we were faced with the decision, what should we do? Should we run away, or should we jump into this new topic, integrate and develop our core business? And this is what we have done, and about it was eight years ago we sat together and said which technology should we start in terms of retail technology because there are so many technologies in the market, but what should be the first step for Umdasch which customers and retailers believe that we can deliver? And the second aspect was how we can handle the shift of parroting within our employees. Because some of them were afraid as they know that online shopping and digital technologies are our enemies and core business, and now we want to bring them into our core organization.

And therefore, we figured out two technologies at the beginning. The first was digital signage to replace a poster price screen, and the second one was electronic shelf labeling, it’s the price tag on the shelf. With those two technologies, we started the digital initiatives within the Umdasch group in terms of retail and where we started the shift of paradigm and the shift of the whole organization towards getting more and more digital,

That's not an easy shift to make for a more traditionally focused company. Is it? A lot of training, a lot of education. 

Bernd Albl: That's right. On the one hand, we have definitely shown our employees the chance we have. On the other hand, yes, we have to convince them and train them how to integrate screens. It sounds very simple when you say just implement a screen but honestly, mistakes in the implementation of hardware are still done. When you look through stores in the market, air circulation maintenance, possibilities and all those things and we are not focused on one single store project. We are focused on rollouts where we built thousands of stores and there you have to really exactly plan how you implement this. Because if you don't do this very carefully and you have any troubles, for example, with air circulation and you have snack work afterwards and you have to make changes then it costs a lot of money.

So therefore we have to create the knowledge of our technical designers when they are designing the furniture and the stores. And there are many other aspects where we teach them how to implement this and not just in terms of digital signage but also in terms of electronic shelf labeling, and I would say it's booming since Corona, where we have seen many of the big retail chains there, which are investing hundreds of millions of dollars and euros. For example, Walmart, as you might  know, had decided to implement electronic shelf labels in the North American market.

There is a few million hundred dollar project which is currently started. They have to exactly plan how to implement those simple little looking electronic shelf labels on the shelf edge. That it's not falling down, that it's not stolen, doesn't get broken et cetera, and that the appearance of the whole shelf is still working as soon as an electronic shelf labeling is put in front of the product on the shelf edge.

And there could be a real disconnect between building engineers and pure interior design teams with the technology that then has to go in. I've heard of and seen endless cases of why did they do that? And why didn't these folks talk to each other? So if you can keep that all within one business entity doing all that planning then you don't get those disconnects, right? 

Bernd Albl: Definitely, and this was one reason why we have merged different departments within Umdasch together where we have brought together, for example, in Duisburg in Germany, we have built it up a new office where we brought together all the interior designers together with our digital retail designers, where the digital storytelling comes together with the shop fitting design, storytelling i would say, that you definitely see the red line through the customer experience when it's designed. And this was one of the mistakes we also made in the past, that we separated those teams that we said, ’okay let's plan the store, and afterwards we plan the digital applications’.

But, we instantly saw that it's not working, because the harmony and the whole concept wasn't given, therefore it's very necessary that as soon as and in the very early stage of the project, both competencies in the organization are working on the project and start communicating instantly together with the customer to realize shop fitting journeys of the customer which are working. 

I don't know your business, but I assume for a more traditional shop fitting a company as part of a larger team that's doing any number of things, and you become a contractor to a larger project, whereas with this I'm getting the sense that you guys start right at the strategy stage and carry on through the project execution, and I'm wondering, do you also do aftercare, are you doing managed services where you're managing the digital signage component of the the retail network?

Bernd Albl: Definitely this is something you have to provide in terms of digital installation, as many other full service integrators we were serving in a very early stage from the concept until software development and installation. Also, operating means content creation, hosting onsite services et cetera. But, what we have seen in combination with shop fitting, we have seen that those competencies which we already have in terms of digital are asked in the future from shop fitters. That means that the retailer wants to have a single point of contact, the kind of support hotline for shop fitting topics.

If he needs other shelves, or if he needs when something's broken, or if he needs extra components. He doesn't want to contact different points within the organization. He wants to have one single point of contact, and we have also faced the topic of SLAs within shop fitting, so that we have to react within a certain period of time and fix the problem onsite.

Why? Because, the furniture which will be produced in the near future, will get smarter and sensors will be implemented. And as soon as you have technical and electronic components within the traditional shop fitting environment you need those services, maintenance and operating services for customers.

One easy topic is, for example, the cash desk. 

Right. When you're talking about sensors, that's something you could do right now, but is it a case of the sensor technology and the thinking behind all of that needs to just mature a bit more so that it's fully integrated as opposed to something you add on.

Bernd Albl: First of all, yes, some installations we are doing are stupid ones, which are not reacting based on sensors. Yes, we definitely see that trend on the market. The sensors will be unable to allow the retail to get more flexible, to get more target oriented to decrease the loss by improper communication to customers when it comes to digital signage, for example, where there is the combination of sensors when you use it for audience measurement and smart targeting.

And we have seen sensors, weight sensors, light sensors, out of shelf sensors, however in terms of loitering, in terms of queue management where we see that the different kinds of sensors are getting more and more popular. And everything that pays in for the retailer to optimize processes because all of them have stuff topics that they don't find the stuff they need on the shop floor, so we have to help them to optimize the process costs and reduce the effort for the staff they have on the shop floor. And the other thing is to increase the shop experience for the customer, and sensors will definitely be one of the hot topics for the near future, and this is why you are seeing when you look on the signage market or on other retail technology markets that camera sensors, optical sensors and the radar sensors are getting more and more required from integrators and asked by retailers for smart solutions.

And when you're using things like audience measurement technologies, whether it's camera base, radar base, whatever it may be. What are they looking to get out of that? Are they just trying to understand how the store works or are they trying to do almost personalized, one-to-one messaging to shoppers as they come within a quote unquote a strike zone. 

Bernd Albl: As I mentioned, one thing is definitely to optimize the one-to-one communication to the customer that you send the right message to the right customer. Let's say, if he is a male customer in the age between 25 and 35, that we play out the right playlist when he's looking on the screen first of all.

Therefore, optimizing the one-to-one communication to the customer, and the other thing is we are using the sensors for reducing process costs for the retailer. For example, one of the hot topics currently is off the shelf management or expired date management, this is something everybody's working on, how they can support the retailer to reduce those process costs for him.

And those are the most important two areas where sensors are currently asked for and audience measurement, for example, as I mentioned, there is one use case where you can use a sensor. 

Let's talk about some of the trends you're talking about. I was reading through some Umdasch material as well as some interviews, and one of the areas that was mentioned as a trend is individualization. What do you mean by that? 

Bernd Albl: We definitely see that many brands are closing their stores. Many are reducing the number of stores they have in the field, and they want to increase the customer experience when they're entering the store, and one big criteria is how to hold the customer as long as possible in the store and to increase his basket to create a high level of individualization for him. Individualization means that we show the right information to him to give in an atmosphere and ambient design where he feels convenient and also we compare a little bit when you go online shopping or when you go on websites due to cookies and other trackers, it's very easy to flexibly create the web information based on your requirements, and this is something the customer has used and is standard for him and this is in some kind we try to transform those flexibility of experience rooms to the real store. That means that we want to play out the right stores, that we send the right push notification on the mobile application for his checkout devices that we probably play the right sounds due to the audience which is inside the store, that the influence is light based on the outside ambient, and there are so many possibilities on the turntable. You can increase or decrease to create an more and more individualized experience for the shopper.

Right. You mentioned experience several times. How do you define experience in a retail environment? And I'm also curious how the retailers define that when it comes to applying digital. 

Bernd Albl: This is a very good question. Honestly, some of our retailers don't know it exactly by themselves and this is something when we are working on a concept, what we evaluate together and one starting point is definitely the brand itself, the values of the brand. The atmosphere that the brand wants to communicate, that they want to transport and what are the visions and what is the reason for the store? 

What is the offering of the store and what is the message of the store? And as soon as you have answered all those different questions, you can create the storytelling around that. At the end, this creates the experience and from the consulting, our experts are using the right materials, they're choosing the right colors and the right light atmosphere.

We bring in the right technologies, the right touch points as soon as we have defined together with the customer the right use cases. By the way, this is one of the big mistakes many retailers are making over the concepts. First of all, they're thinking how many screens to be installed? Where should we place a screen? But they don't think about the real use behind the benefit of the touchpoint, and this is the way we create digital touchpoints. First of all, we say what benefit we wanna create.

Then, we look at the area of the story which we want to offer and technology is the last point of the whole story. And all this together, is the key of success, and we call it already experienced stores to bring them alive. And I want to add one more thing is we always have to keep in mind when we create those stores that we have to think mid or long term in terms of operation. Most of our customers want to have the most fancy store possible, but we have to think what is in three years, what is in five years with the store.

We also have to keep in mind how we can run the store, how we can operate, how we can keep this level of experience up for the next year, not just for one year. And this is also a very important point when you start designing an experience store for retailers and customers. 

Yeah, they have to think about a five to seven-year creative budget, that's gonna be refreshed steadily, and they have to think about technology that's somewhat future-proofed and isn't gonna look old in five years. 

Bernd Albl: You're talking about five to seven years. Honestly in Europe, I don’t know what’s happening in North America and Canada.

We are faced with the topic that our stores have to last for the next 10 to 12 years, we are asked by the retailers. This is a very hot topic currently due to sustainability and ESG, that we have to develop stores that last much longer. So therefore, we as a shop fitter have to rethink our business model because it's definitely right what you're seeing, but in the past we have designed stores about every five to seven years at that time, and about 20 years in pharmacy stores. But in the near future, I think within the next three years we have to have concepts ready that enable us to realize concepts that are economically beneficial for a shop fitter to create stores that last more than 10 years. One of those things could be operating and digital services you provide and this is one of the big challenges for shop fitters in Europe they have currently faced and I think it's a very positive challenge because it has to be done.

And this has to primarily do with waste material at the end of that five to seven years that you're throwing out all the wooden cabinets, the metal work, the plastic and everything and refreshing the whole look of the store, and therefore you're filling a landfill site with all this old retail design material.

Bernd Albl: Exactly. All those topics you have mentioned are paying into this topic and the big challenges we have is, for example, Nike is one of our big customers in Europe. They're using used materials already, and we definitely see in the design process that the demand for used and refurbished materials is getting high. The quality is not there yet, what is expected by the retailer is that it lasts for a certain period of time. But the trend is definitely going in that direction, and that's the reason why we have implemented at the EuroShop this year, a sustainability database within our organization where we do a lot of research for refurbished materials, how long they last, how you can use them in shop fitting, and therefore we are currently investing a lot of money and time to create the knowledge you need and to fulfill this demand, which is definitely increasing over the next two to three years.

You mentioned Nike. And as one of your main clients, there seems to be two kinds of tracks in retail design lately when it comes to digital, there are stores like Nike's and other particularly athletic apparel kinds of retailers where they, as well as fast fashion, where the stores are just visually noisy. There's all this digital going on, and that’s it's very much digital forward, and then the other track, particularly in luxury retail is, it's very minimalistic where there's digital integrated in there, but it's definitely not in your face. It has a very distinct purpose and kind of blends in with the overall design. Is that what you're seeing?

Bernd Albl: Yes, this is something that we can underline. Unfortunately, we are not doing the digital installations for Nike. But this is definitely a goal that we are heading towards…

To calm them down?

Bernd Albl: I would say digital has a very major part of the storytelling of those stores. When you look at night towns, for example, it's for the whole experience, digital applications also enable the retailer to entertain a big number of customers on the shop floor.

When we come to luxury stores where you have a limited number of customers on the shop floor, at the same time, you're focused more and more on the one-to-one communication from staff to the customer. And, there is also much more to the product, the real product in the center of the storytelling.

And they're much more focused on the materials they're using for shop fitting. And the luxury feeling and being luxury doesn't mean to be digital. That's the reason why we don't see too many digital applications at luxury stores. They are more minimalized there, because the product is in the front and especially the staff is in the front. 

They're in there for the product, not just attracted by the shiny lights. 

Bernd Albl: That's right. 

What does digital represent for the shop fitting side of Umdasch’s business? I think I saw something saying, it used to be maybe 10%, but now it's roughly half.

Bernd Albl: No. I would laugh that it would be half. My boss always says, Bernd, you have to do at least 50% of our total turnover to be digital. Probably in the future. Yes. Definitely. This is something where we see the trend because digital services are also getting into traditional shop fitting applications.

Bernd Albl: Currently, we're doing around 10 to 15% of our total turnover number digitally. 

And are you primarily operating in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, or I assume that some customers take you all over the world with the projects. 

Bernd Albl: This is a strategy we have within the whole organization of Umdasch. With the shopfitting department we are doing business basically in the whole Europe, in the Middle East, in Turkey and in some areas of North Africa. And, we say in those areas where we are actively doing business. 

Last question. If I was traveling through Europe and asked you, okay, I'd love to see one of your stores where you've guided the project and deployed and is a reference case you can talk about. Where would you send me or somebody else to go look? 

Bernd Albl: When you fly over from Canada to Europe, I would say let's make a pit stop in London and go to Harrods. So, we are currently rebuilding Harrods back to its 1920s.

Oh, wow. Interesting. I'll be in London in mid-September, so I'll have to pop by Harrods. Take a Trip to Knightsbridge. 

Bernd Albl: Perfect. But give me a ring. I will come over there and let's go there together.

Alright Bernd. Thank you very much for spending the time with me.

Bernd Albl: Thanks for having me and all the best to Canada.

Bernd Hofstoetter, M-Cube

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Italy's M-Cube has quietly grown into one of the larger and more pervasive digital signage solutions providers on the planet - with deployments in more than 100 countries globally, across some 60,000 retail stores.

It does mainstream retail and QSR, but the sweet and lucrative spot for Milano-based M-Cube is servicing the needs of luxury brands - something both Italy and France seem to have as specialties.

M-Cube has grown both organically and through acquisitions, including the purchase of a French firm run by Bernd Hofstoetter, who is now M-Cube's Paris-based CEO.

In this podcast, you'll hear about how M-Cube operates in Europe and globally, industry trends (particularly in retail), and how it approaches and works with luxury brands in their bricks and mortar stores.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Bernd, thank you for joining me. Can you give me a rundown of what M-Cube is all about? I think there are a lot of North American listeners who probably aren't familiar with the company. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah, Dave, no problem. M-Cube is a company that has existed for over 20 years. We started 20 years ago out of Italy, with mainly audio solutions for retail, and five years later, over 15 years ago, we moved very fast and very strongly to the digital signage growing market, and we became, over the years, the leading provider in Italy, and then we bought different companies in Europe, and today in 2023, we claim to be one of the top in-store digital solution providers based in Europe, but with a global footprint delivering to over a hundred countries in 60,000 stores to 500 clients our digital solutions like audio, video, content, technology, and more and more as well omnichannel.

Would you describe what you do as a solutions provider or an integrator? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: More the first one. I would say that at the beginning, we were more an integrator and we became much more a full-service solution provider. 

We are moving more on the first part of the value chain, meaning the customer journey, and content development because technology is everywhere around and to fit the right solution, a good mix of the best content and the right technology, and of course, the power of deployment and service is the most important key success factor in this industry for the next 5 to 10 years.

Was it a case where the company saw the opportunity to expand its services, or they were being pushed in that direction anyways by customers? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah, that Dave is very often like that, the strategy you do afterward. So that means, of course, there were some global customers who were pushing us to deliver video solutions, so we moved to video. And as we have a lot of global customers, especially in luxury, we are, of course, a company that can deploy in over a hundred countries this kind of digital solutions in retail. 

Yes, it is pushed by the clients when you start, but of course, over the years, then it becomes a company where you add some parts where you are not so strong, so you buy from time to time some expertise from outside to complete your value chain. 

So you're one of those companies that were acquired by M-Cube. You're the CEO of another company in Belgium and France. How did that go? 

I'm curious because it strikes me as Europe is still regional. There are particular companies that are strong in Germany, Italy, France, or Spain, but they're not necessarily pan-European. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, I come from a company acquired by M-Cube, and we had the journey to integrate all the companies we bought to integrate in the last two years. Of course, there are still local champions in the German region or in the UK or in France, et cetera. But the tenders are becoming more and more European or even more and more global. 

I think if it continues like that, the pure local providers, they probably will have a bit more trouble in the next years to grab the business. We see more and more European-wide, or over several countries in Europe tenders.

And that's not easy, is it? Because of all the different languages and everything else. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, but we have now a position in every main important country in Europe. I'm not talking about little countries like Luxembourg but all main countries. Italy, Spain, France, Germany, UK, Netherlands, Belgium. We have a local team where we deliver local, but as well, European or global solutions. 

Your company works a lot with luxury retail. How important is that particular vertical market to you guys? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Of course, we have grown in luxury a lot. I think we understand luxury very well because this sector is extremely demanding, it's extremely global, it's extremely service oriented and there's still a lot to be done in the luxury sector, that’s what we see, so it is important. 

That's the reason as well why we moved more and more to the content side in the last years. I think we are very fit for this sector. 

And it's a very different sector to approach as well. Like me, I get a sense that luxury retail wants to be subtle and has a kind of a minimalist bend to the way they approach digital in their stores. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah, totally. They are not approaching it from the technology side. They are approaching it purely from the customer's side, that's what we love. That's what we know to do. It's a specific code, what we say in our business, specific code when it comes to luxury, it's a bit different world to address to, to talk to, to communicate to.

Because a lot of the luxury brands emanate from Italy and France, so have you experienced organic growth because a lot of those companies are there and they see what others are doing and come to you? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Of course, as we were strong or still strong in Italy and we have acquired a company in France we could have a good positioning, but we are now working as well with luxury companies, not only based in Italy or France. So our culture, our compensation, and our interpretation of the luxury challenges in terms of customer journey seems to be very appreciated, not only to the Italian-based or French-based luxury groups.

It would strike me, as an outsider, not spending enough time thinking about it, that the budgets that these kinds of retailers have are quite different from what you would have for let's say a fast fashion apparel retailer.

Is that a fair assessment or wrong? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: In the end, it comes to the return on investment. It is not about what we are thinking about whether it is the fast retailer having a lower budget or a luxury group. It's about return on investment at the end of the day. 

The solution we engineer, we design for our clients, they need to bring the expected return on investment in their stores or boutiques. 

No, I would not really say that a luxury retailer has double the budget of a fast retailer or whatever. It really depends, and at the end, it's the return on investment. 

It's interesting, with one of your main competitors, and I'm sure business friends as well, Trison based out of Spain, they work a lot with Inditex and there's a particular brand, Lefties that has stores that - I haven't been in one yet - but they look pretty wild in terms of the amount of digital in there.

Is that something that you're being asked about or is it, or would it be the opposite of how a luxury retailer would approach things? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: No, Lefties is, of course, an interesting case. I've been to one of the stores in Barcelona, Dave, and it's clear that in stores like that where you would expect a bit of digital, but when you see the level of digital investments in the store, of course, it's really amazing. But it shows one thing, screens everywhere. 

The generation who go shopping today to Lefties, they are grown up with screens, and there's no way back. I can give you a little anecdote on that. We had a client five to six years ago, and they deployed at that time 700 nits Window screens in 200 stores. 

After five years, the lady said, “Hey, Bernd, five to six years ago, we were the first. Now everybody has a Window screen, and much more, and the problem is that they are 2000 or 3000 nits. Ours look old-fashioned. I think we'll stop.” And I said of course you can stop, but you will not be recognized anymore. What is the story? They invested in the new generation, in the new technology with 4,000 nits screens. So there is no way back, and Lefties is one interesting case for that, Dave, that for me, there is no way back. Food retail is very active at that moment with screens. For example, we said years ago that food retail will likely not invest anymore. There's no way back. More and more screens everywhere. 

And what do you mean when you say there's no way back?

Bernd Hofstoetter: There's no way back to less digital. There's no way back. For us, it's clear that perhaps there will be fewer stores, but the investment per store in digital will grow over the years. We are totally sure of that. 

Yeah, I guess you have a digital native shopping crowd now that maybe you didn't have even 10 years ago because I can remember retailers screening out a store, like there were screens everywhere in a store, particularly for sports retailers, and then when they did a refresh, sometimes they would strip out a lot of those screens because they just realized it was so much noise. Have you experienced that at all? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: No. We have very few cases where the retailer has not integrated in the next version of his retail chain, of his concept, more screens. Very very few. I really need to think for a long time to find an example. I remember there was one or two in the last five years, but that's absolutely the exception. That's not the rule. Not at all.

What's been your experience with interactive retail? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: It’s not so easy to do interactive in retail. Then Covid wasn’t fair to the tech, so interactive was somewhat totally stopped, but it’s restarting. We see some projects in some specific markets, but it is not like what we imagined 10 years ago when everybody said everything will be interactive in the store.

Yeah, I've found that a lot of interactive efforts in stores just sit orphaned. They don't get used unless somebody encourages them to use it. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We think more about the interactive, for example, as omnichannel an solution to help the salesperson in the customer journey, so to upsell something in the store, but for the end customer, it is still not so easy to make use of these technologies. Yes, I totally agree with you, Dave. 

So for a salesperson, it's like assisted selling, this is a tool they can use?

Bernd Hofstoetter: Exactly. That's what we can offer.

When you go into engagements with a new client, let's say it's a luxury retailer that you're not yet working with, what are those first questions you guys are asking? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: The expected return on investment of a digital solution, because it does not make sense to make technology for technology. So the benefit of the technology, of the solution is the key for us. It's absolutely key. 

And do the clients have a sense of that? Because I've sat across the table from customers in my consulting days and asked them why, and in a lot of cases, they couldn't really quantify that. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: More and more. We have more and more technology to understand what could be the return on investment of a digital solution.

We always run proof of concepts or tests or pilots. But you are totally right. When I look back 10 years ago, it was like, oh, we need to have a screen. Today, this is really totally over. We hear questions like, “What is the objective?” “What is the return on investment expected?” “What do we really want to achieve?” And from there, it's the design of the solution and the integration of the technology into the customer journey. These are the most important points at the beginning of the discussions.

Are you marketing your own technology, or do you work with partners? Obviously, you would on the display side, but do you have your own software?

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, Dave, one of our DNA is to have our own platforms, audio and video platforms. Of course, if the customer says, I want to work with this non-proprietary platform, we can do that. But we prefer to run our service on our platforms where we have invested over the last 15 years now. We still have a lot of software development people in the company continuing to develop the platforms, hosting and maintaining, and evolving the platforms. Yes, it's one part of our DNA, our proprietary platforms. 

Are you typically, or most typically managing the networks for your retail clients?

Bernd Hofstoetter: We are more and more integrated into the networks of our clients. Monitoring is becoming very important. Of course, that was not so important years ago. That's now key. Proactive monitoring is very important. Reliability and security are becoming more common in the last two years in big tenders; the security level and tenders are only increasing, not decreasing, only increasing. The request for more security is increasing. That's clear as well. 

Yeah, I saw a comment from your president, Manlio that you were getting into some deals and replacing existing software vendors simply because you could offer the level of IT security they could not.

Bernd Hofstoetter: That's totally true. For example, one and a half years ago, we had a global deal where we replaced the existing provider and the main driver of this client was security level to enhance.

You're operating, as you said, in the north of a hundred countries. How do you manage all that, like do the deployment in places like China and India? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: In China, we have an operation. In Hong Kong, we have an operation. In North America, we do it with a partner. We have a network of installations. We have three hotlines in different time zones. So we cover our customers 24 hours, seven days a week. 

China is a bit of a mystery to a lot of people within digital signage just because it's such a huge market internally. How do you compete there?

Or is it more a case o,f you have European clients who are expanding into China with their luxury retail?

Bernd Hofstoetter: We do both. We help our customers from Europe to serve and support in China, but we have a local business development team as well. Yes, China is, of course, totally different in terms of competition, in terms of market environment, that's clear, but it's a huge market. We have been there for a couple of years now, and we are quite happy. 

When you're going into competitive situations in China, do you even know the names of the companies you're competing with? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: After some years, yes. In the end, we can identify the relevant set of competitors in China. 

Are they mostly domestic companies? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, mostly domestic. 

So you would never bump into in North American or European companies? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: No. 

For the technology, are you seeing trends in terms of what's interesting to your customers? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We see the combination of the online and offline world, which is not only a trend; it's a real demand from our clients to prolong the online journey into the store. So that's something where we are investing. We have a special team for that, and we upsell our clients with this kind of Omnichannel solution. This is one part. Then, of course, technology is becoming more and more powerful. Because you better integrate it into the customer journey. 

I would say that's the two main drivers for technology coming from our clients. 

So when you're talking about omnichannel it's this whole idea of retail media networks?

Bernd Hofstoetter: No, it is not the retail media. That's another subject we are looking at now. 

But it's about the clienteling, it’s about e-commerce in the store, this kind of application. The retail media, Dave, we discussed in Munich as well, is something that has been in Europe for years, and there is now a new dynamic of the retail media and of course, with our stores deployed, we have quite good positioning here on that.

Would you envision third-party advertising going into places like a luxury retail store? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: No, I don't think so. I think there are sectors where retail media in the store will not be applicable because there are retailers who want to manage the exclusivity of branding in their stores.

I was working before in the advertising industry. I know about this world. I don't see that even in five years in a luxury store there is advertising for automobiles or whatever, don't see that. 

And most of what you do is luxury brands for beauty, for timepieces, bags, all kinds of stuff like that. Do you deal with automotive as well? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, we have a team specialist in automotive. We had one year ago, a huge tender for a global rollout for a global automobile company. In automobiles, we are moving very fast. That's another sector where we still see a lot of business to be done. Telecom, we are strong as well. Food retail, we are reshaping it. Of course, fashion is a bit down in Europe. We had some bankruptcies in fashion chains. So fashion in Europe is not in a super shape. But automotive, yes, it’s a sector where we have acquired a lot of experience in the last three to four years now.

You've mentioned, or we've talked a lot about luxury, but you also have QSR clients, correct? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, we have in Italy QSR, we have in Germany, QSR. We have in Spain a bit of QSR in France as well. 

Those are very different meetings, I suspect. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Very different. QSR, the subject very often comes with franchisors, and there's a lot of franchise business out there for QSR, which is again another world. Not in terms of finances, but in terms of technology, technology is not a subject. The menu boards are not a problem at all. It is; it's not a challenge. It's more the contracting and invoicing part where you have to, where you have to work with many franchises or single sites one by one, which is a bit different.

Is your company and your development team looking at AI and how it can be applied to what you do? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We look to that, of course. I think everybody is looking at that. We have our ideas how AI could improve efficiency for us. 

I'm curious about North America. You mentioned that you have a business partner over here. Is the plan one day to establish an office here as well? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We are thinking about it. When you see our geographic footprint being in Europe and Asia, you could say, “Hey, M-Cube, why are you not covering the North American market?” It's something that we have to think about, sure, but we want to do it right. That's very important because America, of course, is a market in itself, and we want to make it right if we make it with a known and operated structure. 

Does it present a barrier at all that you don't have an office there, or can you talk about your partner? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: We do not have the feeling today that we do not get the global deals because we do not have our own office and team in America. So for us, It's not a downside. We see that if we move there, there might be a potential upside. 

It's a nice to have, but not a need to have. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Today, it's not the missing partin our business, but we see that the deals become more and more global and that it would really make sense of course to have a strong team in America.

I'm curious about marketing and getting your name out there. When you work with these incredible luxury brands, they tend to be very quiet and cautious, and I'm guessing that it's not often that they allow you to talk about your projects with them. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: That's totally right, Dave, unfortunately, but that's the price to pay. But to be clear, luxury is a very interesting and challenging world, and to be honest, we do not need to do our marketing for that because when people move from one brand to another, and they worked with us in Brand A and will work now in Brand B, it's the best advertising we can have.

Is there a store that you can talk about, that once people say what's your kind of showroom or the one that you send people to if you can? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: In Milano, we have several stores of several global luxury chains and retailers. When we do a store visit, we mainly do it in Montelliana in Milano, where you see the power of the M-Cube solutions life. 

So once you engage with a prospective client, then you can hopefully get them to Milan and show them around that way. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah.

You are based in Paris, correct? 

Bernd Hofstoetter: I'm based in Paris, yes. 

But you're back and forth all the time, I suspect.

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yeah, but I'm based in Paris today. 

It’s nice to have two cities like that to cycle between. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Yes, very nice cities. Paris and Milano. 

Alright, Bernd, thank you very much for spending some time with me. 

Bernd Hofstoetter: Thank you, Dave. Take care. 

Digital Signage Yearbook 2023

In this special episode, I chat with Balthasar Mayer and Antonia Hamberger of invidis Consulting, the Munich-based firm that has for many years produced an annual yearbook that takes a deep dive into the digital signage industry.

The new yearbook for 2023 is out, with versions in German and an international one in English that includes quite a bit of copy and input from Sixteen:Nine.

This podcast goes into the story behind the yearbook, its growth beyond first Germany and then Europe, and what readers will find in the 2023 version - which is some 200 pages of editorial (not advertorial) content, including regional market analyses.

The good news - it's a free download.

Loek Wermenbol, First Impression

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Things are changing - and both buyers and sellers are getting more knowledgeable about how to design and execute digital signage projects. But it's still nice to have a chat with an AV solutions company that resolutely insists on establishing the objectives behind a job before even talking about the technology that might get used. And how much of it.

The Dutch firm First Impression made its first impression with me when it kept getting recognized earlier this year at the global Digital Signage Awards, which were handed out back In February during ISE in Barcelona.

"Who are those guys?" I was asked.

"No idea," I replied.

But now I do know, because I met Loek Wermenbol, the company's Retail Strategy Director, at the recent Digital Signage Summit Europe in Munich. We found a relatively quite little area in the hotel lobby and had a great chat about the origins of First Impression - which is located down near Eindhoven. We talked about a lot of things, notably how it approaches engagements with clients, including the Dutch beauty brand Rituals.

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TRANSCRIPT

Tell me about First Impression. What do you guys do? 

Loek Wermenbol: We are First Impression, what we call on paper an AV integrator, as many companies over here …

But you're qualifying that.

Loek Wermenbol: No, maybe other people qualify us as an AV integrator in the market and we still are. 

They put you in that bucket, but there's more to it. 

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, there's definitely more to it and I think our proposition that we have is a little different than some of the other integrators in the market. First of all, strategy is a really important part of what we offer and we really try to help the customer to ask the right question, and sometimes that's needed in the process. Yes, they have knowledge, but most of the time, not all of the knowledge is needed to do really good integrations. 

Because in part, they're fixated on a display or something other that's captured their imagination.

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah. It can be technical or otherwise, if other departments are involved, information can be fragmented throughout the organization, and it might be hard to bring that together to form the right question, and sometimes there's just a lack of knowledge, and that's okay because it's a different field of play for a lot of retailers.

Yes, they have big online marketing teams, etc. But doing in-store communication, it's a little bit of marketing, it's a little bit of formula, it's a little bit of data, and that combines and is needed for a good integration. So if you help your customer determine what that right question is and where we actually can help them solve problems or help them with the threats they have in the market, or enlighten their opportunities. In the end, the ROI on what we do right and what we are going to install in a solution will be much better. So rather than just answer…

And it's gonna scale out as opposed to being one of.

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, of course, and we're in the scaling business too, but you have to scale the right solution rather than just a solution, and of course, we also integrate Windows screens and sometimes that is just step one. 

Right, but then they're a customer and can ask you for more.

Loek Wermenbol: Definitely, sometimes the challenge is bigger, sometimes they already have digital in place and need to replace us, or want to make the second step or the third step in the process, and sometimes it's the first step for retailers in the world of digitization on the retail floor.

And then the steps are different, but still, you have to focus on where you want to be in three or four years also as a retailer. I think at First Impression, we help them really well in defining those steps towards that in three to four years, and step one can be an easy step. Let's do a rollout of Windows screens because it is almost in the industry, a no-brainer in integration. 

Still, you have to do that correctly, with the right content, etc. There is a lot to talk about. You can talk for half or an hour about just Window screens, etc. But, that strategy part is you ask what do we do differently, it's just one part. By offering a more holistic service package to our customers. 

So it's a lot more than where do you want to put it, how many do you need, and when do you want it in? 

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah. Because if you're a supplier of hardware, you're just a supplier.

Yeah, you're not a business partner.

Loek Wermenbol: Exactly. If you are more on the strategic side and you are helping your customers achieve their business goals or to tackle their problems, you are on the strategic side, and you're a totally different person on the table. When it's from a strategic point of view, rather than just a hardware provider and the added value is much bigger, and otherwise, it's just about how fast can you do it, what's your price, etc. 

Yeah, so let's back up a little bit. Did the company start that way or did they realize that this is the customer house and this is how we should evolve, and how long has the company been around?

Loek Wermenbol: No, it definitely didn't start that way at all. The company started 26 years ago already, and it literally started…

In the time of CRTs. 

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, one of the owners who started the company was a DJ and into music and creating cool parties, literally starting from the basement of his parents as many of those beautiful stories go. And he bought some materials to make the show a little bit more attractive, more materials, and at one point, he had so much of materials that he could rent out some stuff. 

That's where the business began and that's where the First Impression began. So that was really more the rental side of the AV technology, and through the years that of course had evolved and after roughly six to seven years, fixed installation became a part of the organization, and basically everything turned around and it became a bigger part, until where it's now. 

Almost the only thing we do is that we still have a little department that does temporary projects but it's mainly fixed installations as it goes in the market. And we focus heavily on retail. Roughly 80% of what we do is retail, and the other part is Oracle experiences, which can be an experience center, , a business center, a museum, or a building that has an experience factor in it.

And you’re based in the Netherlands?

Loek Wermenbol: Yes.

Is that the primary market, or are you kinda across Europe?

Loek Wermenbol: It started of course out in the Netherlands as our home market but definitely not our only market. We have an office in the south of the Netherlands, our headquarters is in Tilburg. We have an office in Amsterdam but also recently, we opened offices in France, and also in Germany. But we're already operating globally, and doing installations all over the world and on every continent.

Is that because it starts with something more regional and as they say, can you also help us out with the store we're opening up in Shanghai?

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, and it really depends on the brand, for example, if you look at Rituals, those are big Dutch brands. 

What do they sell? 

Loek Wermenbol: All kinds of beauty products and everything you need as a woman to feel good.

So, nice high-margin products. 

Loek Wermenbol: Nice high-margin products. 

 They probably don't want to say that, but that's the reality.

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah. It's a really beautiful brand and it's actually a brand that a lot of trade retailers look at because they are there in the markets on lots of different levels and also in AV technology. 

And pardon the pun, for them, first impressions are, I suspect, really important.

Loek Wermenbol: They are, but actually there is a funny story because we really wanted that client in the beginning, but they were quite resilient against AV integrations because they thought it didn't resemble their brand because it's all about serenity and the body and the products, and if you look at their stores, you may figure out why, but we actually did two things.

One of them was to create a piece of content. It was really simple, but with a little bit of animation in it, in line with the branch values of Rituals, and the other thing we did, we made a breakdown of the comparison between the integration of a Windows screen, comparison with paper, and the number of replacements they did with paper. And that was a really interesting business case, and those two things together with the setup we created in our unique experience center in Tilburg, managed to get them over and finally convinced them to go into digital, with little steps. The first step is a window display, a cash desk display, the first thing most retailers will do. But now we evolved from that and actually, Rituals is the perfect client to work with because their teams now know how to operate in the equation together with us to get the best results and to do innovations that are unique in the market. 

And it's not just you going to them trying to sell them something new, like, “Hey we went to this trade show and we saw these new amazing displays. You should have some!”

Loek Wermenbol: No. Because then you're selling technique, and we never start with hardware. We always start with the right challenge and question. 

For instance, we created a unique piece for them that's all about perfume, and they didn't sell perfume for a long time because it's a hard category, lots of big competitors, high loyalty with brand loyalty with which potential customers look for themselves. There's always one fragrance that they've had for ages, so how do you convince people to switch? 

Yeah, completely foreign to me, but…

Loek Wermenbol: Maybe some listeners will recognize this.

But we created a really nice piece that not only looks beautiful but actually does the job of convincing people maybe to try one of the perfumes of Rituals, and in the end can convince them to replace a bottle that has been there for ages. Of course, if you look at that from an aesthetic point of view, it looks beautiful, but the magic is inside with how we use sensors and data to figure out which perfume fits the market. Actually, we were awarded that two times with the best digital innovation for retail in 2022. 

Yeah, I wasn't aware of your company, but if I remember correctly, at the Digital Signage Awards, your company won two or three awards.

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah. At the Digital Signage Awards, we won three and a recommendation. So we were getting back and forth to the pool. 

And I was like, who are those guys?

Loek Wermenbol: I know. I think we're a challenger in the market and sometimes it's good to be a challenger. I think one of the big advantages we have is we're still privately owned. So there's no private equity or something.

 How many people? 

Loek Wermenbol: Almost 200. 

Okay, that's a good size company in this industry. 

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, definitely, and did a turnover of 40 million euros last year. So that's quite a decent company to show it like that, and of course, you were there, last night, we were awarded as the rising star in the industry. I think that says a lot. 

We are noted in the market, not only by our colleagues and the industry itself, but also by retailers, of course, because we do something different and we try to help them with the total process of integrations, in a smart way that it also connects to the total customer journey because that physical space where we do the integrations in the end we’re a specialist in doing communications on the retail floor. We're more like an agency than a hardware integrator. We use the hardware components to make it possible, but in the end, it's part of a bigger thing. 

Yeah, I was going to ask about the creative side of it. Obviously, it didn't start with creative because you were doing DJ rentals and things like that, but did you add on in-house creative capability because external agencies, maybe the agencies of record for these different brands, didn't really get it, didn't understand it and was this a need, or did you just see it as another revenue stream?

Loek Wermenbol: No, definitely not the last one. In the end, you have to do that properly, and they will be additional revenue. 

But there's a skillset and insights that an agency isn't going to have. 

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah. We started roughly 10 or 11 years by hiring the first person that did content creation and mainly because we noted that we do a perfect installation, and then somebody comes along and puts on a piece of content and basically wrecks the solution because the most important part in communicating with the clients and addressing the purpose is that piece of content.

So if somebody's going to create it, who doesn't know how communication in-store devices works, ninety-nine out of a hundred times, it won't be the right piece of content. 

Yeah, and you talked about Rituals and the serenity idea or vibe, so to speak, and if you had third-party agencies who just drop something in, it would be visually jarring potentially.

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, and we did a lot of communication for them. We created, and we worked together because they have an in-house agency too. Rituals are kind of a different story in that way. So we helped them in the beginning and now they're creating a lot of the content themselves because they know how to do it and they have a really skilled team inside.

So that's how we work too. Sometimes we start off and create content first and show the internal agencies or people how to do it and otherwise in some other cases, we keep on creating the content for them. But it's so important because it is also for agencies that do generic commercials or socials, etc, creating content for this matter is totally different because there are so many factors that you have to think of. 

Dwell times, sight lines on and on.

Loek Wermenbol: Exactly. Position, lights, dwell time, passage time, angles, UXs, et cetera. Even the privacy of people, are we going to use a device when it's tilted or does it need to be flat, etc. It's all going to determine what your content looks like, and it is so important in the end to be successful with that solution and to have an ROI on that solution, and the content is a major part of that. 

There's been a lot of noise in the last, I would say, six months in particular around Retail Media networks, and I was interested, we were at this conference in Munich, and I've heard or spoken with a couple of people, it's all getting a little fuzzy to me after two days, talking about Retail media networks, incorporating third party advertising, programmatic advertising into a store, and that actually rattled me a little bit because it just didn't seem right. 

I understand the idea of endemic advertising for brands that sell in the store, but do I really want to see a T-Mobile ad in a Ritual store? I know they wouldn't do that, you know what I mean.

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, Retail Media is almost a buzz word right now, but we actually started operating our first Retail Media network for one of our clients already, I think, two or three years ago. 

And they've been around in some form for 25 years.

Loek Wermenbol: Yes, but in a serious form, it's not that long. And of course, retailers are starting to know that, “Hey I can create a valuable position over here,” and brands like it too, because if you do it correctly and which is important, then it will be an added value for everybody involved. It will be an added value for the advertiser because it's related to a product he can buy in the store…

…which encourages sales ideally. 

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, it encourage sales, and of course, it is interesting for the operating party of the Retail Media network too. For instance, we do a big supermarket chain called in the Netherlands called,  Jumbo and they have almost a thousand outlets. We operate there in a Retail Media network with them but there's always a keen balance between commercial messages and... 

It's a slippery slope. You don't want to feel like you're on a highway. 

Loek Wermenbol: Definitely, if it's too much, it won't work. That's one way of a Retail Media network. Related to products you can buy right in the store you are in or entering. The other one is we also have a big Retail Media network in Basic-Fit, and Basic-Fit is a large fitness chain in Europe with roughly 1400 outlets in Germany, France, and Spain, and they have a lot of screens inside too. 

Because of that, they have a special proposition, they're on the low end of the market and they want to be able to operate clubs with one person to keep that cost low, and to get a low entry fee. 

Hence the name! 

Loek Wermenbol: But the funny part is that if you enter the club, all the products are really good, and it's a really good training facility, but if you want to do so, you have to do a lot different, and it's a lot of digitization within those store from training that you can do in a digital way and activate yourselves through all kind of other stuff, but also communicating with your clients, giving them maybe messages to motivate them or any health advice, but also just to inform you that maybe the shower is broken in the ladies room, for instance. 

But those screens are roughly around seven to eight in each club and of course, are really interesting for Retail Media too, because the target group that is coming into a sports club is pretty defined. If you know the proposition is on the low end of the markets, then you have real good statistics on demographics, which people are coming in. So that's a perfect match, and a lot of advertisers, of course, are really interested in that target group and now have difficulty in reaching them, especially in the younger generation. So that's also Retail Media.

So is that real money to Basic-Fit or is it a rounding error? 

Loek Wermenbol: Oh, it's definitely real money. I can't talk about figures, but it's real money, and basically, they're operating in two ways in operating Retail Media networks.

The first part is direct sales. There's a team within the Basic-Fit commercial team from Retail Media that is in direct contact with big clients to sell time on the screens. But there will always be leftover inventory, and what we did, I think it's one and a half years ago, we connected software that is able to connect on the backend to the big marketplaces the media companies use to buy their ads.

Like the Vistas and so on?

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, and they can directly tap into the system and buy leftover inventory.

And you could put the parameters in so that it's not going to show a competitor on the screen with you?

Loek Wermenbol: Exactly. You can tailor it however you like. But it's a really good way of not getting rid of your inventory but basically sell out your inventory.

Of course, it's another price when you buy it in that way. It's going to be cheaper than direct sales. But in direct sales, you have the best spots and the best time slots, and maybe you want to only advertise in a certain area or maybe in a certain country, etc. So that's really interesting in Retail Media and it's going to evolve. We are going to see more spots within environments that show Retail Media, and you were mentioning, Dave it's strange when you see an ad for a wireless carrier or whatever in a retail store, and I think so too the market is really looking now, where are the edges of what we can and can't do, in approaching and maximizing our revenues from Retail Media, and on the other hand, not breaking down our brand. Because those go hand in hand. 

You spoke a little bit about the return on the investment of display and all the technology in a store. How is that being measured? Because I've seen companies who do audience measurement and retail measurement and so on, talking about conversion ratios and so on, and I'm always a little skeptical about how accurate they can be.

Loek Wermenbol: This is a really good point because this is not the same for every solution. It really depends. 

Of course, we love to measure everything because that gives us insight, gives us data, and will help us improve. But mostly, If you do an installation with a combination of techniques that actually can set up a kind of a funnel, for instance, where you can measure that there are so many people in front of my solution and making use of that solution, and of those people, so many people do step two, maybe go and pick a piece of clothing out of a wall of jeans. And we can measure that because we have counters in the ceiling, we also can measure how many of those people go into the fitting room and actually try on something, and if we know they're going into the fitting room, we can also measure if they come out and if they go to the cash desk, and if we do it like that, then we actually can create a funnel, and see what is happening, and not only see that happening but also tweak and improve. I mentioned the Rituals solution before, and I'm trying to visualize this in a verbal way. It's a beautiful piece of furniture with all the perfumes on it, and rather than having to spray the perfume off a piece of paper and smell it. In front of all those perfumes, there are little glass cones, and you can pick those up, and beneath is a little piece that we impregnated with the fragrance. So if you pick it up, you can smell it. And the important thing to know is if you pick it up, we measure your pickup, so we know how many pickups there are of that piece. 

So you've got some sort of sensor embedded in there? 

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, it's actually a light sensor that covers, and if you open it up, the content that is displayed when you pick up that specific color of glass, say I'm picking up perfume A, when I pick it up, on the display it will show the content of perfume A. But it's layered content, so the longer I have this piece in my hands, the other types of content will be displaced, like an information funnel, but it also gives you the information that a certain person is more interested in this piece than somebody that puts it immediately down because maybe they didn't like the fragrance and all that information gives us all that data, gives us information about that specific setup in that specific location because, of course, fragrances can differ in different areas, cities, countries, etc.

And it actually helps the divisional merchandisers to create a setup with the different perfumes on that piece of furniture that is matched perfectly with the audience they are serving at that point. Because we can use the pickup data, the content data, but also the data that is being generated by the cash desk, and if you combine those, then you have real information that will help. It's going to be more difficult if you want to measure the success of a window display because there are a lot of factors in place.  Why somebody will come in or not, or why it's busy in a high street or not, temperature or events… 

Yeah, you’d need some sort of a cookie on that person, otherwise, how do you track them?

Loek Wermenbol: Yeah, and then, of course, you have the tracking of people in general, and GDPR is a thing, so we have to take that into account in some cases.

Actually, we want to do really good management and measurements, and sometimes we can, but GDPR will limit us, and it's not only the effective GDPR, but it's also the perception of the user itself. It could be allowed by GDPR, but it is not received in a nice way by the customer because he feels monitored and on camera somewhere. So perception is really important to take into account, and if you use it, be open about it, and tell your customer about it.

Is it your software management platform, like in-house, or are you using a third party?

Loek Wermenbol: We actually do both. We have our software platform, and we keep on developing that, especially for certain clients with certain wishes. We tend to push the limits in the market, and often we look for things in software that just aren't available in the market. But on the other hand, there are really good products in the market too. So we connect with certain platforms to make use of that. 

 I was curious because at a conference like this and everywhere I go and everything I get in by email, there are so many software companies who state that retail is their key vertical, and what you've been describing, it strikes me as it would be very difficult for a very brand sensitive and brand forward store, retailer to just go with a software company because they really need and has benefit from all that front end advice and the simple poking at them to say, “okay, why do you wanna do this?” 

Loek Wermenbol: The software is relevant for the client only if he is going to operate it by themselves. 

Basically, which probably doesn't happen that much anymore.

Loek Wermenbol: No, of course, there's a little bit more to it. And that is because the interface and the user-friendliness of that product will be relevant. But if you look at the other way around, in the end, what's most important for the reader is whether will this be a successful integration in total, am I going to improve my customer journey, can I add more experience that is going to generate more sales for me? And it really doesn't matter what kind of software does the job. It really doesn't matter what kind of hardware does the job. That's almost a commodity. It needs to be good, and for the AV integrator, you need to have those four-letter words together. It's so important to keep those channels, have a good service proposition, and make sure those screens are always on 99.9% of the time, they sre energy saving, all that kind of stuff. 

But also in managing the content on the screen. It's important, but it's not the thing that matters most for the client and this industry tends to look more on the technology side and try to say to the clients that we have all of this. Yes, it's important, but if you're starting off with the wrong journey and the wrong question in the beginning, it really doesn't matter that you have really good stuff.

If you’re selling on features and specs, you're dead.

Last question, with retail, generally speaking, they want a business partner or service provider who's going to take them right from ideation all the way through managed services and run the network for them?

Loek Wermenbol: Yes and no. I say no because they don't always know that these kinds of offerings are available in the market, and if you don't know that, then you're not looking for it, and it's getting a little bit better. But we try to really focus on that holistic approach and offering, so that we can basically help our clients on every level. We have specialists on every level. We have 125 different types of roles within our company, if you think about it with roughly 200 people in the company, that’s huge. 

We have specialists for every occasion. So if it's about IT, we have specialists that can talk with the IT of the client. If it's about strategy, we have strategists that can do that. If it's about marketing or content strategy, we have those specialists. They don't need to use every offering in our total portfolio. But we offer it, and at least in the end, if they don't use it in our offering, we can talk with them on a high level about the specific topic then and help them anyway in that topic. I think that is really important as our business, especially retail, is transforming more in helping brands to communicate in the right way with the digital retail floor, and that's why I said it, and it sounds a little bit strange, it's more like an agency which is part of communication and knowing how to do that, and advising clients how to do that is super important. 

But we can only do that, and that's important, maybe last words, if we have everything really good lined up in the backend. We have super good people to make those integrations, super good technicians, and we can tell a beautiful story, but in the end, if we can deliver what we promise to our clients in our first talks, we're out of business. So that has to be perfect.

Francesco Ziliani, SpinetiX

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

The Swiss technology firm SpinetiX has evolved its go-to-market approach through the years - positioning itself much more as a software solutions firm than as a manufacturer of very nice media layout boxes ... that also came with software.

The company has end-point devices that have been operating flawlessly for years, but to grow and meet demands, it had to look at what it wanted to be and what it wanted to do.

Now, founder and longtime CEO Francesco Ziliani is talking in terms of SpinetiX being a SAAS software company, and happily showing how carefully selected partners - like Taiwan's iBase - are also now making hardware that works with the platform.

I met with Francesco down in Orlando, where the company had a stand at InfoComm and was also doing off-site meetings and demos with partners. We get into a lot of things, including where he's seeing a lot of market growth. As is the case more broadly, workplace communications is a big growth driver.

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TRANSCRIPT

We started out by my asking him about company priorities right now ...

Francesco Ziliani: Look, this year, the priority is to remind people that we are still hardware because we believe hardware is important, but software as a service is really what I believe is the right strategy, the right vision for us, and to make this model SaaS for an indirect sales channel work, because if you think about most of SaaS, they are a direct business.  Microsoft and Adobe sell direct; we do not. 

We have two levels, distributors and resellers. So to make this model work, you need active partners. So you don't need only an opportunist or someone who once has an opportunity and starts selling SpinetiX. You really need someone who says, I share the same vision. I like the product, and I keep learning it so I can bring more over time, and it's through that AV channel; only some are ready for this step. Many people like box-moving types of business, right? I buy something, I add the margin, I install and resell. So everything I can do to inspire resellers to ask themselves, is SaaS for digital signage, for my customers, and for me, interesting? Am I ready to explore it seriously? That's something there that can help SpinetiX. 

Yeah, the company has, in certain respects, pivoted, not really, but when I think about SpinetiX, I think about these gorgeous little boxes that are ultra-reliable, and you get the software with it, and now you are talking much more as a software company that has its own purpose-built boxes, and as you were telling me before we turned the microphone on, getting partners.

Francesco Ziliani: Yes. Our tagline is: We do everything except scrapes because it's true. We have the hardware. Now, we use partners to manufacture, but we co-design. We have the operating system, the DSOS, and the rendering engine all integrated, and that's also quite unique because, let's take BrightSign, for example, they have their operating system, but they allow others to install the rendering engine, and now you have two people responsible. BrightSign is upgrading the operative system, the CMS might not follow up or vice versa. The CMS needs to do something, and BrightSign is not there yet. 

In our work, that cannot happen. It's like Apple. We control everything. So every update is tested and comes with everything you need. That's why the reliability is so high. So that's also an advantage. Now this is still there. It's available on GP 400. Now we can also install the same DSOS on an SDM module. Sharp NEC is a partner now that we signed, and we are going to have a Sharp NEC display in the booth with the SDM. So that's integrated. 

What’s an SDM? 

Francesco Ziliani: Smart device module. So SDM and IBASE have the same philosophy. So now I'm not forced to manufacture myself. I can ask someone, you are good at manufacturing, you manufacture and install my operating system on it. So we work together. The operating system is very reliable, we cut everything useless for digital signage, so very compact, and then rendering engine with all the APIs, and so we basically make all these players like a zombie for SpinetiX., and as a zombie, they can talk with IO. 

They're zombies because it's a defined, tightly contained operating system. 

Francesco Ziliani: Absolutely. You cannot install any program on it. You cannot change it. Everything is locked. Yeah, and that is for security. You cannot jump on it and say, okay, now I install a program or install something else. This thing comes natively compatible with ARYA CMS. Aria is a highway of data to players. But when we work with banks, the player is within the bank's network. We talk to ARYA through http to know what to display and to get the instructions. But once the instructions are on the player, it locally talks with sensors, databases, and whatever services. So it's fully secure. Even if I cut the internet, the player has the capacity to get data around him autonomously on the local network.

So it's not streaming video; it's really like a CMS as an application. Easy to use, made for the end user, no training needed. That's the value of it, and every time you need to do something more complex, our partners use Elementi, which is our offering tool. They create the widget, customize it, and have a button to upload on the right ARYA account. With the button, ARYA has an additional asset, which can do whatever it has been designed for. So connecting to an SMTP or doing whatever. Now this set in ARYA is like a video, it's like an image, so it's a programmable element, so the end user cannot look inside. It's just there, but he can put it in a layout in a very simple way. So you understand that we make the end user autonomous with a tool that always remains simple, and we give our partners a tool that makes them able to program whatever they want, and now this is a combo. So we integrated this, so when you create a project with Elementi for using widgets, you know that you need to have an ARYA widget.

When you create a more complex project with Elementi, you need streaming—that system type of license in Element. We have the planning system in ARYA, so we simplify this combo with integration, and we can offer the right tool to the right audience. 

So if I'm an end user and I'm interested in this, I'm getting an IBASE box, and it's going to be connected and managed via ARYA. Is Elementi opt-in, or is it fundamental too?

Francesco Ziliani: It's an option. So let's see the path. You buy an IBASE, it comes with our operating system, and it comes with everything you need to connect on ARYA. The first step is ARYA Discovery which is free of charge. You can have one screen, you can have 1000 screens. You create your account, you pair your players, and your screens on your account and you can start publishing images and videos, and that's all free. You don't spend anything on the cloud right now. At a certain point, you get stuck because you need more users or more storage, or more functionalities, that’s when you need to upgrade to ARYA Enterprise. 

ARYA Enterprise is an indirect channel. So you need a SpinetiX partner. You need someone who knows how to set it up, and how to help you discover more. So you contact a partner and the partner comes to you and asks, “What do you want to do?” And if your needs are basic, you just upgrade to ARYA Enterprise by paying an annual fee. The partner will call you at the end of each year saying, “Is everything fine, do you need more?” Then let's say you need more, because you now understand that you are responsible for spending two hours per day updating images and all these images are already in your database, so you would like this to be automatic. So your ARYA Enterprise is now upgraded to ARYA Enterprise Widget and in the widget, you are compatible with Elementi widget projects. So it means that your supplier, your SpinetiX partner is designing for you with Elementi, which is the right tool, programs you, whatever you like, and once he has created that content shows you say, “Hey, is that what you want?” “Yes.” And with one click, it's in your account, and now as an end user, you can use that widget, and decide to show it in the lobby or in a certain location, with a certain background, with a clock or a countdown, whatever you like. But you are autonomous because that thing has been designed for you.

And like this, we value the services of our partner who is fully autonomous with Elementi. They don't need us. But we also protect the end customer, who can still ask them to do the job because they don't need to understand what's behind, and before, when we only had Elementi, it was not like this. We had Elementi, which was a complex product in the hands of an end user. So some end users love it. But most of the end user we're saying it's too complex. 

Yeah, I don't have time to learn this!

Francesco Ziliani: “I don't have the time, and I'm using it perhaps with my intern and the guy is not trained, so he's making mistakes and he is gonna leave.”

So ARYA is simple for that type of user, still we are not limiting the experience. Now what I want to fight is leveraging down. I want to leverage up, so that's why I am calling partners to say, “You cannot just sell ARYA Discovery for free or just our enterprise for an annual fee for basic features, you need to upsell your services, customize it.” Because if you don't do that, then the hundreds of CMS that will beat us one day. So instead, if I'm able to create this local relationship with the supplier, and the end user. Instead of being in a relationship, I supply once and I go away, I'm a partner with you, so I'm with you with the evolution of your needs, then I'm making my customers loyal, and that's the secret of SaaS, because every year you add something and we double every year the number of new things but if we lose the previous one, then it's like having a bucket that is leaking. So you add water but it's not growing. And I want to remove leaks, and to remove leaks, you need to create this loyalty, this relationship 

We're sitting in at InfoComm and historically the integration companies that come to InfoComm are looking for products and they're thinking about margin and how many of these can we move and everything else and, historically at least, it’s been a bit of a struggle to get a lot of these companies to understand, you also should be in service. There's recurring revenue in that. With shrinking margins and everything else, this is something you need to do. 

Is it hard to find those companies that understand that or that a lot of them are waking up to it?

Francesco Ziliani: There are many that are ready to do this, but it's true. AV is not IT yet. They are blending, converging, there are good things in both communities. But I think the opportunity AV has is great because they have the relationship with the end customer already, because they are selling services of support. So it's just a click in their mind, in their mindset, to say, “Hey, now, I'm not selling you a box, I'm selling you a service. I'm with you supporting, training, inspiring you”, and of course I understand that perhaps they tried solutions that were not reliable yet, or not delivering on their promises and it's true that if you are not protected on that side, you are in trouble, because you don't have actions to take. So you want a solution which is reliable, secure, and you want to build your services there, on top of that type of solution. 

But we see people that are, I'm not saying afraid, but they have an attitude of, let's see what's for me, and probably start one project after the other. I'm going to give an example of a company in Switzerland who started four years ago with ARYA with a few units at the beginning, few customers, they start calling existing customers they have, proposing the new model, and now it's a small company, but they already have more than a $100,000 in record revenue and now if you think like this, a hundred thousand means that you can have a part-time employee developing more, and the hardware is very reliable, so the end customer does not have reason to stop. The product is evolving, so you don't have reasons to look for competition and they’re running in parking lots, they’re running in schools, fulfilling different types of needs, and the solution works very well. They’re very happy, and I'm using them as an example to say, “Hey, you can start, even if you're a small company, there are local opportunities to you that might start with just one screen the first year, and then double, and then upgrading to more powerful plans and the solution is open, you can upgrade, you are not forced to stay three years, five years, every year. You can choose. So yeah I think it's a modern app approach to digital signage.

When I think about SpinetiX, historically, I think of these beautiful little boxes and the stories I hear about how they're still in the field 10 years later, 12 years later, and so on. So reliability, durability is a big thing. 

I'm sure that's still the case, but it’s not what you lead with anymore, right?

Francesco Ziliani: We want to do more. But by doing more, we are not forgetting where we are coming from and so the hardware remains reliable, the know-how is in the team. But I think, yeah, we would like to scale up a bit more. 

And is that the driver behind, like you've always manufactured or contract manufactured, or designed your own boxes, but now you're adding hardware partners, more partners. Is that just for scale? 

Francesco Ziliani: Scale is one reason. The second reason is that we live in a complex world where supply chain manufacturing, finding chips are a challenge for everyone. 

We learned many things in the past three years. 

Francesco Ziliani: Yeah, and despite the fact that we had a very good relationship, so we have been able to go through difficult times, I realize we are not in the position to guarantee right availability for whatever type of project. So we need to have Plans B, C, and all the work we have done on the Intel platform opens us to a lot of opportunities, and then if you think about it, we have a product we are launching, which has four outputs. So that's ideal for video walls. Four outputs, perfectly synchronized. You just plug in, you use it as a single screen from ARYA or from Elementi easily. 

So you could blend an 8k LED wall? 

Francesco Ziliani: More. It's four times 4k. So you could have 2x2 8k video walls if you want, or 1x4, or even just 1x2 and we can already do this with the synchronization feature of our players. That you only have one device, so it's more convenient in terms of price. One license, one device. What is the volume behind? I don't know. It may be a hundred units, a thousand units. If I'm manufacturing that device, I put myself in a niche of a niche. And there are people that are good at doing that. That may use the same product for other applications. So why not collaborate with them, helping them learn why we need POE in digital signage, right? Or why we are asking them for a higher capacity battery. So there are specificities in terms of synchronization, security that are of our industry, but I can share that with this supplier, and, at the end, we come with a product which they manufacture for us to fit the needs of our industry, from our perspective, of course. 

Now this, I think, it's the best we can do for our customers, offering them more options and not being limited on the investments that we can do ourselves.

Are you challenged at all to service the - I don't wanna say lower end of the market, but small to medium businesses, the kinds of end users who are maybe using an Amazon Fire Stick or a cheap Android player or something like that - can you even compete with that or is that not who you're after?

Francesco Ziliani: No, today, that's not our target, and we understand that there are customers that have really big constraints in terms of cost or budget. But we are really focused on long-term relationships with our partners. So we want devices and hardware and software that we can master. I don't want to find myself in a situation where I'm asking you one question and I don't know how to answer. Of course our support is best, but we cannot guarantee a result every time, but we want to have tools that we control. 

Now Intel Ecosystem has devices, which in terms of budget are much more accessible than our HMP 400, which is, inducer design made for wide range temperature, supporting POE. So we have been able to offer that flexibility to some of our projects. What I'm satisfied with is often the customer is challenging us on price, then I offer them the alternative, which is budget compatible, but they still buy the HMP at the end, because they realize that CapEx is important, but operating costs are also there, and if you have a product that is designed to live two, three years, it will fail statistically on that period, and customers are smart. They know where their money needs to go. If they have a long-term vision, they will buy more reliable devices. It's better for them. 

Has the end user profile changed much through the years? Are you seeing new vertical markets and new kinds of customers showing up? 

Francesco Ziliani: Yes, corporate and education are booming for us. We also see a lot of requests in manufacturing environments, and plants where basically you have a production line that uses screens to motivate the people working on the lines with videos. 

Shows KPIs, dashboards, etc.

Francesco Ziliani: Not only that, motivational videos are triggered by the KPIs they measure. So you don't have a sterile gauge or red-green level, right? You really have someone that is based on, is it Friday? Is it at the end of your turn, to understand the KPIs and give you the message that is relevant for you where you are. 

I think digital signage is a narrow term for us sometimes. I hope you can visit our new building in Switzerland. We have this corporate building where we rent spaces to different companies, and we have a lot of digital signage there from the parking lot to the roof. We really see the impact that digital signage has in a corporate environment to inspire people, to inform them about services, about what's going on where, before going home at five o'clock, six o'clock, we display the map of the traffic, so you can make a decision, should I take a drink before going with colleagues or is it the right time to leave? We have the timetables of trains, and buses appearing at the right time. Little things that make the user of the building achieve an easier life. That is growing a lot.  We sell a lot to military campuses like Fort Knox in the US and place like that. 

Yeah, I was about to ask about security. If you're doing Fort Knox, and you mentioned before I turned on the microphone that you're also doing NASA, so obviously, you're pretty solid on security. 

Francesco Ziliani: Yes. I think our team really designed products with security in mind, and that's a game changer, and it's challenging. Still, I think it's important because you put a lot of information, you put your credibility on the screens, on your network of screens. If someone is able to bypass your security, then you risk a lot in terms of image or terms of trouble, or continuity of service. It's really the customers we have that consider the investment as business critical, so security is definitely important, and then, GDPR in Europe is important, so everything related to how you protect your personal information and we have corporations that are asking us, what are the logs that we can access to know who has used the data, if the data remains in the cloud or not, where is it a store? Is it in Europe, in Germany, or in the US? So that means a lot of infrastructure work, a lot of tools that are only sometimes seen by the end customer if they're not interested, but a large corporation, know what they need. SSO (single sign-on) as well, these are all tools that facilitate a lot of the deployments and acceptance of our solution. 

You're European-based, have you seen shifts in terms of where the business is?

I've heard from some companies who've said Europe is going along okay, but the real growth is in North America. is that what you're experiencing as well?

Francesco Ziliani: Yeah, North America, I think we are just scratching the surface of opportunity. So today, we are, more or less, half in terms of our business. But I see a huge potential in the US. That's why we have invested in a team of three people. Before, we didn't have anyone. We only had distributors, but now we have three local people, and Europe is doing well. They are indeed asking themselves a lot of questions about the impact of power use for digital signage. But at the same time, they realize that. The benefits are there as well, right? So you need to inform people. You need to keep this communication channel open, and of course, it has a cost, but if you do it right, the benefits are higher. So I think we passed that period where everyone was saying, switch off because we need to save.  

I advocate if you use this tool to do the right communication, then the investments are worth, it because the impact is big, and in the end, you can change bad habits. I'm 16 years into digital signage, and I'm a believer in the benefits of digital signage for many, many sectors.

What you're talking about on the factory floors, I think the same thing could apply in healthcare environments as well, where there are just so many ways that you could be communicating with people, and these are people who either don't because of their job or don't have time because of how busy they are to sit down and read stuff, they're going to see stuff when they're zipping down a hallway or along a corridor, and if there's a screen there that's going to motivate them or inform them or tell them, “There's a gas leak, go that way, get out!” That has incredibly valuable. 

Francesco Ziliani: Absolutely, and it's true that hospitality in the large sense, whether in a hospital or a restaurant, in a hotel chain, or a campus, it's all about delivering relevant information, and our product, our solution, is made to automate. Of course, you need someone to know what to do, but the technology is there. And you can really take into account all the parameters. You can add artificial intelligence. You can imagine a world of possibilities, but it needs to be simple, and I remember we made an audit some time ago, and we were asking our customers what they think about Elementi, our software, and half of the customers said, it's the easiest software that we have been using, and the other half was saying it's the hardest software we have been using, and that is because basically, we were providing one tool to two audiences.

So simplicity is a relative concept. If you understand your audience, you are able to provide the right tool, then you are delivering a simple tool to them, but you cannot make something like programming simple for everyone. It's a lot of investment. 

I think having the capability with the solution to really segment the stakeholders and address their needs, that’s at the end, our innovation is that we are bringing with this integration with ARYA, and that's what I believe is going to be the future for our industry and many other people will contribute with dedicated software for specific verticals like business management, building management, right? You have dedicated software for restaurants, and all this is going to be simple for the right audience, and our job is to collect the data from this software, to make it simple to animate the network of screens so that the information is delivered in a relevant way. 

All right. Thank 

Francesco Ziliani: You're welcome.

Jeff Hastings, BrightSign

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

If you are going to the big InfoComm pro AV trade show, coming up very soon in Orlando, you'll undoubtedly see a very busy BrightSign stand, and a crowd around CEO Jeff Hastings.

I've spoken with Hastings a couple of times now for this podcast, but it had been a while ... and I wanted to catch up and get his perspective on the state of the industry, as well as find out what's new with his company and its little purple boxes.

The Silicon Valley company is pretty much its own category in terms of media players - as I hear and read about solutions providers weighing decisions on whether to use PCs, smart displays, set-top boxes ... or Brightsign boxes. The company now ships about 1,200 units a day - based on its reputation for having a range of durable, reliable devices that hit different price points and meet needs from simple to sophisticated and powerful.

In this chat, we get into the state of the digital signage market (It's growing across segments, but not at 2022's pace), how the characteristics of end-user buyers has changed, and the role of AI in BrightSign's business, and more broadly, for the industry.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Mr. Hastings, good to chat once again. We've done a couple of podcasts, but you're a big shooter in this industry. I need to talk to you regularly. 

Jeff Hastings: I don't know if you can call me a big shooter, but I'm definitely hooked on the world and live it seven days a week, but it's good to check in with you, Dave.

I'm just sucking up. I'm not sure why, but I am. 

So where is the industry these days? I'm just curious because when I talk to people, they will uniformly say everything is awesome. While you can say that too, you're different in that you're supplying stuff to all kinds of different companies, so maybe you get a better sense of what's really happening out there.

Jeff Hastings: Yeah, I think one of the things that we do that's a little bit different is that BrightSign is really a horizontal platform, as I call it, so we work in pretty much every vertical market that has a display that's used. So we see from the broad market what's going on. 

Last year was a great year of growth for us with over 20% growth. This year has honestly started off to be a little bit slow, and I think most people are reporting that. It's definitely been a little bit slow at the start of the year. I think a lot of things are going on with the interest rates and people being a little bit cautious about the recession, but overall, the industry is still growing. It's not growing as fast as I think most people predicted after last year. But it's a very solid market. We see more and more what people call digital transformations, I'm not a super fan of that word, but essentially it means people are putting in more digital signage and retail continues to be a great segment. People investing in retail to create better experiences after the whole pandemic of people wanting to get back out and people see the investment in that kind of real-world experience paying off. 

Yeah, I guess you could call it phygital. Another term that I would be happy if I never saw again.

Why do you think retail's growing? Is it just simply that they understand the whole experiential thing and that you have to do more in a store? 

Jeff Hastings: I think a few points. First, the whole idea that we're going to buy everything online and just stay in our house, I think most people realize, yeah, there's a lot of things that work that way, and I can just have it delivered. But the reality is we are social animals. We want to interact with people, and just being stuck in our house is not what we like to do, and I think most people are now seeing that with the results of the pandemic that, being stuck in your house is we’re not built for that. It's almost akin to being in jail. A lot of people comment on that. 

So getting out is important for us as humans and having that social experiment and getting out and shopping and actually being in retail, part of it is actually physically buying the goods, but a lot of it is social. People just wanna be out in the environment. So now that you take that as a fact that people wanna be out in the environment, if you create a place where it's exciting to be in, and there are other people that are there, guess what? More people's gonna come to your establishment. So we really believe that's the fundamental basis of why people are investing in retail. That's the main reason. 

If you look at a secondary reason. A lot of the big retailers, their businesses boomed. During the pandemic, a lot of people talked about how online boomed, but actually, a lot of the bigger retailers boomed and they got a lot of new customers. I think you look at folks like Walmart, lots of people come into the stores, but during the pandemic, they had a dramatic increase of people coming into their stores. As we start going back to the normal world, folks like Walmart wanna make sure that they keep those people coming to their stores. Back during the pandemic, maybe they were the only stores that were able to be open so they got new customers, and now what they wanna do is create an environment where they keep those new customers. So I think there's a lot of that going on of stepping up their game. Before it was just about price. “Okay, we'll just go there cuz it's got the best price.” Now people are like, “Hey, I wanna go there and I wanna enjoy my experience.” So that is playing into this investment in digital science and kind of digital experiences in retail. 

Are you getting a sense from all the companies that work with you, that they're starting to open up new verticals? I've wondered when healthcare was finally gonna start happening. 

Jeff Hastings: Oh all the verticals are growing. I don't know of any verticals that are not growing right now. They're all growing and some of them are growing faster. I think ironically, which I wouldn't have predicted, the corporate sector is actually growing very rapidly right now. I think people are coming back to the office, maybe not a hundred percent, but they are investing in it the same way that retail is investing in the experience. People are realizing that an office is no longer a place where they have to come work, much like in retail, where you have to go there to buy a product, but you want to get people in that environment for the social aspect of it and the collaboration aspect and if you create a nicer environment, more people come to work. So there's a lot of investment in that going on also. 

And how does that manifest itself, like what are they doing? Big-ass video walls in the lobby or is it more kind of the operational side of it?

Jeff Hastings: It's literally all aspects of it. One, they create an impressive environment. So lots of LEDs, and lots of video walls going into these places to create a more exciting environment versus just a bunch of cubes. Secondly, more communications which are just kind of standard displays, ways of communicating with employees and more, I don't like the word infotainment, but infotainment, where they've got interesting things, are displayed to communicate with employees, but it's also a bit fun. These are things of just celebrating employees. We see a lot of that going on and kind of recognize the employees' communication about what's going on in the company. 

This whole idea of an intranet I think most people realize that, guess what, when they have an intranet, no one actually goes to that website. So that was a great experiment. I think a lot of money on intranet sites which ended up being a massive failure, so the ability to communicate with employees is very important, and what they're finding is, guess what, if there's a display up there, and it's interesting, people will look at it and now you're getting across a message, and that could be whether it's a benefits program or you name it, you're able to communicate with employees and engage with them in a way, especially with the younger crowd, that the younger crowd doesn't want something kinda forced on them. They want to be able to kinda opt into it and the displays actually allow them to kind of opt-in in this passive fashion. 

Has the buyer profile changed at all? We were chatting at some trade show or other, and you were saying how your guys are spending a lot more time talking to IT people than perhaps they did in the past.

Jeff Hastings: It's very much changed. I would say when I look back 10 years ago, maybe 10% of the deals that we did involved the IT group. I would say today, any large deal, the IT group is involved with, and this has to do with understanding how they're gonna maintain them because it's now moved from whoever was wanting to “buy” the digital signage, whether it's the marketing group or the HR group, that they're quickly realizing that the IT group is gonna own these things in terms of making sure that they're working every day, not putting the content on them. 

So the IT group is now very much involved in that because they know they're gonna own them, so understanding what the cost of maintaining them is gonna be. And then secondly, security is just an enormous thing today. I mean pretty much every large deployment we do we go through large amounts of security reviews. The great thing for us is that it is kind of the backbone of our product is security, and we've built our own proprietary OS. We have put in the ability that the security is super high. Our devices are used on navy ships on the most secure network in the world. So it's a thing that actually benefits us, but just the interaction with the IT involvement, any large deployment goes through literally months of security review and if you can't pass that, it doesn't matter what the other organization from a content perspective wants to have, it'll never make it. 

When you're dealing with IT and IS people, when you say it's our own proprietary operating system, does that present a problem or are you able to say it's derivative of Linux or whatever, and it's fine?

Jeff Hastings: Yeah, so at first, a decade ago, we would say that, and it would just make the hair stand up on their back rise up. But now what they've realized is there are a lot of these devices really classified as IoT devices, and they now understand how they fit into the environment, and it's not oh my God, we can't maintain it unless it's a Windows device. It's interesting that they now are able to classify these devices as kind of IoT devices with proprietary operating systems and understand how to run them. It's also that the larger corporations have now figured out how to understand the cost of a classic kind of PC. Not that's what everyone uses them, but they now really understand that and most of the companies are now, they use a number of around $300 as the cost to just have a PC in the work environment. They now understand what a cost basis really is for maintaining these and for us, they're giving much lower numbers in terms of being able to have one of these on the network.

And a lot of it has to do with the ability of these devices, if you're using Windows or Mac, these things are constantly updated, and each time those operating systems get updated, there's a percent of things that fail, and those are support costs. With our device, we don't do that, so it actually saves them a lot of money operationally at the same time, keeping the security level high.

So what happens when you do have a firmware update? 

Jeff Hastings: So on our system, the first thing you can do is you can test those, and most of our customers do actually test those to make sure that they're not going to get a failure with their system. That's very different from something that gets shoved down the pipe automatically to maintain your security level. So by doing that, it's a very controlled rollout, and typically it's a very rare exception on our platform that something has to go out because a security fix came out immediately. A lot of it is just because of how our operating system is first cryptographically signed, and secondly, that people can't put random applications on our platform.

Those two things raised a security bar really high so that when you need an operating system update, a firmware update, you can be controlled about it, you can test it and roll it out, and that really is where a lot of the savings comes in, because most of these operating system updates, it's not that the actual operating system is causing problems, it's the whole ecosystem of applications that people use.

And one of those applications breaks, and guess what, they get hundreds of calls coming in to fix it. Each one of those has to be fixed and dealt with, and that's where kind of the burden of cost really comes up, and if you think about digital signage, 99% of those new features in the operating system are never, ever used in digital signage. In fact, most of them are actually being defeated. People don't want them. You don't want a desktop in digital signage. 

Yeah. Is digital signage with the people you're dealing with now or your business partners are dealing with now, are they seeing it as a mission-critical application now?

Jeff Hastings: It's definitely moving towards that. I wouldn't say it's completely there. Some of them are mission-critical. We have folks in the F1 world that use our devices and I will tell you, they view our devices as mission-critical. The Navy uses our devices. They view them as very mission-critical.

Some of the marketing folks, maybe they don't view them as mission critical. They view them as very valuable, and anytime there's downtime, it's important to them. I'd say it's moved from a place where people would be like, oh, displays always go down, and they don't worry about it either.

Hey, those things should be working all the time, and that plays to our advantage. 

Ten years ago when the first system-on-chip displays came out from Sony and Samsung and then LG and on, they weren't very powerful, they didn't do a hell of a lot. They could do the basics. They could show a menu, that sort of thing, but they've been around for a decade now. They're pretty powerful. I hear people saying they're pretty darn good. 

Do these smart commercial displays now present a challenge that perhaps they did in the past? And are you looking at embedded solutions? I know you already do that with Bluefin, and you did a little bit with NEC Sharp back in the day. 

Jeff Hastings: Yeah. So, the way I look at these is the range of devices that can create this experience. You can look at a $35 raspberry pie that's going to do a bunch of powerful things. So the whole content side of it, I really focus less on that. We have a whole range of players from simple to very complex with the new XC product, and it's interesting to look at the content, but what we see more and more from our customers is the ability to maintain these and control these because the long term cost is really what comes into play.

So it's becoming less and less about. “Oh, can this play this piece of content?” Because that's being more and more commoditized over time, and what we're seeing is, as we talked about, like the IT organization, the ability to maintain these, the sustainability. There's a lot in sustainability, what's the power consumption, what's the lifetime of a display? And one of the things that we actually see, which is a vulnerability in the built-in displays, is that their storage is fixed. It's soldered down on the motherboard, flash memory is a consumable, and it has a limited lifespan. So that's one of the things we're seeing with our players, you can replace that media with a display that has it soldered down. Once that memory wears out, which it does, then you have to throw away the whole display.

So that means that all of a sudden you're taking, instead of a tiny little SD card that weighs a few grams, now you're going to throw away a whole display that's going to go to a landfill. So we push a lot on sustainability. Clearly, in North America, it's a little bit behind Europe, but in Europe, that is a big deal of sustainability.

The bottom line is that the built-in definitely has some advantages. The operational ability to deploy it is simpler, but it's not the panacea. There are still lots of things out there. The manageability of it, the ability to update and control things remotely, and the ability to change the SD card when it wears out are very important. And I love to make jokes about that. If I bought a car that I couldn't change the tires when they wore out, I'd be really bummed to have to throw away my car because I can't replace the tires, and that's the same thing with flash memory. It's the same thing as a tire. It's going to wear out. You'd hate to throw away your car.

So with the Bluefin, I know they have a range of displays now, and they're not just little shelf-edge ones. They go up to, I think, 40-inch plus or something. In those cases, when you've got an embedded display that's got a BrightSign inside, is it swappable or upgradeable? 

Jeff Hastings: Yes. So there are a few things about those displays.

So the first is that it uses the same architecture. So we'll use an SD card as the storage mechanism so that you can do that. Secondly, it's actually slotted. You can open up that display and can actually replace the player. 

So it's like the Sharp NEC ones going back Five years or something?

Jeff Hastings: Exactly, and so we standardized on a different kind of connector to really make the form factor very small. So both the media is replaceable, and the player is replaceable. We've even had some customers already do that, upgrading their platform from an earlier one to their next-gen, and they're all backward compatible, so they'll fit into the same slot, and you get the newer performance.

So yeah, we see that, as a market there's a class of customers that want to see more and more people, and at every show, if you stop by, we have more and more people who are doing the BrightSign built-in, and you'll see that trend continue. You'll see it continue as more and more people realize that's a really good solution. The platform, the ecosystem, the upgradeability, and the remote management are really important, and they want to add that to their displays. 

And it's a little thing, but the simple fact that if you can put up a display in an hour instead of 90 minutes or something if you're doing a big rollout, it adds up.

Jeff Hastings: It does add up, and like I said there's the upfront and then the ongoing. So yeah, there are absolutely benefits to it, but you have to make sure that you don't end up with a car that you can't change the tires on.

What about Apple TVs? There are three or four companies, at least CMS software companies, who heavily market Apple TV as their solution.

Is that not a concern, but do you see it as real competition or almost like a novelty?

Jeff Hastings: I see it mostly as a novelty. It's on the border of a consumer kind of operating system. It's a little bit different. But still, you're dealing with many of the same things.

You're fighting the platform. Apple TV, Roku, and Amazon Fire, they're essentially all very similar. They're built for consumers. They're not built for commercial use, and what that means is that you're kind of fighting the platform. I routinely see people using the Roku TCL TVs, and they have their little digital signage application, and then when it reboots, it comes back to the home screen, and people are trying to beat that.

So if you look at large-scale deployments, that's where you get into this manageability and controllability, and those things are not optimized for that. It's not like I'm saying it, they're worthless. It's just in large deployments, it's difficult to deal with the little idiosyncratic consumer devices.

It's interesting when you talk about Roku because I don't think that many people know that BrightSign is, in effect, a spin-out of Roku, right? 

Jeff Hastings: Yeah, the BrightSign business was originally part of Roku, and in 2009, we spun out for them, and actually the core operating system is still very similar between the platforms, although we've taken it in the digital signage direction and added a lot of features and capabilities in digital signage and obviously the Roku guys have taken in their direction of streaming. But yeah, at the core of it, yeah, that's where the technology came from. 

Is there still any kind of sharing of ideas or anything between the companies, or are they very much different tracks and you share DNA but that's about it?

Jeff Hastings: It's really that we share DNA and that's about it. I'm still on the board of Roku, so I actively participate in their business, but yeah, there's no official sharing. But yeah, with me being on the board, we get kind of informal sharing. 

Yeah, I mean, you're sitting there actively listening and they say, we're developing this, and you're thinking, “Yeah, that's interesting. Maybe I could apply that.” 

Jeff Hastings: Yeah, and the same thing goes in the other direction. Some of the stuff that we work on is pretty interesting, as we do a lot of out-of-home advertising. Their model is built on a big advertising model in-home. So there are definitely things we share that also. 

You have high-end players that can go up to 8k. Are there customers using 8k or are they just buying those boxes with the idea of, okay, we're future-proofed?

Jeff Hastings: Yeah, the way I think about those players: 8k is a feature. It's not the only thing that you can buy those for.

Most of the people are not using 8k, and honestly, it's just a marketing thing because very few people actually use 8k. Most people buy them for the power of the experience. So very high-end experiences that people would've classically used PCs, for now, can get our device with the reliability of our operating system and maintainability, yet the power of a PC. So that's kind of what we see most people buy 8k for. The applications that we're seeing right now are kind in two sectors. One is people with consumer manufacturers of consumer TVs that wanna create an 8k experience that has all this interactive and all the great features they use. They're using our products and that, and then LEDs. So LEDs are probably the biggest area where we've seen the 8k as a single output. Those are very interesting cases because as the density of LEDs has come out and, folks like Nova Star now have 8k sending units, we can now plug in ak and instead of having multiple boxes of content rolling in, they can just have one big 8k pallet that they can split out to anywhere they want on the screen. That's a big market. 

Then the last segment that we see AK being used in is having content that spans over video walls. So if you think about a four-screen, 4k LED wall, right? 8k is perfect for that, and with the hiring unit, it's got four HDMI outputs. So you can just plug four TVs and adjust the bezel compensation, and now you've dramatically simplified having a video wall. So those are the areas we see people using our XC product which does 8k. 

I can't open an email list or go to any kind of technology site without seeing a couple of stories or a couple of pitches about AI.

How do you see AI fitting within what you guys do?

Jeff Hastings: o first, AI is super interesting, and especially with ChatGPT coming out, I think there are a lot of areas that you're going to see AI, at least in our world. So I see it as one, on the internal side, so helping our developers become more efficient. When you're writing software, there's a lot of what I would call mundane writing software that is done, whereas now, that can be automated. Actually, there's GitHub CoPilot that generates a lot of software inside Visual Studio for doing simple things.

Then using ChatGPT to do some of the basic frameworks that work really well. So those are tools that I can see, and maybe on the support side, being able to use AI to get a much better quality first-level support request. So I see those things as on the operational side of the business.

And then, when I look at the digital signage side, what are things that are going to be changing the world on the outside of digital signage? I think the biggest one that I see is content generation. I don't know if you've played with any of the tools on content generation. Let's be real. Many people need just kind of simple videos and imagery, and with these new content tools, you can tell it what you want. I was playing with one the other day and said, “Hey, I want an image with a hamburger in a retro look”, and it generates an image for me. If you think about what that would've cost to have a graphic designer, do that., I think the package I've paid for, it's 10 bucks a month. That one image would've probably cost a few hundred dollars for a graphic artist to do. So I think the content side is coming up there, and then the last part, which we're working on a little bit, it's still early, is for our integrators to be able to describe the experience they want and create a presentation out of it.

So that is one that I think is, it's the same way that you think about, giving our programmers and our software engineers a big head start, I think this is going to be the next step. So an integrator, instead of having to say, how do I use which tool to create this? They basically put this into an AI and say, here's what I want it to do, and it gives me the experience back. And at the simplest level, it's already working, which is, for doing some simple presentations, not that it's an enormous amount of work, it's just the learning curve. We've got it working where you can just tell it for a simple presentation, it'll put it together for you. So I think, and we're just at the early stages of AI, so I think it's going to have, over time, a profound impact on basically making digital signage easier and lower cost to do a lot of things. 

Yeah, I've been saying to people that, yeah, the generative AI stuff is cool, and the ability to generate images from prompts, as you were describing, is really interesting. But I think where this is really going to get used is behind the scenes for things like you were saying with coding, generating marketing materials, doing smarter monitoring, all that stuff that an end-user customer may never see, but is going to, as you say, make doing this business easier. 

Jeff Hastings: When you just look at it, all of these things lower the barrier to entry to having a deployment, which is just good for our industry, and I think the AI tools are just at the early stage of creating these experiences and content that just lowers the cost of doing it. So all of them are exciting for us. 

So you're going to be at Infocom, which by the time this runs will be imminent. It already is, but what are you going to be showing? I know you've got new players, new Series 5 players. 

Jeff Hastings: Yeah, we'll have the whole lineup of Series 5 players. They've been dribbling out since the end of the year. So yeah, we'll show the new XT5 for the first time in our booth, which will complete our whole Series 5 lineup. So all of them will be on display. 

We'll have more of the, as we talked about, BrightSign built-in displays in different form factors. Some interesting ones will be there. If anyone's out there, stop by our booth, the new XT product will be out there, and it will be exciting, and more of these built-in displays will be there. That kind of plays in that segment of the market. 

What's your booth number?

Jeff Hastings: I don't know our booth number.

I knew you wouldn't, but I had to ask. 

Jeff Hastings: Those things are not on the top of my list. We're in the digital signage section, and you'll see the power of purple being out there.

Just look for the crowd? 

Jeff Hastings: Exactly. 

All right. Thanks, Jeff. 

Jeff Hastings: Dave, thanks so much, and good chatting with you.

Mark Coxon, AVI-SPL’s Experience Technology Group

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

AVI-SPL is one of the largest pro AV integrators on the planet, but for the longest time, if I was asked if I knew anyone at that company specifically on the digital signage file, I'd say "Nope."

As far as I knew, and the same for a lot of people involved in digital signage, AVI-SPL was much more focused on traditional pro AV work like unified communications and control rooms. While AVI-SPL delivered some digital signage projects, it wasn't a real focus. But that started to change a few years ago when the Tampa-based company spun up a new business unit called the Experience Technology Group, or XTG. Now it has some 30 people working on projects driven by the impact of visuals, and directly involving other architects, designers and creative shops.

Now, that's 30 people in a company that has 3,700 other staff, but the group works with some 300 customer-facing sales people, and gets pulled in to opportunities and projects when clients start expressing interests or needs that are about more than just function, like whiteboards and conferencing systems.

I had a great, very thoughtful talk with Mark Coxon, an industry veteran who joined the company about a year ago and is one of XTG's business development directors. We get into both the science and emotional sides of experiential projects, and how these kinds of projects work when they're guided by ideas and desired outcomes, and not just the Wow Factor of big screens.

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TRANSCRIPT

Mark, what is your role at AVI-SPL? 

Mark Coxon: I am a business development director in our XTG division, which is our Experience Technology Group, so what I do is work with our regional account managers as well as our partner ecosystem to identify opportunities to build amazing experiences. 

So your regional people would come across an opportunity, let's say, it's a corporate workplace that says, “We want to put a big ass LED display in our lobby. We don't know what to do or what to put on or anything else. What do we do?” And your regional person might have a kind of deer-in-the-headlights sort of reaction and call you or somebody on your team and say, okay, I need help here.

Mark Coxon: Yeah. So a lot of our opportunities do arise within the regions themselves, right? Because AVI-SPL is a huge corporation. We have, I think, 300+ sellers out in the marketplace, across the world, talking to clients, managing accounts where they might do a lot more of the typical AV that you see out in the space: conference rooms and auditoriums, et cetera, and they'll come across customers saying, “Oh, I think we want to add a wow factor to this lobby” or “We're thinking about building an experience center to show off some of the new innovation that we came out with this year.” And so they'll engage our group, which is an overlay to the whole company, and bring us in, and we can really start to give, I guess, some form to that process and make sure they get what they want at the end of it. 

So you have a BizDev role, but it sounds like there's a fair amount of sales, engineering, and front-end consulting involved in it.

Mark Coxon: Yeah, it’s funny. AVI-SPL isn't really known in the market for experiential work, but we've done a lot of it. We've done a lot of it in pockets over the years for these customers, but it was never really organized under a division, and so that's why XTG exists. We've organized this portfolio of work in this division and assigned it to a team of people. We have about 30 people on our team now that overlay the country, and that team consists of people like me, business development directors, and we come from different backgrounds, some come from fabrication, some come from the consulting world, some like me come from all over the place within the industry from an integration perspective, and then we also have technologists on the team whose job is really exactly what you said to be those people who are thinking about the art of the possible.

“All right, this customer's asked for this outcome. They have these people coming to their building. They want them to feel this. They want this actionable insight out of the space.” And they're the ones who actually come up with the ideas on what kind of technology could we use to execute this and if we were to pull this off, what would it take for us to do that? And then they start to come up with rough sketches of what the technology would be to execute on that outcome. 

Yeah, it's interesting. Through the years, I've been asked who do you know over at AVI-SPL and I'll say nobody from the context of digital signage, and the company's been known as a very large company, and it’s very active. But doing more, if this is the right term, traditional AV work in the corporate workplace, that sort of thing, and as you said, pockets of activity in digital signage, but nothing organized.

So was it recognized within the company that we need to aggregate this and put ourselves forward as being directly in this as opposed to people discovering that, oh, you do that too?

Mark Coxon: Correct. XTG's definitely a targeted branding effort at consolidating this work and this expertise we have in things like executive briefing centers, museums, welcome centers, visitors centers, hall of fame experiences, et cetera, that we've done over the years for enterprise, higher-ed, and really creating some emphasis around that type of work that we do, for sure. 

Is there some cross-pollination happening when you do that? What I mean is, if you do some sort of immersive, experiential environment for a corporate workplace. Do they then two years later say, oh, by the way, we need new video conferencing capabilities or new meeting room signs, that sort of thing. Do you do that? 

Also, vice versa where you're already in there doing collaboration work, and they say, we want to do something in our lobby with Wow Factory. Can you do that? 

Mark Coxon: Yeah, obviously, we see both of those happen. Places where we're brought in maybe to do some specialty work, and of course, the other work at that point seems like more low-hanging fruit because it's work that we excel at already and have a huge portfolio of as far as auditoriums, meeting spaces, et cetera, and then, yeah, like you said, vice versa. We're coming in, and we're doing a lot of work, and you walk through this amazing lobby where people are going to come in their first experience before they come there to meet. 

So let's say somebody's bringing a customer into their building, and they're going to pitch a multimillion dollar sale with this customer that they have. How are they defining what that experience is gonna be within the building and just asking that question sometimes, who's doing this space? This looks like a customer-facing, marketing-driven space, and a lot of times they don't know that we do that work, and yeah, we stumble upon it that way as well. 

Do you guys go into prospective customers or existing customers pitching the idea of experiential spaces, or are you really operating off of their interest and initiative when they're saying we're interested in this?

I suspect it would be hard to pitch somebody saying, “You should have a big-ass LED video wall in your lobby.” 

Mark Coxon: Yeah. I call that technology in search of an application, and that's definitely not what we do. There's a great quote by Cedric Price, who was a mid-century architect, that says, “Technology is the answer, but what's the question?” And that's really what my job is within the team, and the business development team's job is (we have a few business development managers), but our job is really what are you trying to accomplish in this space? What business outcomes are you trying to achieve when you're looking at building this space?

We're in this weird mode, right? Where a lot of companies are re-evaluating what it means to have an office in general, what it means to have physical space, whether that be retail, we just saw Bed, Bath & Beyond looking at closing up and citing online competition as one of the reasons, so what does it mean to have place-based retail today? And if we are going to build a space, what should it be? And really starting at that level. So I try to start with that level with people all the time, even in the enterprise. 

The question isn't what do we do with the lease that we have or this space that we have? That's part, but that's the bridge. The real question is, if I had nothing, what would I build? And that's really the end goal of what you should be moving towards, and so many times we really start breaking down the problem of: what are the impacts that you hope to make by having a physical office or a physical retail location? And then how do we move backward from that into how does that now affect what we design into space, including the technology that will go into there? 

It's really reversing that. If we go in and just start telling people how cool it is to have an LED wall in their lobby, we're selling from the wrong perspective. But if somebody says, you know what, when people come in here, they come in here, and they sit, and they go into their phone. So they're waiting for a meeting. They come and sit in our lobby. They start looking at their phone, and suddenly they're stuck in their email. They're thinking about the seven things they have to do when they get back to the office, and they're already moving past our meeting. We want to create something that actually creates some anticipation, some foreshadowing that tilts them into the anticipation of the meeting they're about to have and not pull them out of our space and back into their workday. How do we accomplish that? 

And those types of conversations are much, much more fun to have and that could result at the end in having a 400-inch video while in the lobby, or it could result in maybe taking physical objects that the company's made if they're an aerospace company taking some of the innovations they have like rocket nozzles and things, and putting them on a shelf and letting people pick them up and play with them. And as they do, content launches, ambiently, around the room as they interface with these objects or whatever that happens to be. But really starting with who is here, why are they here? What are they interested in, and how do we engage them more? So that when they leave, they remember being here, and they actually take the actions we want them to take. So it's a much different approach than screens first, right? 

Yeah. As you might expect, I get bombarded with emails and pitches and everything else every day talking about different projects and capabilities of companies, and I see the words experience and immersive overused and abused quite a bit, and I'm curious how you define immersive and how experience is defined because I get a sense that there's this idea that experiential and immersive means that, you have to have a video wall that's got gesture recognition and you're going to wave your arms in front of it, and all these things are going to happen, or they're synchronized lighting, or God knows what. 

But from my point of view, there are times when an experience is just something that tells you if you're confused about which way to go, things like that, something that just makes the space better. 

Mark Coxon: A hundred percent. So it's funny that you mentioned that because although I'm on an experience team, I'm a big fan of the calm movement. How are we decreasing the technology we use for mundane tasks or throughout the day to create these analog, tactile, calm moments. I agree that the best definition of experience I've heard, and one I tried to adhere to was by Brian Solis. He used to be at Salesforce, I think he's now at Service Now, but he's written a lot of books on the experience economy.

And he said, an experience is an emotional reaction to a moment in time, and as you said, that doesn't have to be an overwhelming jaw-dropping experience. It could be a relief like you said, that now I know where to go, or it could be a silent pause that allows you to reflect. I think there are a lot of ways that you can create an experience for a company. 

For me, immersive just means that it's drawing the person in. It doesn't have to be all-encompassing. Are there ways to do that? Yeah. I've given, and I'm going to give a course this year at Infocom on creating the new connection center. I've given some talks before on utilizing biology to give a deeper connection to your message. So things like engaging peripheral vision work because more of your brain turns on when your fight or flight response is activated when your peripheral vision is being activated. And so are there ways that we can use, potentially waves of light to focus people inward on a screen or on a position in a room. Are there ways to draw people through space to a place where we want them to dwell? How do we create experiences where we don't, I guess, create congestion, right? Like putting a screen in the middle of a hallway, it could be a good idea as long as you're not encouraging people to stand there for 15 minutes, as long as the dwell time there is 15-20 seconds, et cetera. 

So I think experience is also just how people interact with the space themselves, and immersion is a combination of all of those things. So engaging more senses always creates more memory, but that doesn't have to be an active participation either. I think the things that are often overlooked in experience are opportunities to create, if it's a movement of air, if it's gentle waves, if it's mechanical movement in a ceiling, if it's an ambient soundscape that fills the space instead of white noise, all of these things can lend to experience, but they're nothing that somebody stops and focuses on. They're things that happen in the background that enhance what's going on, without the person experiencing it really focusing on it, if that makes sense. 

Yeah, I'm listening to that, and I'm wondering how the people on the other side of the table are responding to that. I suspect some of them are leaning forward and very interested, and other ones are going, that sounds expensive! 

Mark Coxon: You do get that. You can definitely get that, and I think that's why the co-design process is so important and not coming in with an idea of what you want to sell. Like earlier, you talked about me coming in and telling somebody why this experience is going to be important for them. Again, that's me pushing something upstream that I've got an idea about. 

I always say my best tool in a meeting is a blank piece of paper. Because if I sit down and really listen to what people do in this space, what they're trying to accomplish, all of those things, I'll pick up little notes. I had a customer the other day who, the architect, had put together a mood board of what this space wanted to feel and look like. They built a lot of these common spaces that they're talking about in architecture, We and Us spaces is what they're calling them where they're building these cafes with a lot of biophilia and wood and stone, and all of these things, and they're like we want to do sound masking in here, and you're like, okay, that's great. So obviously, you want to keep the sound from moving back and forth, but what you've really created here is almost an urban park or a community park type feel in this space so instead of just flooding this with white noise or paint noise, why not create a nature scape or something like that'll also keep the noise transfer down but really reinforce this idea that you're outside in this natural environment as opposed to the hush of a quiet office or the hush of a pink noise or white noise air chiller or something that a lot of times you put in a office space where maybe you're trying to focus on deep work and not on connection, right?

So it's just really listening to those things. When you start to identify those, when people start to, I guess self align with certain ideas as you're walking through what the different pieces are, they're more invested in that. Then when you come into that space where the cost comes, they really then weigh that against the impact as opposed to comparing it to what four speakers playing white noise would cost in the space.

Is it like that book about a village in terms of these kinds of projects where it's super important to have the architect involved, the engineers involved, all the different players who collaborate on a finished project as opposed to just the AV team coming in and executing this part of it?

Mark Coxon: A thousand percent. So many times, when we are brought in, what we end up doing and what I do with clients when they ask for an experience like this is one of the first things we want to do is almost a gap in overlaps kind of analysis with them. There is an ecosystem of partners that is necessary to create an experience. You're going to have somebody that's creating custom content. You may have two or three companies creating custom content. You may have to have a company specializing in video and live-action, live actors, et cetera, maybe somebody specializing in creating interactive user interfaces for touchscreens and all of those things. So you have these content creators. You do typically have somebody as an architect in this space that's obviously defining what the space looks like. Many times you have an experiential design firm doing the story, right? What's the strategy, what's the story? How are we walking people through this space? That's working with the marketing team in the company. Then you have custom fabricators building all this set work that the audiovisual goes into to create the look and feel that everybody has drawn down on the paper. 

So it does take a village, and many times that's part of what we do, is we educate what it is that players are involved in a successful experience. Who are the stakeholders that you have involved with now? Do we need to get more stakeholders involved? Many times it might come through IT because they see it as a technology buying exercise and you really find out that marketing and the C-suite and human resources need to be involved because this is a system that's meant to reconnect the employees of the company to the mission of what they're doing every single day in space. And now all of a sudden that becomes a much higher strategy-level conversation on how it's executed, and so it does take a village and it takes a great ecosystem of partners. I know that word's overused too. I've used it twice. 

But it takes this great array of partners, which is one of our core strengths is that we have a partnership manager that works specifically on making sure that we have a broad array of partners that we can introduce into these projects with our customers to make sure that none of these gaps are left untouched and that the experience we deliver at the end is not just a piece of technology installed on a wall because the technology itself, you don't get the value out of it when it's installed in the building, you extract the value out of the system. The ROI comes from the use of the system over time to drive the outcomes that you were looking for and thinking of this as a construction project where I delivered the 400-inch LED screen, so we're done, and the customer got what they paid for, they haven't actually extracted any value out of that piece of equipment yet. It's a depreciating asset until they play something on it that gets them the result that they want.

So we really try to focus on that instead of just our one part, and our, as I said earlier, we have our team. Our team, from a business development perspective, we walk through those things. Our technologists design the technology, but we also, when we take on a project, we have a program manager. And they're involved from the beginning, they listen to the intent, and just like in the programming phase of architecture, when you talk about what is the intent of the space and what are the ways that we're going to actually make some design decisions to facilitate that, the program manager really carries that spirit of the job and make sure that those partner handoffs, et cetera, are all going well and that everybody's involved in delivering the final result and so we built a process by which we deliver that, and we believe in it, so yeah, it does take a village for sure. 

What is the breadth of services? 

I'm thinking of one company much smaller than AVI-SPL, but they can do the full experience including metal fabrication and creative design, all that. So they can pretty much go from inception to delivery out of the same shop as opposed to using partners, but for a large company with a whole bunch of partners in play, how much do you want to own and how much do you want to cross-pollinate and work together on things?

Mark Coxon: We've doubled down on partnership when it comes to that. Our core strength is delivering technology. That's why our business was built, and that's what we do best, so we focus on the design and implementation of those technology systems, and for the other pieces, we partner. So you know, w don't build a lot of content. We do have a division called Video Link that does some content for video production for meetings, et cetera. 

But are we going to create computer animations for how our power plant works? No. We're going to bring in a partner that knows how to do that every day to do that. Are we going to define for the company what their story should be based on their seven customer personas? No, we're going to work with their marketing department, and if they need some help really coming up with a storyline, we're going to bring in one of our branding and creative strategy partners to help with that because that's what their core skill set is.

So we try to focus on what our operational excellence is, and that is delivering technology systems. But from the standpoint of the way that we approach the sales group, we're not engaging in a process that's designed to sell a particular technology. So it's the difference between focusing on what we're really good at and letting the cart dry the horse. I love the Maslow quote, “When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” We try not to approach this, well, we need to sell 600 extra square meters of LED this quarter so this customer will get a video wall. That's not the way that we approach this. 

We don't approach this from a technology-centric lens, but we know where we play well and what we deliver value in the market with, and that's the technology portion.  

I wrote recently about a company that was, maybe not pivoting, but evolving into doing AV as a service, with the argument being that a lot of end-user customers would rather just have the whole project done as an operating line item as opposed to all the upfront costs of capital, and they don't want to worry about recurring support and all that. They'd just rather pay a number and let somebody else do it. Is that something that comes up and that you offer? 

Mark Coxon: Yeah, it comes up all the time. I think customers are always looking for ways to understand how much of this you want to own from a content update perspective, from how you manage refreshes, from even how you buy a system, as you said. Is it an operational cost, or is it a capital expenditure? Is it a construction project, or is it an ongoing cost month over month? 

One place that we see this very specifically right now is we're doing some virtual production and XR opportunities for clients, especially in the corporate space where they're wanting to elevate their all-hands meetings or their product launches or any of those types of things. They're often already buying those services in an operational cost format where. They're going out and renting a studio, or they're hiring a production company to come in and do these meetings for them. So they don't want to take on a capital expenditure. They want that to continue to be an operational cost. So yeah, through things like creating a plan for leasing equipment by having a breadth of services onsite, like we have onsite managed services where we can embed an AVI-SPL employee in one of our businesses to run a center per se, or to run a virtual production studio for the customer so that they just come in, the stakeholders come in, they talk about the product they want to talk about, and somebody's running all the front house, back house doing the streaming out to the other participants, et cetera. 

Yeah, we offer all of that, and that's one of the great things about working with somebody like us is because we do have such a large footprint, we do have such a presence, we have 4,000 employees across the world, and we have onsite managed services available. We have the ability to buy things on the customer's behalf and lease them, et cetera. That's one of the great advantages of someone with a big footprint like us is we have the ability to do those things. 

What are the reference projects that you bring up? So you're sitting in a meeting, and they say, “What have you guys done? Impress me!” 

What do you come back with? 

Mark Coxon: Yeah. There are always a few that we show. The Museum of the Future in Dubai is an amazing project that we did, and people were like, you guys did that project? I'm like, yeah, we did that project and delivered it through our Dubai office, which is an amazing office. That team is, hands down, an awesome team. But we show projects like that because that's a space where people pretty much ride an elevator, like a space capsule, up into a space station and then come back to Earth in a future state, and the museum architecturally is beautiful, it's an oval with a hole in the middle of it. You even wonder how it suspends itself, as well as just all the different things that are in there. There's a touch interface where a half globe, a half spear actually swells up out of a flat table, and you can use it to articulate the earth. Who's ever seen an interface like that before? 

So obviously, there were some great creative partners involved in the content and in that fabrication. But that's obviously a showcase project that we talk about a lot, and then we have visitor centers and executive briefing centers. A lot of our executive briefing centers are very impressive, Honeywell and Charlotte is a beautiful center with everything from transparent LED to kiosks to volumetric displays with physical artifacts to a full four-wall cave immersion room with a touch interface in the middle to navigate through 3D environments.

And so we show a lot of those pieces. We try to show projects that have, I guess, a variety of execution styles because not everything needs to be a touchscreen. It's to show someone that you could have 3D printed objects on a table, and as you pick up those objects, the video changes, and as you articulate that object, you can actually affect different parts of the video to launch. Those kinds of things are really cool and just show people that it doesn't just have to be a touch screen on a wall. We're not looking to put a big black rectangle on the finish you spent six months working on with the architect. We're going to make sure that's integrated into the space in the proper way.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of subtlety and just little things like present sensors that cost a few bucks to incorporate into a design. But you walk within a certain range, and it changes what's on a screen, and “Oh, how'd that happen?” It's great, but it's not fancy, you're not issuing a press release about it. 

Mark Coxon: Yeah. We've been working on some projects where they're talking about using real-time location services as people walk through the building. So they get badged in, or they get a card, and that card has a profile that maybe they've entered in, and as they walk through the space, the experience is personalized slightly to them, based on their profile or using things like data generated art. Humans are great at pattern recognition, and so if you're putting audio/visual in a space that people work in every day, or people go into the office every day with these screens are in the background, you don't want them to be counting down 15 seconds to read and then 32 seconds until the screen goes blue with white text and then: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, cue the video of the kid running through the park. 

That almost becomes like water torture at some point, right? It's just the constant dripping of this repetitive content that goes on in the background. So how do we use things like occupancy sensors, and time of day weather outside, all of which create effects on these screens that are more ambient in times that they're not being actively used for customer communication or employee communication? 

A lot of those things are really cool. So what you said, that subtlety, and really thinking of just the different moments. These are canvases that we can use for multiple things. Sometimes they need to be quiet and soothing for people to do their work. Other times they need to be loud and inspiring to get somebody's attention and be able to design something that does that and know who to partner with on the backend from a hardware perspective for something like a content management system that can be on a schedule or can use sensor-based inputs to trigger different modes is really important.

Are you sensing or seeing any kind of a shift in the marketplace in terms of rising interest in a particular thing? 

I know you mentioned experience centers, but those have been around for a while, that's an area where I get a sense because of the pandemic and everything, they're elevating in importance because you don't have as many people in the offices.

Mark Coxon: Yeah, I think experience centers are becoming more and more prominent. Companies are seeing if they can bring their customers in and create a memorable, relevant experience around their value story, that pays dividends for them.

I think we're seeing more and more interest, as I said, in virtual and extended reality, virtual production, and extended reality stages for elevating corporate communications. Suppose every single one of your communications goes out in 16 squares on a VTC call. How do you punctuate those meetings so that the important ones are elevated and look different, feel different, and actually engage people differently? We're seeing more and more of that. 

I will say, honestly, the big push is this: The challenge of physical space in a world that becomes more and more online, we have to get away from the idea of just utility because utility is going to be provided more conveniently, virtually. I can easily join a meeting from my kitchen table. I can easily buy a pair of pants on Amazon. So if we're just looking for the utility of work or the utility of shopping or whatever that place is built to do, if we're focusing on utility, we're always going to lose to the online experience because it's more convenient and the utility is the same. So we really have to focus on the personal experience.

Gensler did an experience index on public space a few years back, pre-pandemic, but people are in multiple modes when they go shopping, right? People are in the task-based mode of finding something to buy, but they're also in a mode of exploration. They're in a mode of connection. They're in a mode of aspiration. Who do I want to be? What do I want to be? I want to be inspired. They're looking for cultural connection. There are all these other motivations at play, and it's the same when people come to interact in an office, when they join their team, when they go to a movie theater versus watching something on Netflix. There's a reason the movie theaters haven't died. It feels different to watch a movie in a movie theater, not just because of the scale of the screen or the audio, but because it feels different being in a room, having a shared experience with other people, hearing their reaction to something, hearing when they go silent, when they laugh and when they cheer.

Those are things that we can really build an experience around, and I always say technology has advanced to a space where technology is usually not the limiting factor, so technology's no longer a huge challenge, space isn't a huge challenge, to design a space or to be able to build a space that facilitates these things. So really, now we are in the challenge of getting somebody back to the office, getting somebody in a mall, it is a human-centric problem. That's a human-centric exercise, and if we don't start with experience design that addresses the human motivation of why they would go somewhere, and we just address the utility of how big a store need to be and how big a screen need to be for somebody to read the text? We're never going to solve a human-based problem on why space is relevant, and so I think companies and customers are starting to see this more and more if we can start talking about: what is the human experience, and then how do we use space and technology to facilitate that? It's just a different way to solve the problem. 

We have to flip the model in its head. We can't start with a square building, add technology, and then hope people come and use it in the way that we designed it. That's not experience design. 

All right, Mark, thank you very much—very interesting chat. 

Mark Coxon: Hey, thank you, Dave. I appreciate it.

 

Sean McCaffrey, GSTV

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

In the early years of digital signage networks - particularly those that were ad-based - operators would often describe how their medium was captive. The proposition was that people stuck doing something - usually waiting - would pass their time looking at a screen.

Then smartphones came along, and there went that notion. Except in places like gas stations, where people still needed to be somewhat focused on the task. A company called GSTV has been running a digital signage channel on the screens of fuel dispensers for almost two decades, and is deployed at more than 25,000 locations.

The company dominates its category, and the mix of programming on the pump screens has 100 million unique viewers.

The pitch to planners is far more sophisticated these days than the captive audience thing - something very obvious in this talk with CEO Sean McCaffrey, who gets into a lot of detail about the benefits for consumer brands and for the gas station and C-store operators who work with GSTV.

Subscribe from wherever you pick up new podcasts.

TRANSCRIPT

Sean, thank you for joining me. It's almost weird to think about, but your company and your medium is actually a pretty mature medium now. 

Sean McCaffrey: It is. I still look at it as very new. I've been with the business for five and a half years, and when I describe it to people at a backyard barbecue, and they ask what I do, I say: I run a six-year-old startup that happened and have a one-year proof of concept. So to your point, we've been around for 15+ years as a sector, if you will. 

For people who maybe don't live in the United States, describe what it is that goes on. 

Sean McCaffrey: Yeah, no problem. So GSTV  is a national digital video platform in 205 US markets. Out of 210, we reach about 50% percent of US adults every month, about 116m monthly unique viewers, and we connect with consumers three to five minutes at a time, three to five times a month when they're fueling up their vehicle. So think about it as a very habitual serialized engagement week in and week out when someone stops to fuel up as they're running errands on a road trip, on their way to the ballgame on a Saturday, that sort of thing, and we partner with the fuel and convenience retailers in the US to put in this amenity, provide information, entertainment, that sort of thing, and focus on building value for brands, agencies, retailers, and consumers, and we work with a variety of large chains, small chains middle market, kind of everything in between.

And the nut of it is you've got a screen embedded in the fuel dispenser. 

Sean McCaffrey: Correct. Our screens come embedded in the fuel equipment, which is a long-term hardware purchase decision for fuel retailers. The retailers get it as an amenity, and they get a small amount of promotional time within our show. There are shared economics amongst the parties obviously as well, and then we build a consumer experience that provides value to the retailers, value to consumers, and then brands and agencies can integrate in any number of ways. The way we look at it is we program a show every day. Every station is like an addressable household. The household has more family members, so we could have tens of thousands of different versions of the show on any given day, depending on what content and what advertising is running. 

Now, we don't go probably down to that level of customization just based on how brands use it. But think about urban, suburban, weekday, weekend, all those lake and beach communities, let's say all summer long, that is a very different population from Thursday to Sunday, let's say in July versus January. So lots of ways to customize the entertainment, content, commercials, advertising, and so on.

I have a bit of a past with this stuff going back to the early to mid 2000s when there was a Canadian company also looking at this, and at that time it was extraordinarily challenging to put a piece of electronics on a fuel dispenser that's sitting on top of a reservoir of thousands of gallons of flammable liquid. It was a little nerve-wracking. 

Is it now a standard piece of kit, so to speak, for the fuel dispenser manufacturers like the Gilbarcos of the world?

Sean McCaffrey: It is, and you're right, that era in the early to mid two 2000s, not just in our space, but really in broader digital signage or digital outta home, if you will, in general.

There was a lot bigger hardware literally and figuratively, hardware and software challenges to solve. Now, they're not done today, but all of this has come a long way. So for our business today, yes, it's a very standard part of what our great partners at Dover and Gilbarco both produce. The retailer can make a choice on the equipment that they want to buy and everything comes kitted out for them. There's an upgrade opportunity if they have equipment already. There's a new equipment purchase opportunity, so there are obviously several different SKUs of hardware products they can buy, and then it's all IP addressable, and all enabled that our team runs. And we have a network operating center that it's all built on and enabled programmatically in terms of scheduling as well. 

So it's really come a long way. Anyone that is involved in digital signage or the digital out-of-home space knows that mid two 2000s era, call it 15-20 years ago, there were lots and lots of networks trying to put signage out there in hopes of I think advertising would follow. A lot of it was probably a solution in search of a problem, as they say, and today, we're very focused on our place in the value proposition, so to speak. So our retail partners really care about that 20-foot consumer journey. Someone fueling up and then going in the store and buying anything. The hardware partners, they want a great product and to be able to offer this as an amenity, and then for consumers, our time is precious today While it's not a channel selection, you're not gonna binge watch hours and hours of our programming, let's say, in the way you might Netflix or Peacock. It is an opportunity to provide value to consumers, entertainment information, and that sort of thing. So come a long way in all regards, I think, and not just hardware. 

And so you can retrofit an existing fuel dispenser, right? 

Sean McCaffrey: They're some of the old SKUs of hardware, not necessarily, but yes, for the most part, it's generally an upgrade available. 

And is that something you put on top of it, or you replace the screen that's in there? 

Sean McCaffrey: It replaces the equipment that’s already in there. One of the reasons that the businesses came together in a joint venture in early 2017 was first of all to provide some scale in the space. But second, there was a push from the credit card companies for a payment processing upgrade. So the EMV technology Europay, MasterCard, Visa. There was a requirement from the credit card companies that all the fuel and convenience retailers in the US had to upgrade their credit card technology. So that was an obvious time then for every retailer to decide on a larger upgrade cycle what they wanted to do, and many of them chose to augment it with screens that they didn't have previously. 

So this is not a build it and they will come thing at all where you're incurring the capital cost to put this in, it's the fuel retailer? 

Sean McCaffrey: Correct. That was the earlier generation of the business where some of the predecessor companies you probably know, or the company that you mentioned where there were screens that sat on top of the fuel dispensers of various sizes, and you then incurred every challenge you have beyond CapEx, just the installation, the maintenance, that sort of thing. These are all dispenser-integrated units. So the CapEx is built into the economics amongst the various parties. 

And is the primary motivation to get people into the convenience store, because most few retailers these days seem to have a retail store associated with it, or is it the revenue share that they might see out of it or they do see out of it?

Sean McCaffrey: It's primarily to drive people into the stores. A couple of percentage points of growth in soda and snack sales is I think a lot more interesting to most than the advertising revenue. 

That's not to say the advertising revenue is not substantial or interesting, but there's lots and lots of data that the industry publishes every year here in the US about the volume of consumers that fuel up and just drive away, don't go in store, the volume that does go in store and what they purchase, and so any opportunity to drive sales in-store and raise basket size once somebody is in the store, for example, it gets you to buy a snack instead of just a soda, get you to buy a snack and a soda and a lottery ticket, you name it, is useful, and there's a great deal of sophistication in the space as well. 

I think most consumers in the US are familiar with the largest brands, the 7-Elevens, the Circle Ks, and that sort of thing. But there are a number of what I'll call major and mid-major regional chains anywhere from 800 to 1000 stores down to maybe 50 to 100 stores where they've got a loyalty app, they've got a promotional program, so very sophisticated folks in the space that I think a lot would be surprised about to learn. I think the difference in fuel and convenience in the US to, let's say, grocery or big box or some of the other large physical retail channels, there isn't consolidated ownership that you see in those spaces. So at times, I don't think consumers really understand the size of the sector, but the fuel and convenience space is more than 3% of the US GDP. So it's a huge economic driver, and so back to the retailer, they care about that 20-foot consumer journey and getting more people to come in and then buy more once they go inside.

I'm assuming that in the early days, you were selling the dream that if you do this, people will go into the store, but now the, the, there's analytics, there's the level of sophistication that can give you some data that will prove out that, yeah, this they saw this and then this happened, or how does that work?

Sean McCaffrey: Absolutely. It's a great question. So obviously, the retailers have their own first-party data relative to sales. So they have an understanding most directly if something's being advertised out in the forecourt, and then sales go up in the store, they know. But we work with a number of third-party partners, IRI and Catalina, as two examples to measure sales lift both in the store and then nearby, in adjacent grocery stores, big box retailers, pharmacies, that sort of thing. Because there's an old cliche in advertising, right? That half of my advertising works, I just don’t know which half, and that's not been good enough for a long time. We had 135, I think the number is, research studies in the field last year with clients from upper funnel analytics, brand favorability, and brand recall, down to much lower funnel direct sales and sales lift metrics.

And so we've been at that for 5+ years now, and we start to see to some degree what you would expect, in other words, for CPG products in the fuel and convenience store. For very mature trademark brands and large-scale products, we might see a 1-3% sales lift which is huge for really established, CPG brands. For newer brands, li brand extensions, and things like that, we might see high single-digit, low double-digit sales lift, which is also great, and that's been validated by a number of the CPG brands that we work with as well. Obviously, the larger ones have very sophisticated in-house marketing sciences teams and do all sorts of market mix modeling. So even though we fund studies with IRI and Catalina, which are really well-established partners. The brands also do their own modeling and report good results. 

It's a lot of what you would expect, I think, in that there's an opportunity to drive someone for an impulse convenience purchase when they're 20 feet away, if they're slightly hungry or slightly thirsty or many of the fuel and convenience retailers have pretty sophisticated food service programs these days and so if somebody's grabbing lunch or dinner, they've got a lot of choices. They can go to a grocery store and get a prepared meal. They can go to a drive-through at a QSR next door, or in some cases, they can go inside the field and convenience retailer and get pizzas and sandwiches and other things. We've got hungry consumers and a big opportunity to influence them but from a measurement standpoint, we've got lots of ways to draw a straighter line between the advertising impression and the business outcome.

If you're doing that volume of research that repeatedly suggests that there's still some skepticism among the brands that they go, prove to me that this works.

Sean McCaffrey: I wouldn't characterize it as skepticism as much as I think there's a spectrum depending on the category, and for example, an auto brand, the KPIs that they're looking for are dealer visits or site visits or someone going in and starting to build a vehicle. CPG brands obviously look at sales, and financial services brands look at card usage, card signups, and that sort of thing. So depending on the category, we've commercialized research capability with a couple of household names: Foursquare, Axiom, MasterCard, ISI, Catalina, and plenty of others. So our sales and marketing team can simply say “yes” when a client says, can we measure it?

Some categories are more mature for us, for sure. Auto, CPG, financial services, insurance, you name it. There are some that are earlier adopters to us. Entertainment's one, for example, where we can show the trailer and tell somebody to tune in tonight, binge-watch it this weekend, et cetera, and so we've got a good diversity amongst categories. So in some cases, it's a newer brand, and they want to test and learn and then measure and grow. In other cases, it's brands where measurement is just a part of every single thing they do. 

To my earlier point when I came up in advertising, I worked in a legacy radio business, a legacy billboard business where those are classically regarded as more, upper funnel reach media where we weren't typically asked to measure business outcomes or direct results, and I think today, especially in the current economic environment, particularly over the last decade, advertisers are looking to measure every marketing dollar they spend realizing it doesn't all do the same thing, right? The Super Bowl ad is not the same as a buy-it-now ad on social media or something like that.

But the research that we do is on some well-established clients and some new clients, but I wouldn't say it relates to skepticism more so just that brands today expect everything to be measured, 

And you also, I believe in the last two or three years have introduced capabilities to not only push people into 20 feet across the Forecourt, into the C Store there, but to the grocery store that might be five blocks away, that sort of thing is. Why did that happen, and what are you seeing out of that? 

Sean McCaffrey: So the interesting thing I've learned more than I ever thought I would know about the fuel and convenience space, much less consumer behavior on the day people fuel, so we produced some research about five years ago with MasterCard, and then we did an updated version with a much deeper dive the last year with Affinity Solutions, which has credit card and loyalty card data to basically look at the way people spend money every hour of the day, every day of the week, online, offline, with then one filter, if you will, added: the day people fuel up and is anything different, and it turns out it's really different. Fuel Day is a surrogate for a lot more grocery shopping, a lot more QSR visitation, a lot more pharmacy stops, big box retail, do-it-yourself, that sort of thing.

So Fuel Day is a very differentiated day for consumer behavior and consumer spending. So with the rise of retail media as an investment channel over the last couple of years. In other words, with Walmart starting a media network and Kroger starting a media network, we started having more and more of our CPG partners come to us and say, “Hey, we want to apply this sort of thinking, this retail media, commerce media thinking in the fuel and convenient space. But there isn't anyone with consolidated scale and the way there is in grocery and big box.” So as big as the biggest retailers are in our industry, you put the top five together, they have less than 20% of the sector. So we are the largest consolidated network in US fuel and convenience in terms of ad-supported media.

We launched a product called GSTV Amplify, which is really a parallel path. Number one, it's about driving sales in the fuel and convenience stores, which is critically important, and then number two, it's recognizing that our consumers are 5-7 times more likely and spending that much more on the same day to go next door to a grocery store, QSR, you name it. So the agencies and brands that are spending money across retail media, in grocery, retail media in the big box, they can leverage that data, they can apply that thinking with us. 

I had one Head of Investment at an agency say to me, this is basically the last TV ad someone can watch before they go into the grocery store. And I said if that framework helps you, sure, that's one way to look at it. We're in the solutions business. So from a scale standpoint, I mentioned our business. If you took the food and beverage sales at our stores compared to the largest grocery chains, what is the 10th largest grocer in America? If you added fuel to that like Kroger and Albertsons do when they when counting the numbers, we are the fifth largest behind Walmart, Costco, Kroger, and Albertsons. I'm not selling produce, I'm obviously not building physical retail stores, but I say it just to give an example of consumer purchasing power, right? And that's what brands and agencies are trying to find, the proverbial right place, right time, the right moment to find real attention and impact consumer behavior.

Is there any kind of an audit trail? So if I'm on my big shop day and I stop at a fuel retailer and use my MasterCard to buy 12 gallons or whatever it is, and then I go to Costco, and then if it's me, I'll probably go to the wine store or something. But is that traceable? Is there a way of saying, okay, Dave got fuel at 11, and at 11:30, he bought stuff at Costco and so on? 

Sean McCaffrey: So yes and no. Yes, in the sense that yes, we can do what you're describing. No, we're not tracking Dave specifically, right? We do not collect first-party data.

So often, a question I get is if people are swiping their credit card at the field dispenser, so you know it's me. We do not collect and track that credit card data or any other data. What we have is a naturally data-rich environment. There is that credit card swipe, there is a device ID typically in the vehicle or on the person, and device IDs and credit cards are well-worn ways to connect to household identity graphs, loyalty card data, and other ways. So yes, so what you described, we do with partners. So depending on the category, CPG brand, or auto brand, we can do that walk back to impact to show sales lift, brand lift, or any other KPIs. We do some direct surveys. 

There are companies, obviously, that do mobile location surveys that push advertisers for different things. But we work with well-established privacy-compliant industry partners to track that. As well as work with many of our brand and agency partners directly. Because the big agencies all have their own data operations these days, most of the big brands have an in-house marketing sciences team tracking all this. So what we decided to do when we were launching our approach to data analytics and research is not to build another black box that nobody was asking for, or nobody needed.

What the big agencies and brands said to us is that we just need input. We need to be able to input the GSV exposure into our tools the same way we input a CTV impression or a YouTube impression or you name it, so they can understand the impact on the campaign because it's obviously never one thing. All of these ad impressions combined to provide impact to the brand and agency. But one of the things that were interesting to me when I consider joining the business is that it is much more of a mid to lower-funnel ad exposure opportunity. It's naturally frequency capped, right? We're going to see somebody three to five times a month, not three to five times a day when that banner ad follows you around the internet. So the fact that we do have these data signals that we can use, again, in a privacy-compliant way to track success metrics is important and a differentiator for us.

Is it easier to do all that stuff now because of all the API integrations and AI and everything that's come along as opposed to in the past where yes, we have that data, but we're not sharing it with you? 

Sean McCaffrey: It has, I think for a lot of different reasons, whether it's the rise of retail media, whether it's the acceleration of machine learning, tools, and this sort of stuff, or the big agencies all purchasing their own or building their own data operations, whether it's Epsilon, Axion, Merkel, that sort of thing or others like Omnicom. Everybody understands they need a privacy complaint consumer to opt-in to track this stuff, but then it's also important to have interoperability between all of this to measure. It doesn’t do anyone much good to have a bunch increasing. walled gardens, right? So today, whether it's a cooperation-type environment or an industry-standard environment, it's a lot easier.

At least in the US market, combined with the changes in the advertising market over the last decade. In other words, the value of the living room wall. Is certainly challenging now compared to when I was a kid, and there were three TV channels, and it was, every night was must see tv. Today we spend our time as consumers quite differently. That change was only accelerated with Covid as far as people splintered viewing habits, and then the disruption in signal loss and digital now with device IDs and other things being sunsetted, the deprecation of cookies. It's moving most advertisers into more, I think, middle-of-the-funnel analysis. In other words, not everything is a buy it now button sort of conversion—the proverbial last-click attribution of a decade ago. So for us, GSTV, is what we hear often from our advertising partners anyway. If we have the scale of broadcast, which they like because of most categories, you just still need a lot of people. We've got some level of digital muscle memory for targeting attribution. Then it is this real-world consumer opportunity, which is what people generally get excited about around mobile and out-of-homes.

So it has the sort of DNA of several interesting things to advertisers, and we've built a team around the business on the sales and marketing side that comes from various big firms in the digital and video space. On our retail success team. I have a great team that literally helped build the network going back 10 years plus, and those two teams really parallel paths are commercial relationships and client service. So we have a retail success team that is just as focused on our commercial relationships with our retailers and our hardware partners. As is, our sales and marketing teams focus on the brands and agencies.

The retail success team that's nurturing the footprint that you already have, are you still building that footprint, or is it built out? 

Sean McCaffrey: Yes, we continue to build it. So a natural upgrade cycle still happens every month, every quarter, and every year, where we have retailers deciding to upgrade their equipment and add new sites. And then we have a very high 95+ percent renewal rate from retailers that have us already, and so the network is about a third of the fuel and convenience sector in the US today. At some point, it'll probably get north of half, and then beyond that, there's a point where we've probably ended up getting every retailer who's wanted this as an amenity because it is a different retailer. It's a retailer that is generally a little more focused on the customer experience, a little more focused on Forecourt conversion, a little more focused on end-to-end sort of promotional comms, and so on. 

So there's no mission here to get every fuel and convenience retailer in the US just due to the nature of the space. But yeah, we continue to grow every month, every quarter, every year. 

It's a case where it sounds like you have most of the markets that you'd want to be in any way so once you get to all that number, I forget what you said, it was 240 or something like that, at that point, adding more screens maybe doesn't matter all that much, right?

Sean McCaffrey: Yes, you're right. It's one way to look at it. But I wouldn't say we'll be happy once we feel we've partnered with every fuel and convenience retail in the US who like us, I think their business continues to change. So as they think about forecourt-to-store conversion, integration with their loyalty apps, and promotions, we're talking to some commerce partners, some loyalty partners, and different people like that where can we potentially provide a service and another service and amenity to the retailers? Not everyone has the wherewithal or the financial structure to build that on their own. Can we go into parallel and adjacent spaces? We've typically not gone inside the store. We've not wanted to compete with our retailers in a way.

But several have come to us lately wondering about their own sort of digital consumer experience journey, and there is an opportunity to partner together. So we're talking about that, and then the actual incorporation of the company. We do business with GSTV, but the actual incorporation of the company is destination media. And there's some thought to that in the sense that. We are a national digital video platform consumer, the literal consumer journey. There might be other places and spaces, high dwell time environments where it's somewhat similar to what we do today, where there's a premium audience we can define an entertainment and information amenity, and so are there opportunities to continue diversifying our consumer touchpoints, Channels within a platform-type environment where we can provide some additional value to the people we think about today, which is a long way of saying we're not going to build more screens or buy more screens just to get more screens. But I think there's some natural one plus one equals three or four or five with other potentially parallel channels or spaces beyond the fuel and convenience store. 

Yeah, you would think that. My experience is that end-user customers are not looking for more technology vendors. They'd like to slim out the number that they have. So if you have enabling technology that could do the video marketing inside the stores they'd probably be pretty motivated to go that way as opposed to sourcing some other vendor. 

Sean McCaffrey: We agree. I think there's a moment in time right now that to me feels a bit like that era you referenced earlier. In other words, in the mid 2000s where I think there are a lot of people, at least at this moment in time, running around suggesting hang screens anywhere you can hang screens, create experiences, sell ads and there's almost a suggestion that it's just that simple or just that easy, and anybody that's done it knows it's not, and it's really hard.

And also, it needs to be there for a reason. In the mid two 2000s, there were a lot of networks that were well-funded and had great management. And, 2008’s, recession aside, never really got off the ground because they were building a solution that really no one was looking for, vs. today, I think whether you're building a commercial real estate project and you're considering digital signage or you're doing something like we are, you have to think about how are you providing value? 

And for us, we're doing something that would otherwise be overhead for the retailers and difficult to do at scale, and it was challenging when five or six companies were doing what we're doing, and they all were pretty small. It was tough to get the attention of larger brands and agencies. So yeah, whether it's the hardware and software capability, or the sales and marketing engine, or the combination thereof, we're happy with what we've built so far. By no means do we think we're done, but we're looking to be a solutions provider to partners and if somebody has a network or is considering building a network and we think we can provide value, we're certainly going to talk to them. 

Do you have competition? 

Sean McCaffrey: There is one small provider in our space that I believe has a couple of hundred locations right now.

They work with a different hardware provider that we're contractually unable to work with. We're very focused on the fuel and convenience space from a retail partner standpoint, but from an advertising standpoint, I often get, who's your competition? Is it people in the movie theaters, or is it people in the airport or the malls? And no, we don't sell screens. We don't charge $100 a screen or $200 a location. We sell an audience, and you can slice and dice that audience in several different ways.

So when we talk to advertising partners, it might be a major national CPG this morning, and they're launching a new product in the southeast this summer, and we're talking about that. We might have lunch with a television team at a big agency that's trying to find people who buy reach curves and things like that. And then late afternoon, it might be a digital auto home team at an agency looking for proximity to a QSR, and they want everything within five miles of a particular QSR. 

We're competing for ad dollars in the television space, the digital video space, the retail media space, and the digital out-of-home space. And we don't have the luxury to say we're only one of those things, but I think we've got the opportunity to compete and take share across that spectrum, and that's really how we've grown. So the business has more than doubled in size in the last couple of years, both in employees and revenue. And it's mostly because our sources of advertising revenue have come from just a wider and wider part of the advertising landscape. 

Does the business runway have an end to it because of the rise of EVs and EV charging stations and so on? I would imagine it does, but I think it's probably like 15-20 years out.

Sean McCaffrey: We don't think of it as an end as much as an evolution, right? No one is debating the emergence of EV vehicles, no one is debating the eventual roadmap of electric vehicle charging. I think everyone, at least in the US anyway, is debating how long it's going to take, number one and number two. Number two, perhaps most importantly, is how's it gonna be paid for. There's never going to be enough tax subsidies to support all of it. So there we announced last year, we announced a partnership with our labs in ChargePoint to build an ad supporter network with ChargePoint, who's currently the largest large provider by a long stretch by probably a factor of five, the largest EV charging infrastructure provider where just like our business today, we think there's an opportunity for an ad-supported amenity to build out that infrastructure, and there's a bunch of advertising-supported models that have helped build out critical infrastructure going back to the early days of television and radio and everything since. Ad supported models help build us out. So we're excited about the relationship with ChargePoint and a number of their partners, and we think the journey for consumer behavior is going to be a long time, still a multi-decade transition, and as I alluded to earlier, the way we think about our business and the broader destination media sense is the platform and foundation we built in fuel and convenience is hugely important and hugely critical infrastructure today.

But whether it's the EV platform, that's really our second network or a third, fourth, and fifth one to follow. We think time spent outside the home is going to continue to grow and add supported opportunities to identify those consumers, and serve them something relevant, measuring the success on the campaign is going to continue to be critical.

So we remain pretty excited about the future, both the business we have today and the evolution it can drive for us. 

That was super interesting, and time just flew by. I had many other questions to ask, but we'll have to do this again if you're willing. 

Sean McCaffrey: Yeah, I'd be happy to. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for having me. 

Marius van Bergen, COBstr

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Technology tends to improve as it matures. That's certainly the case with LED displays marketed as being transparent. The first generations looked okay from the front, but the back sides were big metal grid arrays that often looked like hell.

That's improved a lot with newer generations, but the technology now has competition in the form of displays that are embedded in foil or film.

I was intrigued by some online posts recently from a Dutch company called COBstr, which is the sales and marketing front end of a Chinese manufacturer focused on displays that use Chip On Board technology. That's the COB part of the name.

COBstr markets super-skinny displays that use the transparent material as the surface, either adhering to window glass, or laminated the material inside the glass.  The product has a foil layer the peels off and allows the display to be stuck to glass and then if needed, pulled off, rolled up and reused.

I had a good chat with Marius van Bergen, the company's founder about the roots of the product, his Chinese manufacturing partner and the distinctions and benefits of COB versus other LED technologies.

TRANSCRIPT

Marius, thank you for joining me. Can you tell me what COBstr is all about?

Marius van Bergen: Hello, Dave. Thank you for having me. COBstr, COB stands for chip-on-board. Now, chip-on-board technology has been around for a long time in the lighting industry. But my business partner is in China and was the first one who has been doing this for LED displays. So she's the one who's filed patents, and she made some mistakes, but she’s a woman that I have a lot of respect for because it's tough in China to make it as a company without help from the state and when you have to fight the big dogs. But she's very impressive regarding technology, which is not my core business.

I'm just a person who studied Chinese and who knows China a little bit. But we hooked up about 10 years ago, and we've been going to the ISE and trying to get a little bit more renowned, and the thing with COBstr is not very easy to do. The big dogs are Absen, Leyard, and LEDman, they're all trying, and we do a lot of R&D for some of the big boys because they don't really master the technology. But it is the only way, that's the way I interpret it anyway, it's the only way forward for the LED industry.

It doesn't matter if you look at it from a sustainability point of view or if you look at it from an economic point of view, there's just no way around it because you skip an entire step in the production process because you don't have packages, which makes it a cheaper technology theoretically, I have to add theoretically, because if you are a big company and you can buy LED packages in bulk, then, of course, you have some price advantages. 

So what's basically happening is with a chip on board, you're able to apply a lot more LED light emitters to a surface without having to do the packaging, and you're skipping an entire step and also speeding up the process. Is that an accurate way of describing it?

Marius van Bergen: Yes, it is, and the package manufacturers, which are also usually very big operations, don't like us very much because if we don't need a package, we don't need their product. The big advantage and that's basically what our R&D has all been about, is that you reduce the number of components and the vulnerabilities within a display.

So is your company kind of the sales front end for a Chinese LED manufacturer, or is it a partnership where you're co-developing something, and it's coming out of the Netherlands? 

Marius van Bergen: Manufacturing is in China, so it's a business partnership where they concentrate on the Chinese markets where I'm a little bit involved as well because that's a different story, maybe I shouldn't get into that, but I basically start with marketing and business development in Europe. That's my main responsibility. 

I got interested in this because I saw something on LinkedIn talking about LED and COB-LED on foil, and I thought, okay, this is interesting. There's a company in Germany, probably a couple of hours from you that has a foil-based product that is lower resolution, super lightweight, and so I saw this and thought, oh, are you reselling that or is this something different? 

Marius van Bergen: We're not reselling that. This is our own product. It's a new product.

We had our first sample back in 2019. I guess that's when COVID broke out, at ISE, we showed it. It was a prototype that we lit, but we didn't display any images on it. But we took advantage of COVID to really bear down on the R&D, and we have now a finished product that's finished and ready for mass production, and so it's hot off the press really because we introduced it at the Signs and LED Display exhibition in Shenzhen last week and we saw a couple of other players who were also getting into this area. I guess there were about five companies also doing LED foil, but from our point of view, a very different level. Because their foil was SMD based, and also no flip chip because they don't have the equipment, and without going into the technical details they have about 2000 nits brightness, and we had 7000 at the exhibition, and we could do much more. But at the exhibition, actually, we are very proud of the product, there were people with a luminescence meter who were measuring the brightness, and they said, oh, 7000 knits. That's pretty nice. 

When you say foil, I've looked on the website, and when I think of foil, I think of shiny metallic material, but is it that or is it more of a film?

Marius van Bergen: Film would be maybe a more accurate word because it's transparent. We can make it non-transparent also. But yeah, it is transparent, and that's one of the markets that we are looking at, obviously, because you can use it as a window display for the retail industry.

How would you apply it to a window, would it be adhered or is it just hanging? 

Marius van Bergen: We are looking at hanging also, but the original idea was adherence. It has a protective foil, and when you take off the foil, it adheres so it sticks to the glass, and we have great viewing angles. It looks pretty damn nice, if I may say so. 

But the problem that we've encountered it now because we sold some to a store in New York, but as it turns out, there are regulations that you're not allowed to stick a foil like that to the window. So I think they have a regulation that it needs to be eight inches from the window. They don't have this regulation in China, and I'm sure it's not like that everywhere, those are some of the challenges you run against when you're working the market. 

Why do they have that regulation? 

Marius van Bergen:  I have no idea, but I'm sure we'll find out. 

So if it is adhered to window glass or partition glass or something like that. I understand is that the transparency is gonna depend on the pixel pitch and the amount of LED in there, but what kind of transparency can you realise?

Marius van Bergen: I have to admit, I don't know how they measure it, but we actually have two products. We have one with LED strips that are still visible and there's the more transparent product and the product without the strips, we claim, again, I don't know how we measure it, but 89% transparency, which is not bad.

Can this work out outdoors, or is it a pure indoor product? 

Marius van Bergen: We sell it as a semi-outdoor or indoor product, but we can make it outdoors as well. It just takes more protective measures. So it's a little bit more expensive if we make it for outdoor applications.

So by semi, you mean it would be in like a sidewalk window or something like that, it’s  protected, but it's intended for outdoor viewing. 

Marius van Bergen: Yes, exactly, or public spaces. 

What are the other benefits to it? Are there weight benefits or when you're pitching this, what are you saying are the key reasons you wanna take a look at this?

Marius van Bergen: As you said yourself, it's very light so instead of carrying these LED cabinets, which weigh a lot, you can just walk around and just hang them in front of a window or have them on a roll and let them hang down. They're very thin. We're between one and one and a half millimeters, so it's extremely thin. It has no frame, which is another big advantage. 

When you have a LED mesh, you have this frame that you have to install in front of a window. So all of that we do not have to do, and another advantage, again, that's what I mentioned before, is the sustainability component because sooner or later, everybody will have to switch to COB at least, that's the way I look at it because it's just too polluting to have this packaging industry go on, and it's a race to the bottom really because it's all about mini LED and micro LED and getting as small as you can, but it's still based on packages, and the package is just not necessary. It's less complicated, but it's not necessary. 

So would you see a day when you would use micro LED as the light emitters, or COB is the way forward? 

Marius van Bergen: We believe very strongly that COB is the way forward, but you can theoretically again because we don't have the purchasing power, but theoretically, you can do micro with a COB technology without a package. It's something called perpendicular stacking, which maybe doesn't mean a lot to people who are not into the technology, but it boils down to you the fact that you are able to go to a very fine pitch with COB, so without a package. So it's definitely possible to get into that area. 

But I don't see micro LED getting very mature within, I don't know, five years or anything. It's just too expensive right now. 

What would you be paying roughly at, whether it's in EU or USD, for a square foot of this material to put in something like a window?

Marius van Bergen: I don't feel comfortable talking about pricing right now. We're talking to prospects, and we're having the discussions, but we will be selling it by a square meter, and it's not a cheap technology, let me put it that way. And the reason is that each LED chip also has its own IC driver so there is a cost attached to reaching that kind of brightness that we have. 

But by having each IC driver like that, each light is addressable so you can control it, fine-tune it, and do whatever you need.

Marius van Bergen: Yes, exactly.

Are there physical limitations or dimensions to how you do this? Are they rolls? Are they are two meters wide or something like that? So if you want something that's fitting a six-meter area, you'd need three rolls side by side?

Marius van Bergen: Yes. We could make them in length that is pretty undefined.

We can make rolls for 20 meters, and we can connect them and go even longer, but the width for now, and that has to do with the equipment we have, is 32 centimeters, if I'm not mistaken. So you put the roll next to each other, and then you can build up a bigger one, and you can just cut it like, like you have LED strips at the at your local DIY store. You can cut the foil actually and make it fit for purpose, which is another really nice property of this LED foil or film if you want because you can make all kinds of shapes with it, and that makes it a very suitable product for creative projects. 

Are you restricted to rectangles as the shapes or squares, or could you do something round?

Marius van Bergen: You can do anything. You think of it, and you can basically do it because it's so flexible. 

So you could conceivably cut a big round disc and put it on window glass, except in New York, and connect it through some sort of like super thin filament wiring or whatever?

Marius van Bergen: Yes. It's not as if there are no limits, obviously, because you shouldn't cut the circuits that are crucial to the system. But basically, yes, you can do a lot of things in all kinds of shapes and forms. 

What are the challenges you face in selling this?

I would imagine a key challenge is that people don’t understand that you can even do this, and also that perhaps what they've seen in terms of transparent film at trade shows, if they're pro AV people, is what companies like LG have, which are LED on film, but pretty coarse, so to speak, pixel pitch that you'd look at and go that's cool, but I'm not sure what I could actually do with that.

Marius van Bergen: Yeah, and LG is one of these companies that, as far as I can understand it, they haven't managed to really market this thing maybe because of price, I don't know. They have a brightness of only 2000 nits, I think, and it's pretty coarse, as you said. We have a P10, a P8, and a P 6.67 now that we are selling in China. We're selling the first samples, I should say. But we can go down to 2.5, and we could probably go down even further but then, where's your transparency? Because that's what we are looking at, and when you're asking me about applications or potential clients, I'll give you an example.

We're talking to a very nice Dutch company, it's called HoloConnect, and they make these holograms, and there are only three companies doing that. There's one in the United States, and there's one in Canada, if I'm not mistaken, and there's one in the Netherlands, and it's a very nice product, and they're thinking, if we use that film maybe we can do more than just show the hologram. You can actually show an NFT with a metaverse world or something like this. It's wherever your imagination takes you. But you can add this digital layer to the hologram to the box, which would be a very nice application.

I've been paying attention to “transparent displays” for years, and when I see the mesh-based LEDs, I've thought those are getting better, they look really good from the front now, but when I go in behind them, they've improved, but they still look like a mesh or a grill and when I've seen most of the transparent LED on film products, they look really nice from the front, and when I look at them from the rear, the non-business end, it's reminiscent of the old printer ribbon cables, that sort of thing, where you see this plastic kind of long, horizontal or vertical stripes.

What does your product look like from the nonilluminated side? 

Marius van Bergen: The very honest answer, I have no idea. I'll explain why, because we've been focusing on introducing this product last week at the fair, that's the reason why I haven't got a sample yet. So we've been producing for the fair and our first distributors. We're building a distributor network is in China because, like I said, the factory's in China, and that's where our focus is for now. 

T=hey promised me that I'd get my first sample this week so they'll send it my way this week and then I'll tell you what it looks like from the back, or I'll put it on the website so that you can see it. But I've seen videos, obviously, and it's not intrusive. It's not disturbing or painful for the eyes. It's very soothing because it's transparent, and the natural sunlight still comes into space. 

Does all the light that is generated go out, or does some of it lead back into the rear view? 

Marius van Bergen: From what I can tell from videos and pictures, it doesn't lead back into the room or the space. 

What do you see as the market for this? 

Marius van Bergen: It's pretty broad. We said retail industry, public spaces, the entertainment exhibition industry. The Christmas market is actually an interesting one because we have Christmas trees now with LED strips for the festivals, but you can do more than that if you have a transparent ribbon, that way you can show your Christmas bars or snowflakes or stuff like this, and the creative projects 

Is this sort of thing that can be used on a temporary basis or if you adhere this to window glass, it's on that window glass and if you're getting it off, you're pulling it off and you're done with the thing, you can't apply it to another sheet of glass?

Marius van Bergen: You can apply again. It's like a sticker but it's not like you take off the sticker and you're done with it. It's reusable. But again, one of the big advantages is it's light and it's very thin, so you can transport it back and forth. You can actually also make fixed installations, of course, and use it like a curtain maybe, or something that you pull up when you don't need it and you let down when you do need it. 

So could this be a rental unit? 

Marius van Bergen: Absolutely. 

When you say you could transport it, could it actually be rolled up or do you put it on some sort of flat pieces of cardboard or whatever on both sides to protect it?

Marius van Bergen: It has a protective foil that you remove when you use the film but it's rolled up. You can't fold it because when you go, you are 90 degrees, then you have a circuit problem. 

So the transport costs of this versus traditional LED cabinets would, in theory, be substantially lower.

Marius van Bergen: Substantially lower, and there's almost no installation once you have your content, and you have your setup, but you don't have all these cabinets to build up, which are heavy, clumsy, and not very practical. And now you just have a roll, you roll it up. 

So the entertainment industry is also something that we think has potential for this product, especially with the brightness that we can achieve. 

When you're talking to potential customers and partners in Europe, what are they interested in? Is it the transparency, the lightness, or the ability to put in windows? 

Marius van Bergen: All of the above. The challenge, I think, is going to be to determine the right price for this product because, as I said, not the cheapest technology. It's COB, it has its own IC driver per LED chip, but y I think, for something like this, which people like to use the word disruptive, but, if you look at it and you have a bit of a vision, you can see this thing going into the consumer market even.

I'm biased, obviously, and price-wise, it wouldn't be something that you can consider at this point, but we have our mass transfer system, so we can go down with prices pretty quickly once it gets traction in the market. 

Are your plans to sell primarily in the EU or are you looking at North America and other markets as well? 

Marius van Bergen: Yes, global. We're looking everywhere.

The main focus right now is China. But Europe, the United States, Canada, you name it. We have a lot of countries that we look at. So we'll see where the market takes us. 

And are you selling direct, or are you developing country-by-country partnerships or reseller partners?

Marius van Bergen: We haven't ruled anything out, and in China, we'll be using distributors—just channel partners. 

You mentioned that there are some other companies that have products as well that don't have the same level of brightness and so on. Do you consider those competitors, or are they going after a different part of the market?

Marius van Bergen: Personally, I don't see them as competitors, but again, I'm biased because I have a very strong belief in the woman who's the brains behind this technology, and that's because I've been with her to ISE for a couple of years, and I know that all big players that everybody knows, they know this very small company, they know there's so much knowledge there but they're a bit afraid of letting us get on the radar. But I think it's going to happen, it's just a way forward. 

As I explained, there's no way around COB. With everything going on in the world, whether you are a climate activist or climate denier sustainability, it's just from an economic point of view. You don't buy a package. You have a cheaper product and a better product at that. So I really believe that we have technology that has a bright future. 

When you talk about the “green signage” aspect of this, are the benefits around energy savings, or is it as much about the manufacturing footprint that you don't have the same amount of material that you're required to produce a display?

Marius van Bergen: It's both as well. It's not only the material, as I said, but we also have a strong R&D background, so it's all about reducing the number of components to get better heat dissipation and use less power. 

The company, the Chinese side of this, are they in Beijing or Shanghai or Shenzhen or somewhere else?

Marius van Bergen: Dongwang, next to Shenzhen. But the woman who started this at beginning of. 2000, she's from Sichuan. I don't know if you know where that is. But she started with this very small company, almost a sweatshop doing traditional modular displays, the top matrixes, and from there, she evolved and got this idea. She was working for a PCB company in Taiwan, and then she got this idea, what's this SMD all about? And then she started thinking about COB, and it's very interesting how she developed, and then she moved to Beijing, then she moved back to Shenzhen, and now we have a factory in Dongwang. It's not a very big factory. It's very clean. It's very nice, and yeah, we're very confident. 

I assume part of her thinking, along with her interest in COB, is just simply that there are so many LED manufacturers in China, particularly addressing the domestic market, that if you're going to be successful, you somehow or others have to come up with some kind of differentiation, right?

Marius van Bergen: Yes, very true, and again, I think maybe it's not the wise thing to say on the podcast, but I think maybe it's changing a little bit, but very much mission-driven. Like we want to educate the LED industry. Why are people making all these packages when it's not necessary?

And so there is a drive on educating the industry and making it clear that COB is the way forward, and actually, COB is only a name but what we have now, we actually call it COB-IP because it's a chip-on-board integrated package. So it's actually a sealed assembly of a LED ship and an IC driver within one pixel.

All right. If people want to know more about this, where can they find you online? 

Marius van Bergen: Online, you can find us at COBstr.com, but you can ask me, and I'll be glad to share all the information. 

All right. Marius, thank you very much for your time.

Marius van Bergen: Dave, thank you very much for having me, it was a pleasure.

Wes Nicol, Videri

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

If you've spent any time in bars and pubs - not me, but I've been told - there have always been signs of walls promoting beverage brands. They were neon, or backlit plastic, and they were there to perhaps be the last thing someone sees before a server asks, "What'll you have?"

Imagine if you could do that instead with digital displays that were changeable and had the kinds of motion graphics or video that drew eyeballs and influenced decisions.

That's what a New York-based company called Videri offers up. Very quietly, guided by a whale client it can't talk about publicly, Videri has almost 100,000 networked displays operating around the globe - driving brand awareness and delivering a consistent 30% sales lift, month to month, on promoted products. That means an ROI on the investment for the brands who put them in that's measured in months, not years.

The big reasons why it works? It's a turnkey solution based on super-thin, super-light custom-manufactured all-in-one flat panels that a beverage brand's field staffers can install and activate in a matter of minutes. If they can hang a picture on a wall, they can put these in.

I had a great chat with Wes Nicol, who came on as CEO about a year ago and is busily bringing Videri out of a somewhat stealthy period, and making some broader marketplace noise.

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TRANSCRIPT

Wes, thank you for joining me. Can you give me the rundown on what Videri is all about? 

Wes Nicol: Hey, Dave, thanks for having me. I am excited to be on the podcast. I've been a longtime listener, first-time interviewee. But yeah, the history of Videri, it's been around for about ten years, in 2013, we started with digital out-of-home, ruggedized products working with Outfront, which was CBS Outdoor at the time, and then subsequent to that, maybe a few years later, developed a series of thinner indoor displays, Videri Canvas that we built hand in hand actually with one of our large customers And then continue to expand that globally. 

We're typically more of a white-label shop. You don't really hear much about vi I think when we talked before you mentioned, “I have never heard of you guys.” That was probably on purpose. We can talk about that later but we have a complete end-to-end solution: we build hardware, CMS & device management software, and I’m happy to get into the details. 

I had heard vaguely of you in the past, I think one of the jobs that Videri was doing, you mentioned Outfront was on the MTA in New York? 

Wes Nicol: Yeah, exactly. So anything that you see on the MTA is our product. 

Oh, okay. Now, do you still do that sort of work, or was the move to these thin canvas displays something of a pivot for the company? 

Wes Nicol: We're still doing that. We are still actively deploying right now at the MTA, and there's gonna be a refresh cycle that we're hoping to participate in. But I think strategically we want to become more of a software company and there's a lot of green space in the indoor product. As you know obviously in the industry, there's a lot of opportunity there. So that's kinda where we're focusing most of our efforts right now.

You have been very quiet. I would say almost stealthy, but in the past year, you started to make some noise in the market, right?

Wes Nicol: Yeah I'm new to the company, so I joined about a year ago…

So you're the noisy guy? 

Wes Nicol: Exactly, and I'm Canadian. So typically we're pretty humble folks, but it's funny. We were at the ISE show. I think we saw you there at your event, at the actual show itself, people are saying, “Hey, we've been trying to find you guys like. We've seen this product somewhere, we just didn't know who made it”, and there's nothing written on the actual display that actually says, Videri on it. You have to kinda pull it off the wall, look at some serial numbers and do some Googling to figure it out.

And that's been great because some of our partners love that. They love the fact they got something really special and unique, and we're going to continue to do that kinda white-label approach. But when you see your list of the top display manufacturers in digital signage, we're nowhere near where I think we should be based on deployments, and that's cause we're not really being captured. 

We're in a lot of cinema projects. We're in many of the top beverage brands obviously we're in QSRs, and there are tons of retailers that you probably wouldn't even realize that it has Videri. 

I have this interesting story that I relate of my experience at DSE, going back to November, and being just like dead tired on my feet and some guy from a company called Videri asked if I could come to their hospitality suite at The Aria, and I didn't wanna go. I was just so tired, but it was right next to the hotel where I was staying, so I figured, okay, I'll go and I met him and we went up the elevator and then walked down a hallway that was, I swear, three miles long to the end unit in this hospitality suite and said hello to some people and they brought me over to the product and it was three skinny monitors on a buffet or whatever you wanna call the thing, and I was thinking to myself, really, I did all this to see some skinny desktop monitors and I thought, please god, get me out of here. But then your guy started to explain to me what was going on and I thought, oh, wait a minute. This is actually interesting and how I've since described it to others is it does a bunch of things, you can explain all that. 

But what I said was, if you think about bars and restaurants that you've been in that had a display on a wall for a beer brand or some other beverage brand and that used to be neon and then it became backlit plastic, printed out plastic. Now it's digital, it's skinny, it's changeable, and it can go up in a matter of minutes and be fully managed on a network and affordable and there's an ROI out of it.

 Is that kind of a fair description of what you're up to?

Wes Nicol: Yeah, absolutely. So that was the kind of the need of this large customer, which shall remain nameless, that worked with us, and the idea was like, you've gotta build something that's gonna fit nicely into a bar, a restaurant that's gonna fit in the environment. There are weird wall situations. It's gotta be something that can fit in. Just like you're hanging a picture effectively, and it's gotta be easy to deploy, being like the sales rep that is working with that bar, the restaurant has to be able to be one that actually installs it. You don't need a third-party installer to come in, roll a truck out and do it. 

Cause that's $150 an hour or something, right? 

Wes Nicol: Exactly. Plus there are all the costs, so these people are already going there. They're dropping off the beverages, they're dropping off merchandise, they're talking to their clients. They have to be able to deploy this in 15 minutes, that was the requirement, and so that spurred a whole bunch of things and thinking about how that is being used in that environment. It's not a tv, right? So part of the importance of this is that we're able to build this cause of what it doesn't have, right? So there's no need for a tuner, no need for speakers, no need for HDMI cables. We have media players embedded inside, a SOC running Android, and they're really thin power cables because we're not actually consuming a ton of power, and we need to be able to store a certain amount of content locally that is connected though it can be modified and centrally managed.

And so the way that works for the restaurant or bar owner is they can have customized cocktail lists, they can do menu boards that will benefit them, but the beverage brand in this case can showcase their products and maybe include that in a cocktail or do some branding exercises and that can all be centralized and managed.

This particular brand which shall remain nameless manages, I think over 40,000 locations globally in 80-something countries now with one person managing content with two interns, and they're managing content globally, and part of that is as part of the installation, obviously, the sales rep is able to just screw it into the wall, there are two screws that you pop it on, plug it in and then they use this app to connect to the WiFi and then connect the network, and effectively they walk away, but they can, with the bar owner in this particular example, customize that content, do some stuff, and so the way we've had to create our CMS platform and device management platform, Is to enable hierarchy of permissions and it maps into this particular customer's CRM system. I think you're using SAP so if that rep is no longer part of the company, they lose their permissions to access those displays. But they can only access these 10 locations and they can work and the bar owner says, Hey, I wanna change this content. I wanna manage this or do something different. That rep can manage that. But the global programs, the programmatic marketing, it's all done centrally from the headquarters, and so by building this product, we were able to then see other benefits, right? 

“Oh wow. It's really thin, it looks beautiful, that's an advantage for events”, and so there's been countless sort of offshoots from building this core product. 

And was it a case of the European beverage brand, I know we're dancing around this because you wanna make sure you're not doing something that's going to upset an apple cart, were they already doing screens in these kinds of environments and thinking this is too challenging, we need something different. Can you help? 

Or were you already working with them and they said, this is a start, but we need to work with you to fine-tune something that really suits our needs?

Wes Nicol: This particular brand has always been very innovative. They've always been pushing the envelope in terms of on-premise marketing. When you're consuming products on the premise, you've got, as you mentioned, like kinda the neon signs, those types of things. That's been kinda standard. They are always the first ones, and so they were testing different digital signage options and they were never really getting what they're looking for, and then they said, we kinda gotta build it ourselves, and luckily through the initial relationship the connection was made and we started building this and testing it and they said, ok, we'll run a pilot, and we'll see what it does. They ran it in a number of locations. Over a period of time, they said, this has to be a one-year ROI or less. That was like the requirements of the pilot. 

They significantly busted through that. It was a lot quicker, and they've seen a 30% increase consistently over four years and tens of thousands of displays consistently driving that because when you're in that location, when you're in that bar, you don't go to a bar thinking, Hey, I want a gin and tonic. Yeah. You're going in there I wanna go for a drink with some friends, right? And oh, what are we gonna have? What do you have here? What's on the menu? Oh, that, okay, great. I'll order that, and so it's kinda that power of influencing people subtly in the background. We're not like a big TV that's showing a sports game, right? We're something that's in there as part of the environment that's. So it was built for that purpose, for that kinda subtle influence of that decision at the point of sale and the deployment, in terms of the requirements of the hardware, they weren't happy with buying TVs.

Like when I came to the company a year ago, I said, hey, TVs are a lot cheaper. We should just make TVs, and they're like, absolutely not. We've built this for a reason, and so that really kinda made me understand the product a lot better.

So when you say 30%, that's a 30% lift on sales of that item in that venue?

Wes Nicol: Yes. Consistently,

Wow, month over month. So that would pay for itself in I don't know, six weeks or something, right?

Wes Nicol: It depends on the product and we've seen in other environments, like in a retail store, get a return on investment in two weeks, it's crazy.

And that's the thing I think about this whole industry. I'm coming from a different industry before, but coming into it, realizing like everyone I talk to about my job here at Videri goes wow, never thought of that. We could totally use that in my industry. And people from all different spaces, and I feel that in this market, there's such a green field opportunity. There's been the traditional stuff, QSR that's been done, but there are so many different areas that I see this potentially going into and when you see these kinds of impacts, like if you're at the point of sale and the customer doesn't really know what to get, think cannabis and others, there's a whole bunch of new industries that you just need a bit of guidance, right? I don't know what I'm coming here to buy, but I want something, and just being able to explain to that customer in a digital way. We have the tools now. We didn't have them before, and yeah, it's really exciting. 

I suspect that the kind of turnkey element of it is also very attractive in that if you want to do something in, let's say a bar, you're gonna have to buy a display, buy a media playout device, or maybe there's SOC on it, but you're gonna have to buy them out. There's a whole bunch of parts involved, and then you've gotta identify software that you're gonna work with. Is it compliant? On and on. So it can become complicated and expensive quickly, and the end users just say, you know what? Maybe later, but not right now.

And they're just selling the dream, so to speak, as opposed to you, because you've got this client and some other clients who can actually say 30% consistent lift month on month, it's like holy shit, where do I sign? 

Wes Nicol: Yeah, exactly. Even as you were mentioning, I'm thinking about my TV in my apartment here in New York. I hung it up and I screwed it up a million times, right? And it's heavy, and you're trying to hold it up against the wall. These things are super lightweight. We stripped out everything, right? It's just really down to the bare bones, but it does what you're looking for it to do, and so you're absolutely right. The idea is a very simple consumer-like experience in terms of out of the box, installation. We're talking about a simple iOS app and you've gotta connect to the cloud and then you can manage that through the console, and we're just about to launch a whole new refresh of the platform that is like super user-friendly that will make that possible, and I'm not able to announce a big partner that we're launching other than this beverage brand that's gonna make this a lot more accessible to the average SMB taking advantage of those key features. 

Because you worked pretty closely and continued to work pretty closely with us particular beverage brand, did that restrict who else you could work with?

Wes Nicol: They frowned upon us going with their competitors directly. But not necessarily, no. There's no kinda exclusivity there. But they are pushing to build a product specifically for them and they have got some unique features that they put in that we can’t use with others, but those are software features, so no, we're open, we can work with others. 

Does it become a challenge in the venues themselves where they say we've already got these Videri screens for this beverage brand, we're tapped out, we don't have more wall space, or we don't want competing ones here, this is good enough? 

Wes Nicol: Yeah, that's the genius of this idea. It probably wasn't even Videri’s idea to go and do this, but it was this beverage brand’s idea like, hey, this is a bit of a land grab, right? There's only so much real estate in these locations, and if we can own that space it's a win-win for the bar, restaurant, and brand but if we can go and get out there, and they have an aggressive plan to expand then they own that space kind of indefinitely since these things last for a while. 

So that's one of the models we're looking at where the brand is being showcased in a third-party location and the brand owns the display and that's unique and I think it's gonna continue to play out in a few different areas. The other one we're looking at, and we're starting to see some real interest in that, is that the actual retailer owns the display and they have a closed network where they are already getting the brands to spend money on merchandising in the stores. Think about a Telco that's launching a new Samsung Galaxy phone that is 23 or 25 or 57, whatever version it's now, and they wanna buy space in that retail location, they can actually use these displays to, number one, pay for themselves immediately, but also be revenue generating for merchandising in that closed network. I'm not talking about connecting to an exchange or anything, I’m talking about a private closed network and we've seen a lot of it. 

It's just endemic advertising. 

Wes Nicol: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I think wireless retailers are like the poster child for that. It is perfect because there are always new products and there are always new plans and features and everything else and the compliance issues of having the right posters up at the right time and all that are massive in that kind of environment, and if you could just all do it digitally, that would be great, but historically retailers tend to be very cheap, would be the impolite term for it, they don't want to spend the money on that infrastructure, they'd rather have the brand come in and do that. 

Are you seeing that shifting? 

Wes Nicol: No. Retailers are under a ton of pressure, you know, 80% of the sales that happen in the US are actually in brick-and-mortar. I didn't realize it was that high, so they're under pressure. But I think the idea is that we have to find a way to displace ourselves. So you've gotta figure out an OPEX model, or maybe it's a three-year term or something like that, and then you charge them monthly, but ok, it's gonna cost you X, but you're gonna make 3X back in a month, let's do a trial for free for three months, see what happens, and they say, wow, like this is actually gonna be generating money from your marketing as opposed to, it's not gonna be a cost set, it's actually gonna be positive. It can show the results immediately. 

So part of the issue for us is like we really need to be able to report that and tell that and really ideally getting access to the point of sale information and say, Hey, like when we've displayed this, we put this out there. We've been running these particular promotions, we've been focusing on X sneaker brand, and that sneaker brand increased dramatically and increased margins at this location by X and Y and really making it affordable and that's the whole thing. I think in terms of the adoption of digital signage. You just have to make it easy to deploy, whether it's a partner that does it or it's in-house, if you're able to make that happen, like this beverage brand, and I think others are able to do it, you still can have a partner come in and it's inexpensive for them as well to kinda just deploy and manage. And so it has to be I think on a monthly basis and it has to drive that business return on investment, very quickly. 

If you pay upfront for the hardware, these displays are expensive cause you're buying the hardware, that's when you're in the year ROI but if you're saying, I'm gonna advertise this over three years and it's monthly, and we know that we're seeing the return quickly, usually in month two or three you’ll find that it's actually paying for itself. 

Yeah. I wrote recently just the other day actually about a company that was starting down the path of AV as a service, the very high-end IT services and everything else related to that, and you're starting to hear about deals that kind of roll in all the costs of a digital sign network into just like a subscription, a monthly fee, to do everything, not just the software, the hardware, the whole nine yards.

Is that something that you are doing now or looking at? 

Wes Nicol: Absolutely, and we have partners that have been doing this for a long time. Here in the US, Velocity Managed Services they're one of our partners.

Oh yeah. Out of Dayton or Toledo, or something like that?

Wes Nicol: Yeah, and they provide a monthly all-in package. They've been doing a lot of stuff with cinemas and other brands. I don’t know if I can mention the brands. I'm just going to be really careful. But yeah, so that's already provided by them and they can also do a la carte: Do you want to have content management? Do you wanna have content development? We've got all the different services. They even do the installation as part of the monthly, so instead of paying upfront for installation, you can do it over a period of time. I think that's a good model. I think that you can see more and more of that. 

Yeah, because not every end-user client is going to have field reps bringing flats of drinks or whatever into a venue every three days or whatever it may be. With other ones, you're going to have to have some sort of an install crew, even if the labor costs are relatively low because it's quick.

Wes Nicol: Absolutely, and many companies don't want to deal with that, right? They just say just give me a turnkey solution. I want a partner to manage this for me, I'll pay for it, and that's completely reasonable because the business case justifies it.

You guys provided the screens at my mixer in Barcelona and we had multiple screens with content cascading over multiple screens, shifting back and forth. So there were many matrixes of rectangles and squares and so on. You could do interesting stuff like that. But what we've been talking about mostly till now has been with what sounds like single displays that would go up and replace a backlit display or backlit printed signs that might have been there in the past. Are you doing much in the way of these multiple displays?

Wes Nicol: Yeah, that's a whole other space, right? And this product is fantastic because of it, the name Videri means ‘to be seen’ and it's an interesting play on words in terms of, like, how do you want to be seen? How do you want your brand to be seen if you're at an event, if you're launching a new product, how do you want that to be seen?

You want an elegant, beautiful display, but you also would love to see an array of displays that's unique and different, right? You can do a wall, an LED wall, that's one thing but if you want a unique layout that's like Eye Catching, we built this orchestration software that really enables you to do that automatically. So you can pinch and zoom the entire video, and if you're able to see the screen behind me right now, and I know we're just on audio, but I have videos running across a number of displays in the back wall of my office that just automatically happens.

So when you're looking at events, activations, and others, unfortunately, a lot of our stuff we can't really share. We have some hidden places that I can share with certain customers, but yeah, so it could be like, you're launching a new car, or you're doing a new whiskey brand or trade shows. That's a huge opportunity for us. People didn't realize this existed, and since we've come out in the last few months here, we're getting tons of inbound requests, and we're going to an event in Kentucky that's a booth-building event. So Booth builders are looking at this product, saying, this is super light, I can hang this anywhere. I don't need special reinforcement. It's very thin, and then I can do these mosaics, and we have a lot of examples of doing an entire huge stand of 50-60 displays, all orchestrated content and it's kind of a unique way, and we've done some studies on that, and it really draws your attention because firstly it's unique, but we purposely put gaps in between the displays by the way, that's what we've learned as a best practice, at least an inch or two in between. So then your mind is drawn to it like you're trying to fill in the gaps and it just draws your attention more. So that's been kind of like one of the key best practices in terms of how we arrange these displays. 

It's interesting because the mantra in digital signage for 25 years has been to try to get to seamless and not have gaps or bezzles or anything else, but you're saying that visually it works the other way. 

Wes Nicol: Yeah, just to be unique, and to catch the eye. Like we're an LED wall, and the LED walls are fantastic, right? They're really cool for certain things, but we have a unique product that lets you stand out, do something different and draw people's attention because you can do things that you couldn't otherwise do. 

Are you constrained by the creativity of that? If a creative person is listening to this, are they starting to think, okay, what does this file look like? What am I doing that's different? Do I have to design something very custom? Or is it just a file, and it'll run on here?

Wes Nicol: It all comes down to actually how you mount the displays. You've got three ways to do it. It has to be a square, portrait, or landscape, right? And you can't have some weird triangle thing going on with displays because it looks kind of weird. 

But yeah, in our creative studio platform, it shows like certain content will render well in that aspect ratio, and so if we work with you on an event and you're saying, okay, we've got this wall that we're going to be working with, we can say, okay, we can do a couple of portraits, we can do landscape, we can do whatever, and then the content has to match up to that. But generally, all the major formats of video, and then you can go back to still images, to video. We can schedule all and manage all the different slots.

So if it's an interesting-looking matrix,, if you step back and look at it, you're thinking in terms of it being a 16:9 rectangle as the overall canvas, even though it might not fill all of it or a square, or whatever.

Wes Nicol: Exactly. 

Okay. So you've mentioned partners a few times. Are you mostly selling through partners, or do you sell direct, or a little bit of both?

Wes Nicol: This is kind of a miss, I think, over the company over the years is we haven't really set this up properly, and we're fixing that. But we have a lot of direct customers, and then we have a very small handful of resellers, a couple in the US and one in Israel. Having gone to this ISE show in Barcelona, realizing people want the product in Poland, they want the product in Spain, they want the product in the Middle East. So we set up a partner program that we just launched two or three weeks ago. We're getting resellers and distributors that will give us the products in the country throughout EMEA. That's like a big push right now. So the product can be sourced there. 

In the past, you'd have to get a shipment from New York and it would take forever to reach Saudi Arabia. Now we're gonna have a local presence with local distributors. So we're definitely actively signing up a ton of resellers and partners. There's been a ton of demand at the show, I think I mentioned that people were just like, wow. where have you guys been? I've seen this. I'm from South Africa, I've been trying to find this product for years and no one would tell me where they got it. So that's all that's changing now, and we're really actively recruiting partners. 

You guys did the reference design, I assume working with your big client or clients, is the manufacturing done in China or somewhere in Asia? 

Wes Nicol: That's correct, done in China. We do all the design work. Our New York office is the sales and marketing, and finance. But we have all of our engineering is done in Canada, based in Montreal. So we have hardware and software engineering up there. So we design, we got mechanical engineering, we deal with radio stuff, and like a whole bunch of designing everything from the display. We're actually building some other unique things I'll talk about maybe a future podcast that is taking advantage of some of the skill sets up in Canada. But yeah, all that stuff gets designed, and we work for the entire process. We're launching a whole series of products right now, and it's QAd in Canada and then it goes back to the manufacturers in China. 

Would that just be an evolution of what you already have or distinct? 

Wes Nicol: It's an evolution with some interesting new twists to it. 

Like what?

Wes Nicol: We can talk about it when you invite me back to get back on this show. 

Now, what about a large retailer that's already working with Brand X CMS software company. Can you integrate with them, or do they have to be like parallel activities that don't cross one another? 

Wes Nicol: We're completely open. We just had a big meeting about that. We're working with some other partners around integrating their CMS platforms. We've got killer device management. So I think our role, when we're working with other partners, we want to be able to manage the provisioning and, making sure the device has the right software, we're able to get a lot of really good insights in terms of CPU performance, memory, WiFi signal, temperature, all that stuff. We would continue to play that role, but we definitely integrate with any other CMS platform. 

When you were at the show, we were sitting across from Appspace, and we went, hey, can we run your Android APK on this? And within 15 minutes, we had Appspace running on our displays at the booth in Barcelona. There are some gotchas to this. We have to do a little bit of modification, but it's actually quite easy for us to start running some other CMS platforms.

Does that cannibalize your revenue? 

Wes Nicol: I don't know if you have my history, but I was at Blackberry, and we were talking about the fact that do we just stay focused on the hardware or do we open up our platform? And you remember Blackberry Messenger, and then they kept that unique to Blackberry because they thought that would help sell hardware, and you saw where that went. 

So I understand that we need to work with other partners. We have to be an open platform. We were talking about a potential partner of ours that's got I think a million displays that they're managing, we're not going to rip out existing deployments, right? We want to play nicely. Maybe they want our display. I see our device management platform being something that could be really valuable, and we'll take a small piece for that, and I think that's reasonable. 

You mentioned that you're in 40,000 locations with this particular client. What's the overall footprint if you can tell me?

Wes Nicol: With all our install base? We're around the six-figure number, but I can't say exactly. 

Okay. So north of a hundred thousand?

Wes Nicol: In that kind of range, yeah.

Wow. That's a pretty big footprint for a company that very few people have heard of.

Wes Nicol: Yeah, I know. I have to get that fixed. 

It's working. 

Wes Nicol: Yeah, it is. But I think there's just so much more potential and we need to make people aware of this.

The structure of the company. Are you privately held or public? 

Wes Nicol: We're privately owned, primarily by a family office here in New York.

Oh, wow, and you're able to just grow organically? 

Wes Nicol: Yeah, for now, yeah. I mean there could be some potential acquisitions later on. But yeah, without going into too much detail, we completely revamped our whole software platform and refreshed our hardware platform, and invested in marketing. So there's a lot of stuff going on right now that we're just focused on kind of coming back out into the market. Once that plays out, then there could be some other things we can focus on. For now, we've got our hands very full. 

I appreciate you taking half an hour for me.

Wes Nicol: Thank you. It's great chatting with you and nice meeting you there in Barcelona, and excited to hopefully get back on here sometime. I need some more excuses to talk to you again. 

Absolutely. Thanks again, Wes.

Ney Corsino, Nanolumens

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

Nanolumens was an early player in the LED display space - known mainly in its first few years for innovative  display products that were super-light, thin and flexible ... at a time when just about everything else on the market was heavy, thick and solid.

The Atlanta-based company was still pretty much known for that kind of product when Ney Corsino was hired on as CEO, at the start of 2020. Experienced as a business transformation and turnaround guy, Corsino has evolved Nanolumens from a company with an interesting niche product to one that has a full range of display options - from conventional video wall set-ups and all-in-ones to transparent mesh displays and the thin, flexible units that first gained attention.

Nanolumens has also got more focused on some key vertical markets - arguably the biggest ones being airports and public spaces. Several new air terminals that have been built or renovated in the last couple of years have featured Nanolumens product in its signature public art, messaging and experiential installations.

Corsino and I chatted about how he has also put in the hours with his team to clarify how it goes to market, and how it specifically works with integrators and solutions providers.

Subscribe to this podcast: iTunes * Google Play * RSS

TRANSCRIPT

Ney, thank you for joining me. You joined the company from Barco, so you would've already been well-versed in LED displays. What attracted you to Nanolumens? 

Ney Corsino: Thanks for having me. Yes, I came from Barco before Barco, and before that, I was at Phillips, Philips Electronics, a European company, and Barco, also a European company, and now at Nanolumens, a US-based company. But to be honest with you, at Barco we paid little attention to LEDs. We have a deep engineering base in projection there and we venture with click share. 

LEDs have been up and down at Barco and at Nanolumens, all we do is LED, so we are pretty much focused here. 

Because you knew the business, was there something in particular that attracted you to Nanolumens? Because they're relatively small and US-focused as opposed to a big global entity like Barco. What was your perspective on all that? Why join them?  

Ney Corsino: I think for good or bad, I developed my career in improving businesses, transforming and improving turnaround, and I felt that the impact I could continue to do would be more valuable in companies like Nanolumens. So I think it was a good encounter between a company that needed this kind of action and someone that had experience in doing this at a corporate level in many different business units. So now I could come, and exercise all I have learned all by myself and I'm very glad I did that.  

When I first got to know Nanolumens, let's say 10 years ago, their calling card, so to speak, was these flexible, almost rug-like displays with removable modules, they called them nixels at the time, and I think they still do. 

It was very unique on the market at that point, and those were the early days anyways for LED displays. I wouldn't say they're not still unique, but I don't get the sense that's the kind of the main growth driver for Nanolumens these days. 

Ney Corsino: The company has run for about 17 years. It has been one of the pioneers in the LED display market, has been involved in many innovations, and has almost a hundred IPs, but most notably, like you just said, it is the invention of the flex module, which is still called nixel where you can basically do smooth curve wall. So we hold IPs on that. But since then, it has evolved quite a bit especially in the last three years, we continue to do of course very well on the curve. But we have re-engineered and extended the portfolio for cabinet-based modular units, also mesh, all in one. So we now have a very extensive portfolio.

Now if you ask about the sales, it's almost half of it. It is still customized, which includes the curved modules, and the other half is more on the standard flat solution.

Why do you think it's played out that way? 

Ney Corsino: I believe that the brand commands that customization aspect, the DNA of creativity, wow effect, doing things that are let's say complex and difficult, but we engineer to make it possible. So I think that's the inheritance of the brand and continues to be. What we have tried to do, part of my arrival here is to continue that, but create us not a next segment that gives the possibility of of scaling up the business, and that's why, as I mentioned before, re-engineer the flat segment all in one mesh outdoor if it is more on the architecture. It's the one step in the direction of extending the portfolio to scale the business and find a consistent regular growth path for the business. 

So if you stayed primarily with these lightweight flex products as your main product line, that would restrict you to being a niche manufacturer as opposed to broadening it and becoming a general manufacturer that would give you scale?

Ney Corsino: Exactly. It is very architectural, customized, and therefore you could call it niche. It's a good portion of the market. We do very well there, but if we have bigger ambitions and big plans, then we need to play in other fields as well. 

In paying attention to projects that come on stream, and knowing that in many cases the customer doesn't allow the manufacturer to say who it is that's providing some of the technology, I still get a sense that Nanolumens is doing a lot of airports in particular, and I'm curious why that's played out like that. 

Why are you guys winning so much of the business in airports? Apart from that, I'm sure you're gonna say because we have great products, but, there have to be other reasons.

Ney Corsino: Yeah, that's a very good question and probably not easy to answer. The product definitely makes an important play there. But I would say, Dave, that the airport is one of the most complex and demanding environments. You have the airport itself, you have the airlines, and you have the advertising agencies or companies. There are a lot of things going on in an airport. You have very tight schedules where you can work and when you can’t. We have security aspects to it. 

I think over the years the company just got to understand how all these cards are played, and then more importantly, we learn and we learn to adapt and not fight the system, but work with the system, right? Whatever the constraints are, wherever the demands are, we translate that into a workable plan that involves product, involves people, involves a process, and there we go. 

How much of it does Nanolumens take on versus channel partners and integration partners? 

Ney Corsino: I think about the past of the company and then I have seen not only Nanolumens, but also in my past, there is confusion within the company as far as the go-to-market is concerned, and that's not a good thing. It was no different here. Nanolumens from its past behavior has confused the market in terms of whether it is going directly, is it going through the channel partner. So one of the things that I've done since my arrival is basically to clarify that and commit to a go-to-market plan, and it is my strong belief and that's where the company is settled now. We go to market through channel partners. So that's our approach. So there is no more to it.

So you don't do direct sales? 

Ney Corsino: No, we do have some house accounts, legacy ones but less than a handful, and whenever we have a company that wants to do direct business, we sit with them and we explain all the risks associated with taking a technology company that is focused on creating things and trying to make it a turnkey company that will be distracted with many other things. And through that dialogue, we always introduce channel partners that work with us very well, and I think, I think 99% of the time we end up in a good alignment that we will play through the channel to the end user, and everybody will be satisfied. 

One of the things that have come up in LED manufacturers for marketing is because a lot of the “channels” didn't really have a lot of background and experience in deploying LED displays, they didn't know how to specify it, they didn't really know how to sell it or anything else. So a lot of the manufacturers came up with these all-in-one finished displays with fixed sizes and they would come in a kit and everything's there and you just open it up and deploy, and it's a 186-inch big ass TV that sort of thing.

I'm suspecting that the channel partners you're working with are beyond that because they're doing mega walls and airports and so on. 

Ney Corsino: We do also have these big-ass TVs as you call them. It's part of the working out distribution model for the company. Our channel partners work with them from a very early stage where we train their designers, we train their salespeople of course if they are open and welcoming to it, and most of the time they are. So we actually work together to make them more comfortable with the technology and entertain the prospect of their business, but ultimately that will come back to us and we will engineer the solution as a final project anyways for them. 

So it sounds like this is more about getting the right channel partners as opposed to getting lots of channel partners.

Ney Corsino: Oh, definitely I mean there are thousands of them out there. We work very well with many, but I think there is a right balance and we try to be very cautious of it. 

The marketplace seems to be inexorably moving towards increasingly fine-pitch displays. Are you seeing that or are you still experiencing some customers who understand that the dynamics of the environment we're in 4 millimeters is fine or even 6 millimeters? 

Ney Corsino: I would say that the answer is: Yes. For the most part, every two-three years, the volume goes into the next narrow pitch size, right? It used to be the 2.5, and then it went to the, let's say 1.5, and to the 1.2. So it feels like it moves, 3-3+ years, and that is not changing. 

However, I think that's very interesting for the LED marketing industry. LED is going in places where nobody would have a screen before. That's number one. So it is growing into something new areas, new applications. The Second is also replacing some of the projection technology, and the third is also replacing some of the old LCD solutions. So it's a market that keeps growing, and I say that because, with that kind of penetration in so many applications, you end up with a need of almost any pitch size, any fine pitch, meaning, the 4mm might be very good for certain applications and the 6mm from some others if it is outdoor or indoor. 

I will give you an example. In airports, there are a lot of 2.5 millimeters going, and they say, why is that? Why don't they go finer? It's because terminals and lobbies are usually very big in airports, so the screens are far from the person and therefore you don't need a super fine pitch, a 2.5 does an excellent job. 

Is there a kind of a sweet spot, like I was hearing in the last couple of years that seems like the market has settled a lot on, as you were just saying, 2mm to 2.5mm works for most applications if you're getting away from really close end things in retail or museums.

Ney Corsino: Yeah. That is right, and I think there is a second trend toward volume on the 1.2mm, especially in applications where people don't want to have a tile LCD solution. They want to have a more smooth, seamless, and large screen. So therefore you also see in that particular part of the segment where people are closer to the screen, the market’s moving very fast for the 1.2mm.

I was walking around Integrated Systems Europe about a month ago, and looking at displays that were R&D products at that point, or R&D efforts but I saw 0.4 millimeters and I didn't see it personally, but I saw the PR after a Chinese manufacturer saying they had 0.39. So just a hair thinner even and I wonder, are they just marketing, trade shows, eye candy kinds of things? Is there really a demand for the LED to be that tight in pitch? 

Ney Corsino: Technology-wise, there is a pursuit for that, that's correct. I think one of the reasons is that you need that kind of super-duper fine pitch to reproduce what LCDs or OLEDs are doing nowadays in the market. Now for the consumer-based screens, you will need to go that low. So technology tips, pushing the boundaries, pursuing that route, no. When you look at the business side of it, the business is run in 0.9mm to above pitch size. Even when you say 0.7mm, many companies are now displaying 0.7mm, is it doable? Yes. Is it expensive? Yes. Are there volumes? No. There will be very, very selected products or screens being made on a 0.7mm at this point. 

So I just try to give you a relative situation between a technology that pursues eventually to be in a consumer kind of demand but still is in a professional kind of market. 

We've seen in the last few years the emergence of mini LED and then micro LED. Is most of what Nanolumens is doing still for, to simplify the description, conventional SMD or four-in-one LED? 

Ney Corsino: Yeah, so we do conventional. Nowadays also moving to COB and therefore going to mini LED. That's where we play. I think the term micro LED is a little bit overused in applications that are not micro LED. I'm trying to be polite, but there is a big marketing push on the use of micro LED at this point. 

Do you see your company going to that? If some of the mass transfer challenges and production challenges get overcome, because I keep hearing that when those get figured out, that's really gonna greatly reduce the cost of micro LED and make it something that you could use for something other than just super premium applications.

Ney Corsino: Yeah. At that point, it is almost like a process industry. If you don't control the yield it cannot be cost-effective. So they will have to operate at a very high yield. I think the company will go with the market. As part of the transformation from the early days of Nanolumens, we are now very market-centric and we will respond to the market demands in the short, mid, and long-term.

So when you say you're market centric, you mean you're focused on certain verticals like airports? 

Ney Corsino: Exactly, yeah. We try to translate unique aspects of those segments into the portfolio, and into the design that we will provide.

Does that kind of apply to going after larger public spaces, that sort of thing? 

Ney Corsino: Yes. So let me also give you a little bit of insight into the business. The largest portion of the revenue mix was on the airport and also in theme parks, so large projects that come every other year. But since then we are now having a very evenly distributed mix where we operate in airports for sure, theme entertainment for sure. But now we also do lots of business with corporate, large venues, but also, especially their lobby and briefing centers. Higher-ed has been investing nicely, Sportsbook, and last but not least, the golf segment. I think those segments are all growing for us, and that gives us a more evenly spread mix in the top line.

Why are all these different segments now investing in LED versus 2-3 years ago? Is this just a function of price and awareness? 

Ney Corsino: I think so. I think the product became more affordable. The product became better, therefore it can be applied in different ways, on different surfaces, and I think the previous solutions they had has already depreciated, and LED becomes the next technology that’s future-proof that provides a more immersive experience.

And I think not to overplay the word immersively, but there's an enormous trend in an immersive experience, and when can you achieve that? And I think LED from a screen technology is very capable of doing that. 

Yeah I've certainly seen this emergence, particularly of these experiential venues where they're using projection, and I love what some of them do. I've got a good friend who has one in Montreal, but I just wonder if that's a technology that's gonna be taken over by LED with time, because you've got more flexibility, it doesn't have to be a darkened room and you're not confronted by some of the environmental issues.

Ney Corsino: True. I think my belief is that no, the technologies will coexist. One technology opens up a new application like those new kinds of museums u or experiential centers that you mentioned. Eventually, some of them will move to LED when they find it is appropriate to have an application to do so. Projection will still stay there. So I think they will coexist, but they will find a new balance in terms of sharing the market. 

One thing I believe your company has expanded into in terms of broadening the product line, is some of the mesh LED products that are both for indoor and outdoor use. Are you seeing a lot of activity there?

Ney Corsino: Yeah, we started that more than a year ago. We installed the big landscape here in Atlanta, the TKE building. I think that got a lot of media exposure. It's a large surface up high in the building. 

It's an elevator test facility, right?

Ney Corsino: That's a test and showroom facility. So there's a lot of elevators going up and down. The building has a glass facade so people could go into the elevator and yet see the stadium down there and see the city, and they didn't want to block that view so we engineered a match solution where you go through the elevator and you still see through and enjoy the same view. However, if you are on the road, in the stadium and you look back at the building, you have this beautiful branding screen there, and that was designed about two to three years ago. It was delivered about a year plus ago, and since then we have seen the pipeline increase.

People became aware of it and the possibilities of it, especially the architects and consultants are very interested to see what the new possibilities are, and we've been engaging more and more in those conversations, and with that, the pipeline keeps growing. 

I assume that one of the reasons there's a lot of interest in that is because it's pretty lightweight, and as you say, it doesn't block light coming in, in the way that a solid kind of cabinet-based system would do. Is that a big attraction?

Ney Corsino: Yeah

You mentioned earlier working with the channel and with integrators. Are you also trying to circulate and drive awareness amongst the design and architectural communities because I kind of see LEDs becoming a building material. 

Ney Corsino: Yeah, we have a separate group within the company here that deals exclusively with the AUC group and we have lots of certified material for training. We do lots of hands-on learning, and we find out that, although we are a very known and improved and growing brand, there are still a lot of people that need to know us better. So that's definitely one aspect of importance for us and we enjoy it because it's not a sale conversation. It's more of a solution conversation in many cases. 

You're based in Atlanta, you do your design, all the specifications, and everything in Atlanta and like everybody else, you get some of the manufacturing done overseas. You're competing with a hell of a lot of companies that have sales offices here and maybe some degree of support, but most of what they do is on the other side of the Pacific. Is that a kind of a key marketing plank that you are based in the US and somewhat designed and assembled in the US versus the others? 

Ney Corsino: A hundred percent. We are very proud of it, and let me quote a customer the other day. The customer, it's a new engagement channel partner and he asked, “When we deal with your company, we actually don't need to use Google Translator. Is that right?” I replied, “No, we don't need Google translator. We are here. We have the full skills here. We are very easy to do business with. We respond very quickly, and we are very adaptive.” At the end of the day, if you put everything into Excel or into the papers it is more cost-effective to have it this way. 

And are you finding just generally that the people you're working with, they are familiar or they've had enough experience in the marketplace to understand that you can have a Chinese manufacturer that has a sales office over here, but support everything else is overseas and that becomes problematic?

Ney Corsino: True, and Chinese manufacturers knock on my door every single, and they offer me, and of course, they offer many other people out there. So then the question is, what's the value proposition? What's the uniqueness? 

So we are very tied with our supply chain. We have made improvements in the last two years. They are paying off nicely, and our channel partners working with us have appreciated all the value that we have been bringing to the table, and once we go through that experience, a hundred percent of the time, it's becoming repeatable and the repeatability of it gives me the comfort that we are adding value to their business, and we can do that in a profitable way for the industry, including ourselves. 

Where are you at as a company in terms of headcount and are you public or private?

Ney Corsino: We're a privately owned company. Therefore we don't share business metrics. 

But do you have 50 employees, 100 employees, or 5k employees? 

Ney Corsino: Around a hundred. 

Okay, and is most of that in Atlanta? 

Ney Corsino: I would say 70 to 80% in Atlanta, and the remaining part spread.

For your manufacturing, do you have people over in China or wherever you get some of your product made or components made? 

Ney Corsino: Yeah, so we work with a contract manufacturer but we have R&D and a supply base in China. 

If people wanna know more about your company, where would they find you online?

Ney Corsino: Nnanolumens.com. We have refreshed the website and brought a lot of tools into it, making the experience a lot more user-friendly and that's where we'll find us. 

Great. All right, thank you for spending some time with me. 

Ney Corsino: It was my pleasure. Dave.

Brandon Harp, Electrosonic

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

When I see an ambitious new visual display project lit up at a new or reno'd airport, office tower or attraction, I just about assume that if it's in the US, the company that put it in is probably Electrosonic.

The company is, technically, an AV systems integrator, and there are lots of them out there, of all sizes. But where corporate meeting spaces, control rooms and reception areas are the day-to-day work for most of those companies, the bread and butter work for Electrosonic is in locations where experience is the primary consideration and mindset.

The company - which has offices in the US, Europe and Asia - has a ton of experience and expertise in delivering AV and IT jobs that involve more than getting infrastructure in place. They work a lot with creative design and technology shops who are fantastic at the big ideas and compelling visuals, but want and need to hand off the install to a seasoned team.

I had a great chat about Electrosonic with Brandon Harp, a senior business development manager working out of the company's New York offices.

Subscribe to this podcast: iTunes * Google Play * RSS

TRANSCRIPT

Brandon, thank you for joining me. Can you give me the rundown on Electrosonic and what it does that's different from a lot of the AV integrators who are out there? 

Brandon Harp: Sure. Thanks, David. I appreciate you having me on the podcast. I've been a longtime admirer of your content and so forth, so I've been following you for many years, so I really appreciate the opportunity.

So Electrosonic is a technology professional services firm. We design, build and support innovative technology solutions that create unforgettable experiences where people live, work, and play for many years. You probably know of us from the museum and the theme park world but we've expanded over the years and have really started to focus solely on immersive and experiential environments, and so for us, we're a bit of a specialized firm. We do consider ourselves still a boutique-style AV systems integrator, but the kinds of projects that we work on are global level and span a multitude of different industries, including corporate and retail and attractions and a multitude of others.

You said you expanded into this from museums and those kinds of attractions. Was that a conscious decision or is that just where the business was going? 

Brandon Harp: Right after Covid, we made a decision to go back to our roots, which were always these complex sort of custom environments that we had been working in for many years, which our clients best knew us for. We've done away with just the kind of typical hang-and-bang conference room projects. We still do a portion of those if there is an element to a more project that fits better into our scope. But we've really done a good job, I think, as a company of being able to identify where our strengths are and where we can really add value for our customers. And that is really in that experiential and immersive sort of environment working with video walls, various different interactives, projection mapping, and things of that nature. 

Is it a situation where you don't really want to do the meat, potatoes, boardroom, collaboration displays, all that sort of stuff because there's no money in it or minimal money in it, or is it just not terribly interesting?

Brandon Harp: I think it's a combination of all those things, Dave, I think with the standard corporate conference rooms, it's really become a race to the bottom, and we just as a company have recognized where our strengths are on delivering these projects and really our delivery model best lends itself to more of these custom really high-end engineering projects where we need a certain level of technical ability that not all integrators have, and so those are the kinds of projects that we're setting our sights on, and that's the ones that we continue to get hired for because of our ability to not only project manage, but engineer and design. 

Something you might not know about us is that we actually have a full design consulting firm within our larger company, and we look at things through, I would say, a much more creative lens. So it's less about just engineering a system, and it's more about looking at it through a creative lens and saying, all right, what's the user experience? What is the story that you're trying to tell? How does that all get fused with the architecture? And then really thinking about at the end of the day, what is the human connection and what are they gonna feel as the system gets implemented and they go on to use it.

Yeah, you've found this niche and pretty lucrative niche in that a lot of the AV/IT systems guys can be very good at the technical side of putting something in. But they've probably not spent a lot of time with video walls or projection mapping or inversive environments, and you just start talking about that and they're looking at you like, could you say that again?

Brandon Harp: Yeah, absolutely. I think, again, it goes back to our roots, working on dark rides and so forth in theme parks. If you can imagine some of the complexities of being able to projection map in an environment like that, we've been able to essentially replicate that and bring that same methodology, that same sort of design consulting and engineering into corporate spaces, briefing centers, visitor centers, lobby attractions, things like that where you've got this sort of experiential element that we're best known for, and then we help you think through it creatively and our creative technologists and knowledge experts can really help the clients think more about, okay, what is that user experience? What do you want them to feel? As opposed to just looking at boxes and squares on walls and trying to price technology. 

So our approach has been a bit different, but it seems to be very effective with our clientele, and they like the fact that we're not afraid to take the technology away from them in order to really think through that content experience, to think through what is it not only short term but also the longer term for their environment. 

It's interesting because so many places are now being defined as attractions. So 20 years ago, an attraction was a theme park or a museum but now, as you alluded, a corporate lobby is an attraction.

Brandon Harp: That's right. We've seen a big uptick in that right around the time of Covid, so 2020 and onward. What we're also seeing is that there are quite a few real estate developers now who are trying to take on these attractions. I think one that you're probably familiar with, that everyone has either been to or is aware of now, is SUMMIT One Vanderbilt, where SL Green was the real estate developer behind an attraction like that, which is an observation deck that spans multiple floors and is multi-sensory. 

So working with real estate developers like that who have a good understanding of real estate and square footage, how do we apply that to an attraction-based environment and help them be able to have the very best system to create that guest experience, and that's what we've been doing and that's why we've continued to get hired for these large scale projects that seem to have those sorts of elements.

For that one in New York, what was driving SL Green? 

Brandon Harp: What was really driving SL Green was the vision that their CEO, Mark Holliday had to have this observation deck that sits high above the clouds in New York, and as part of a major building that went up just next door to Grand Central Station, which is One Vanderbilt and so 90 stories up in the air, you've got this multi-sensory experience where people can not only come and see and enjoy the views of New York but also be immersed in these various different rooms and environments that really lend itself to something for everyone. 

You don't necessarily have to be a tourist to enjoy it. You can also be a local or someone just passing through. But it really lends itself to something for everyone, and now we're starting to see more and more of these major supertalls that are going up, that are changing the New York skyline, having an element of an immersive experience in it, whether it's an observation deck or a lobby experience, an elevator experience, things of that nature.

And where did they see the money out of that? If it's an observatory high up, I assume they're charging for that. 

Brandon Harp: They are. It's a paid attraction. So that uptick in paid attractions inside of corporate, what were typically fully corporate buildings is now something that we're seeing more and more of.

Yes, you may have, all the other floors in the building are corporate tenants, just like One Vanderbilt. But it also has this attraction there that spans four floors. So you're starting to see this mix of not only corporate, but attraction-based entertainment, and think about it, in New York City, it's not a theme park like a Disney World or a Universal, where you've got lots and lots of acres to play with. We're talking about going vertically here for these attractions that go up in New York City. So we're starting to see a real uptick in that and really being able to apply all of that methodology that we've developed over the years in how to deliver those projects successfully for the theme park business to these corporate institutions.

I'm assuming it's a bit of a delicate dance for these property developers if they do that sort of thing because if you turn your building into a tourist attraction, you're at the risk of a lot of crowds and people wandering around, and the regular tenants are fighting their way to get to the elevators and things.

Brandon Harp: Yeah, I think to combat that, what they've done is for example, One Vanderbilt, they have all the tenants have their own lobby, so they're actually utilizing their own elevators and so forth. So their day is not interrupted at all by anything in terms of crowds or anyone trying to get into One Vanderbilt. For the observation deck in SUMMIT, it's got its own separate entrance and it's actually very well thought through. I think what impressed me most about SL Green was their ability to adapt to the ever-changing kind of design and environment, and they really did a good job of listening to all of the consultants that they brought in.

Again, they're real estate developers, and so to take on a major attraction inside one of the largest buildings in Manhattan is something that was a bit foreign to them. But they really brought in great consultants to help them think through every aspect of this, which is why it runs so effectively and efficiently now.

You mentioned that you have a design consultancy. What is all that about? 

Brandon Harp: So our design consultancy practice is based out of Las Vegas. We do have design consultants now that are remote as well. So we have a few here on the East coast and in Denver and a couple of other strategic places around the US and overseas in Europe.

But for us, it's very much about AV consulting. What you may not know about us is that we also do security surveillance, access control, as well as information communication technology, which is your structured cabling as well as acoustics. So oftentimes we find ourselves in these conversations very early on with architects and owners and people who are designing these experiences, and so they want us to be a part of their team to help steer the technology decisions, and so we're finding that we're being hired more and more early on in these projects because we look at things through that creative lens. We consider ourselves creative technologists, very true to our trade and very client-focused throughout, and being involved very early to help steer and guide the solution through master planning is very important to the outcome of these projects, and so now what we're seeing is an uptick in design-build as well, because we're working very closely with the owner and the owner reps at an early stage to really flush out the design and the intent, and then if we're able to come in and do the AV build, which we're finding is happening more and more, there seems to be a real desire to have one hand to shake at the end of the day when it comes for all design-build and all the way through to support, which is what we offer.

Do you find that the end users, whether they're property developers or just building owners or major tenants or whatever, that they are smarter or more sophisticated about what they wanna do than maybe they were 5-10 years ago? 

Brandon Harp: That's a great question. I think it's still a mixed bag. Honestly, I think there's oftentimes when clients come to us with blue sky ideas, or maybe they have some sort of concept renderings that they had hired a firm to put together for them and then they ask us, "How do we execute this?” and “What do we need to be able to be successful?” And I think that's where our design consulting practice comes in. We help them really think about not only the technology but more importantly, what's the outcome, how the user feels and what are they gonna experience here that's gonna make them want to continue to come back and continue to talk about this.

So getting in early like that has really been very effective for us, and then the build portion of it as well, which we've always been very known for. Having a good understanding of the project from day one has really made it very effective for us.

How important is scale? We've seen all kinds of press releases about a LED video wall that's 60 feet wide or 100 feet wide, whatever the dimensions are. But I'm wondering if you're starting to see a more sophisticated approach where you are not just thinking about the scale, but how it fits, how is this gonna work within the environment? All those sorts of things. 

Brandon Harp: Yeah, I think some of the clientele has thought that through or they've gathered information from other projects. Some do have maybe a bit of a more sophisticated approach, or they have someone who's a technology advisor who's been helping them think through things. I think where we come in is really to be able to help them take that to fruition, right? And take it to the next step. So I do think it's still a bit of a mixed bag. 

In terms of the scale itself, it depends on the project. I think we do a number of projects that are gonna have multiple locations over and over again, and we create this blueprint for those, but we also do a lot of these one-off projects, as you can imagine, especially when it comes to museums and theme parks and briefing centers and things of that nature where it's one of a kind experience and we really have to be able to deliver on what the client's looking for. 

Yeah, and that's a bit of a challenge I would imagine. One-off projects are awesome when they come along, but it becomes a bit of a roller coaster ride as opposed to the predictable recurring services you might be providing. 

Brandon Harp: It is very much and we find with these one-off projects that because of the size and the scale of them, typically they take anywhere from a year onwards to be able to complete. So you can imagine that requires a great deal of patience and skill and making sure that we have updated schedules just strong project management, and strong design engineering early on to make sure that we have the very best system in place. But, also the supply chain is another thing, right? And so not to go too far of a rabbit hole on that. But if your projects are typically a year to a year and a half in length, often what we're finding now is that the client wants to know right out of the gates, are there any stumbling blocks in terms of supply chain challenges? And then we have to order this material, and equipment very early on in the process in order to combat that or we have to find something else that we can use in order to deliver the system on time and within budget. So it's a bit of, as you said, a rollercoaster is a great way to describe it.

You said a year and a half. With some airports and let's say hospital campuses, that's probably more like a 4-5 year planning cycle, right? 

Brandon Harp: Certainly, yeah. I think the year to a year and a half seems to be average, but yes, to your point, we often find ourselves involved in airport projects and so forth where the delivery date is 2026 or 2028 even now. And again, I think it has to do with being able to get in early with the right people, make sure that we're providing them with what they need to be successful, and then staying  in touch and in tune with what's going on through the life cycle of the project and the management of it. Project management in AV has always been a hot point, right? 

And so for us, it's very much about the project managers being able to see through a project of that length properly and show it the adequate attention that it needs to be successful. 

I'm also guessing that because you're sometimes looking that far out for an airport or something like that, you really need to stay on top of emerging technology and think about, okay, I'm not thinking about what I'm going to put in right now with what's available right now, I'm thinking about what's going to be out there three years from now, which might be micro LED or something else that isn't really commercially available right now. 

Brandon Harp: That's very true and that's a great point. It's certainly something that we take into consideration on all of these projects.

I think you have to look at the manufacturers and the longevity of their companies. Are they gonna be around for many years to come? And what does the product roadmap look like? And I think that's why we have our key partners that we work with who are very good at understanding what's coming, what's future, making sure that they stay top of mind with all of our designers and our engineers to ensure that at the end of the day when the system is installed, that it is the most recent and up to date technology, and it's not something that's going to be phased out or end of life that just simply isn't feasible when it comes to spares or replacements, anything like that.

So Thinking that through, especially on these longer projects is really important and that's what makes us effective. 

I've been intrigued when I've seen big design agencies like Gensler or content-driven technology shops like Moment Factory where they've worked with you guys a lot because I get the sense they know what they're good at, they know how far they can take a big idea, but at some point, they have to hand it off to somebody who's good at the execution. 

Brandon Harp: That's exactly right. We have developed, I think, the kind of the secret sauce for being able to work with companies like Gensler and Moment Factory, because you're right, at the end of the day, they're the big thinkers, right? They're the creatives who ultimately generate the user experience that is on those LED video walls, or on the digital signage or the interactive, or the inside of the projection mapping, and so forth. 

For us, we have to play that supporting role and not every project is exactly the same, but we do understand what their strengths and capabilities are And then we play a very supporting role in that, and we've now made it so that it's a well-oiled machine and as partners, we're very agile and limber enough to be able to say, we need to pivot a little bit, or we need to look at this a little bit differently than the last one. And again, not Two projects are all the same, and so I think it's our ability to work with them and adapt to ever-changing circumstances and projects and environments that allow us to be as effective together as we are. 

Do you try hard to stay in your lane, so to speak, and not get into the creative stuff?

Brandon Harp: I think at the end of the day, you have to have a creative vein in you to work here, right? That's ultimately what we do. We're constantly pushing the envelope of what's possible, but we also have to put the trust in our partners, and I think we do a really good job of that.

We've never been a company that's done content or experience design, and the reason for that is that we have a multitude of partners who do and who do it very well, and so for us, it's more about playing that supporting role with making sure that the technology is something that they can work with when they're creating their content but it's also something that is gonna be easy for the end user to use if that's a requirement, and really just play that supporting role. 

I think that, at the end of the day, what people see in what they view on these large displays, as you talked about, is really the product of the creative minds that go into the content and the storytelling, and we're there to play that supportive role.

I think that's more what I'm asking is: you guys conceivably could have a creative team that would produce the big visuals and so on, but because you work with some great partners, you do your thing and let them do their thing and don't get into a competition.

Brandon Harp: That's right. There's no competition there. Where I think we do is supplement them very well is our executive consulting. So we have Will Bolen, Chris Conti, and Chris Moore, who are executive consultants who work for us, those three individuals are super talented. They've got a great deal of experience, both working hand in hand with clients to help them think through what it is that they're looking to do with their space. But they're also very technical, right? So they come up with sketches and little drawings and things like that can really make them multi-faceted individuals within the company, and that's why they're so effective. 

Oftentimes they get paired with the likes of Moment Factory or Gensler or an architect or an experienced design firm who's looking to help their client uncover what is possible with the technology and then from there, we work it through design consulting and into systems integration, and then all the way through to service. 

Do you have end users who are coming to you and just basically saying, “I want that!” because they've seen something? 

Brandon Harp: Yeah, believe it or not, they do, and I revert back to SUMMIT One Vanderbilt again because it's very unique. It's award-winning and it's just something that everybody, I think is aware of or familiar with now, especially in New York City and they constantly are saying, how do we create that, or even in the airport environments like we just did Terminal A at Newark, I've had multiple airports say to me, “We want that 232-foot long video wall right at departures or behind the check encounter” and our response to that, Dave, is often, do something different. 

It's great to be able to pull inspiration from other projects, but no one wants to see the same project replicated. So how do you pull inspiration from something that's that unique, but then put your own spin on it? And especially in an airport environment, because it is high traffic, it's a public place, millions of people and users go through there. How do you do something that differentiates? And that's what we always try to coach our clients into thinking about, what is it that's gonna make you the next talk of the town? How do you get yourself to that point where people are taking selfies or people are talking about the technology and the experience that they had as they moved through the airport? So those are the kinds of things we keep in mind.

Yeah, there are really two tracks in airports. You've got the big immersive experiential, almost like public art installations, but then you've got a lot of LED and flat panel displays that are just about making the experience of getting your way through the airport to a gate and onto a plane easier.

Brandon Harp: I actually think there are three, Dave. I would add the digital out-of-home experience as well there, because there's the Clear Channels and the Intersections of the world all have these large contracts with these airports and real estate owners who have their screens as well And in a lot of these airport environments, like Newark for example, there are over 80 displays there that is specifically geared towards targeted advertising. 

Then you've got your art piece, which you mentioned, which is more experiential and immersive, and then the third pillar is the typical airport communications, right? Because people have to know where their flight is and how to get from point A to point B, whether it's wayfinding or something of that nature. But there's really a multitude of digital endpoints that go into any airport or terminal experience.

Yeah, I have been blabbering away lately that if you really wanna see the state of the art of digital signage and how that technology is applied in different ways, go look at a renovated or new airport terminal. 

Brandon Harp: It's true, and the government's flushing a lot of money into obviously the infrastructure and redevelopment of these airports.

That trend we feel is gonna continue and it's gonna continue to push the envelope for what is possible. I think at the end of the day, you're finding that these old, outdated airports really just need a refresh, something that's gonna make people wanna fly out of there. Something that's gonna set the tone for the trip that they're about to go on. But also just as silly as it sounds, put a smile on their face. If there's a way to make people feel at home or comfortable or keep them entertained so that they're buying more concessions within an airport environment, that's a huge win for that terminal and that airport.

I just wanna know where my gate is, how to get there, and how long is it gonna take me to get through the various lines.

Brandon Harp: And maybe where the bar is? 

Never. (Laughter)

Is there a trend that you're starting to see emerge?

Brandon Harp: Yeah I think there is. I think, just at the start of 2023, we've seen a real uptick when it comes to experiential and immersive environments in higher education, but also in sports. 

We're finding more and more of these higher education institutions wanna give students access to a big video wall that may have a multitude of interactive touchpoints and ways of being able to use the system itself and interact with it across a multitude of different tracks throughout the school. 

So there's been a lot of that recently and then sports as well. These kinds of one-off experiences within stadiums and training facilities and things like that. There really has been an uptick in those through since the start of the year and we're expecting that trend to continue. 

Is there a big project that you're allowed to talk about that we're gonna see in the next calendar year? 

Brandon Harp: I can't really get into the specifics and the name of it, but the one that comes to mind for me is an immersive museum experience that's gonna be happening downtown in Manhattan, just outside of The Oculus, so a well-traveled area. It's a building that probably anybody who's from New York or has been to that part of the area is gonna be revamped and it's gonna be led by an immersive artist and a team of people who are really invested in not only the video but the audio portion of any given museum experience.

So you can expect upwards of 20+ video walls and large-scale rooms with huge projection-mapped walls, floors, and ceilings. Just a variety of different experiences as you travel through each room. So it's something that's on the horizon, and the scheduled opening date is right around Labor Day of this year. So we'll see if that holds true. But in any case, it is something that's upcoming and we can give you more information on it as it unfolds. 

That’s led by a real estate developer? 

Brandon Harp: It is another real estate developer, so much like we were talking about earlier in the conversation with SL Green, this is another company that's very prominent in New York. This is the first real venture for them into more of the attractions type of space. So they do need a lot of help, but we're there to provide it and the support that they need to be successful, and we really anticipate this being a game changer for them and especially for lower Manhattan.

All right, Brandon, thank you! 

Brandon Harp: Yeah, thanks, Dave. I appreciate you having me on today.

   

John Hoyle, Sook

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

If an entrepreneur or an established brand wants to open a temporary pop-up store on a busy retail street, there's a lot of planning, work and cost involved in making that actually happen.

So what if there was a retail space in a high profile location that could be rented for as short a time window as an hour ... that uses LCD video walls and software to establish the look and feel of the shop?

That's the operating premise behind Sook, an interesting UK start-up that has digital-first spaces for rent in attractive locations around the UK, including London's retail-lined Oxford Street.

I visited that Oxford Street location when I was in London recently, and had a good chat with Sook founder and CEO John Hoyle.

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TRANSCRIPT

John Hoyle: So it's really easy to quickly create a clean and bespoke environment and so that means you can literally do whatever you want in these places. It's a space that is as much about non-retail uses as it is about retail. It could be somewhere to have a screening of a movie, it could be somewhere to do yoga, pilates, or meditation or it's a shop in the more traditional form. 

The whole rationale behind this is that if you facilitate hourly access to units like this, which would otherwise be empty, you can actually drive three to five times more revenue than a traditional lease because you are making use of the time before, you know, standard rent is over a 10-year period, deeply inefficient because someone sits in a space and expects there to be effectively making all of their money on in the peak hours whenever those are, which is like a Saturday. Using this you can drive your own footfall, drive different peaks across 120 hours of the week and generate more revenue, as well as make it much more efficient for occupiers to come and engage with the space. 

It's completely modular. You can take this entire fit-out away and move it elsewhere. It's all free-standing so there's a selection of furniture. You can see the hanging rails and shelving units here which makes it super easy for someone to come and self-serve if they want to. So using QR codes, you can learn exactly what you need to do, full WiFi, utilities, audio, et cetera, anyone can come quickly turn this into a space to use for whatever they want. These modules obviously can be disassembled and moved to another space. So we don't take leases. We are just a device that operates as an asset management tool within specific spaces. If a landlord wants to move us, they can, there's a small cost associated with that, but it's much more economically and environmentally sustainable to have this fit-out that can be reused in multiple other locations.

This one is slightly compromised because we're over two stories and the rear loading is in the basement. It actually works better on one level with a big back of the house. It's a bit like a theater set. All of the physical preparation happens out back so that you can efficiently roll into the space for your activation. 

I'll show you downstairs. Everything that’s here, we can take away. There’s storage out back, but this has been everything from a rave for Jaegrmeister who launched a party, to the launch of a High Streets Reports by a big industry insider to a salsa dancing class. So it's all about using the same space for multiple different activations and doing it in a way that allows digital content to drive how you make that place appropriate.

That's why it's interesting to me that they have started to add digital screens to retail kind of after the fact and now we're in the situation where you have people who look like this, that are setting up pop-up retail with digital as the enabling part of it. So you can change the feel of a store, change the message, and everything else with a few keystrokes. 

John Hoyle: Absolutely. If you think about where the brands of the future come from, they are gonna predominantly start online because the barriers to entry are much lower. But they need that IRL engagement to have an authentic touchpoint with their customers. But they don't wanna scale as the private equity-backed retailers in the past have by taking 120 leases and then marketing them. They want to dip in and dip out and have an online-type solution that's agile to determine where works best for their product and to make use of the fact that they can drive their own footfall through social media. 

So if you think about it, I suppose a good example in the UK might be a, let's say Superdry, a challenger brand that's had to play the game of real estate to get where it is, to become AN established brand. We believe that we can facilitate that happening for the brands of the future without them having to need a real estate department to negotiate leases, to deal with the portfolio of assets. In fact, there will be this agile solution that they can use as they see fit, and what's interesting about that is that suddenly you are changing the role of a shop as a static distribution channel for stuff, and you're making it much more of a point of engagement for customers to actually meet IRL, the people that sit behind their brand and the products, and that can happen everywhere. There's no need now for perhaps the flagship in Central London or the concept store in Coven Garden because the various entries are lowered by this solution, you could take your product to secondary locations around the UK, do it for a weekend drives an enormous reaction because the people in, let's say Northeast England are not used to seeing something like that and then get out without any of the legacy, liabilities or commitments that you would normally get through these. 

It's a service in just about every respect, right?

If I'm a fashion designer, which is a very novel concept, if I wanted to open up a pop-up store for the weekend, I wouldn't have to worry about the AV. I wouldn't have to worry about any of that stuff, I just do a deal to have the space for six hours or whatever it is and you guys can take it from there, right? 

John Hoyle: You can dice it in whatever way you want. So you could be completely absent and we would run the entire piece for you, including fulfillment, staffing, and even the design of your space, and you can obviously have complete control because using Canva, which is an Australian Photoshop unicorn, you can drag and drop whatever you want onto the walls and you can walk around in 3D before you come here. So you can be in the US and control space in Oxford Street without having to be here. So that opens up enormous opportunities where at a fraction of the cost we can serve you.

But it's more about just that flexibility for occupiers. It's also making physical spaces available for all sorts of uses that are not necessarily traditional retailers. Social media is becoming increasingly important as part of the customer shopping experience. So working with those sorts of brands to engage IRL, onboard customers online, and complement what they're trying to do online is really powerful.

But equally, if you think about amenities. In the UK, retail banking branches are closing down in record numbers because they just don't make any sense with the rise of online banking. There is a real community value to those places for some people. Could we run a banking offer in the lunchtime slot, which is when people wanna go to the banks and not be there the rest of the time? Can you bring digital art into play? Gaming, estate agency, car showrooms? A whole spectrum of retail uses that basically haven't existed in the physical high street for all sorts of reasons previously to be used in a much more agile way in our spaces. 

Is there a typical time window, like the amount of time when you are seeing bookings?

John Hoyle: It completely varies. We've had a guy take the space for an hour, turn it into a shrine to his girlfriend and propose to her. Equally, we were a Corona testing center in one of our spaces for I think 14-15 months, which is a sign of the times. We have three-month bookings. We have three-day bookings, and that's the point, different people wanna do different things at different times and that really is the core of what we do. No one needs a shop seven days a week, hardly, practically, no one needs a shop for a decade. Think about the time that you need to do activations. Let us manage the headache of all of that, learn from it from analytics, and then get out and do something different. 

The old mantra in real estate about location. I suspect that still applies, right? 

John Hoyle: It does, but it's a mindset rather than a reality. My belief is that footfall is a flawed metric, and that's what really underpins that location piece. The way we've done retail traditionally is that you found a location that suits you. Adjacencies are important, but you are really basing it off the demographic in the area, and then footfall, and that's a deeply inefficient model when you think about it. To make a 10-year bet on a place based on a data set that you see at that period in time, sit there for a decade, and only make money on maybe a Saturday or a Sunday. The rest of the time you have a loss-leading asset. You can't be agile and change if something about that location changes, and you're not learning anything about customers elsewhere.

So what we are saying is why not be far more granular, why not figure out which hours of the week your product works in? So Greg's, which is an incredibly successful restaurant brand essentially, it's famous for its sausage rolls, and they sold more Greggs sausage rolls last year than there were Big Macs in the UK, to put some scale on it. So their biggest selling unit is at Birmingham New Street Station and its peak time is from 10:30 on a Friday evening. It's people who've been drinking in pubs, buying sausage rolls, and are out on their way home. The other time they do a lot of business for essentially the building trades very early in the morning. So they are completely different profiles to an apparel brand, for instance. What we're saying is why don't you blend all of those different uses into more concentrated, more efficient spaces? 

Is it nimble enough that you could do multiple occupants in a day?

John Hoyle: Yes, absolutely. 

Have you done that?

John Hoyle: Yes. When you think about it, most shops don't open till 10:00, and most close at about six. Then you've got four, maybe five hours in the morning, which lend themselves to wellness, for instance, and then in the evening when shops sit dormant, this could be an event space, and that's pretty lucrative. In fact, in its own right. I think we could hang our entire business model on what shops would see after hours in certain locations to use this amazing digital tool, to be a private room for a restaurant or could it be a Deliveroo restaurant for instance, or could it just be a party, but rather than renting a bar and having a minimum bar spend of a few thousand pounds, you can have something bespoke, where there is amazing digital content of the person whose birthday is, for instance. Children's parties, and meetups, there are limitless ways of effectively monetizing space when in normal retail times, it's just closed.

Yeah, I've certainly heard of restaurants that are daytime cafes that have realized, okay, we have a kitchen and everything else, but we shut down at 3:00 PM, why don't we have a breakfast place in the evening? It's a Mexican place or whatever, and they're using the same kitchen, but you're sweating the asset more.

John Hoyle: Absolutely. The same principle applies here, just we've gone to extra lengths to make it more versatile. The food and beverage pieces are probably our most challenging use case because of the infrastructure that's required. You can't just have bare walls and exact screens, so that's our limit.

Although you can cater in these places, you just can't really prepare food through cooking. But yeah, given that there are fast approaching a hundred thousand empty shops in the UK alone, and that problem persists throughout developed markets, why aren't we making use of these assets better and doing it in a way that can be financially sustainable? 

If you do it, what's really interesting is that there is a market for people who want to use these spaces at the right price point, and in the UK, if you have an empty shop it becomes a business rate liability, which is like property tax in the US. So an empty unit isn't just an empty unit, it's actually a liability for landlords. So what we're saying is let's bring them back into the community, let's make them accessible. Let's engage with customers in a completely different way, to the risk-free basis that has been the important use of the real estate asset furniture for so long and engages with a whole new spectrum of occupiers that just didn't exist 10 years ago.

If you have a hundred thousand empty shops, is it a risk to you with that many available spaces, the rental property becomes commoditized, the price comes down, and it becomes a challenge for you to be competitive with that?

John Hoyle: Not really, because our model is an arbitrage on whatever the rental levels are. Right now empty shops are a huge opportunity for us, and when you think about it from our customer's point of view, actually rent shop occupation costs are only about 30% of the total costs of having a shop. When you think about the cost of staffing an empty shop. To my point where if your shop is only really profitable on a Saturday, It is really painful having to staff it for the other six days of the week and a landlord will demand that you do. If you're in a shopping center, you have to be open. That is part of the deal, and you think about the inefficiencies around stock, people buy, and there are billions of pounds of stock sitting on shelves around the UK. It's absurd. Why not lend an online demand model with an IRL activation?

Yeah, create a public showroom and get fulfillment on the back end. 

John Hoyle: Exactly, so we believe that we are creating the opportunity for massive efficiency across the board. It is hard to get brands to think differently. There is a huge amount of inertia around some of the big established brands who just have always done things a certain way.

It's the, “I want that unit. I want it for 10 years with a five-year break, If we get X amount of football and we price our stuff at Y, that will convert into profit.” There are lots of guys that cannot think beyond that and that's one of the challenges of being changemakers like we are is getting the 10% of early adopters to think differently about and do stuff, right? 

So where did this come from, this idea?

John Hoyle: I launched it out of an accelerator called Zinc, which is all about delivering social ventures for profit. My background is in real estate. I'm a landlord, formerly at Grosvenor in Central London. So I was deeply frustrated having been on the other side of the fence about the inefficiencies and the huge numbers of occupiers who are excluded from shops. 

The reason there are a hundred thousand empty shops is partly price points, but partly accessibility. All the ancillary costs around lawyers, agents, and these guys are all set up to do deals that have to be at least a year, but generally five and ideally ten. That struck me as such an enormous opportunity for disruption. That we've seen in the office space. We've seen it in the huge residential space. Huge global unicorn businesses have disrupted those sectors, but no one has done that in retail yet, and it's slightly more complex. There are the customers of your customers to think about. There's stock, there's a brand, and that's why a fit-out is necessary to facilitate all of that. 

So if I'm an apparel designer who has just come out of some fashion school and I wanted to open my own, the commitment to do so would be many hundreds of thousands of pounds to do that, and through this model, I can open up on Oxford Street where we are for a day and have a popup and it's gonna cost well, what would that cost for a day?

John Hoyle: It depends. So it's demand-based pricing, so it's cheaper on a Monday than it is on a Saturday. If you can drive your own footfall, then you might as well take a low-value retail allowance. But you can on a good day get this space for probably just under a thousand pounds on Oxford Street, which yeah, no commitment, no utilities, no legacy issues. You come, do your thing, and when you work it works, you've got clear evidence of that that it is really useful as part of your entrepreneurial journey in terms of building momentum, it's great for content, et cetera, and the halo effect that we all recognize of our engagement is massive for your future on mindsets.  

Are you funding this yourself or have you got financial backers? 

John Hoyle: We have done four funding rounds. We are fundraising at the moment as well. This is our seed round where it's running for the next three months.

We're likely to have strategic partnerships with big asset managers who are invested and some retail groups. To date, it's been largely angels in the UK. There's a really vibrant ecosystem of angel investment in the UK because the government gives some great tax breaks called EIS. 

I'm curious if when you approach people if they give you when the tilted head looks or they get it quickly?

John Hoyle: I think as with anything that's new, there is a bit of adoption. So we find that for our first booking, we insist that there is someone in our sales or customer service team present to help people because there's an element of anxiety. It's a bit like if you organize a party for your other half or family member and you're a bit nervous about the caterers and are people gonna turn up, et cetera, then the party starts and you relax. We see that a lot from our first-timers, but we're at 40% repeat customers, and so for subsequent uses, when you know where it all lies, you know what to expect, it's much less stressful for people. 

It's just like your first day at the office when you don't know whether the photocopier works or what your password is, all of that becomes far less scary. So I think the answer is that onboarding involves more friction than we hope will ultimately be the case, and we are very much pushing the envelope of change. There is a bit of a learning curve, and then you see the penny drop and the opportunity. People's heads essentially explode with opportunities to do things that they could do because everyone's got an idea of how they might use a space like this more.

I'm a digital signage guy, so that's what makes me awfully curious about it. How fundamental were the digital screens to make this work? 

John Hoyle: Absolutely fundamental. So there is a business that is failing at the moment that I was a customer of. They are effectively a booking system for empty shops, and they're pioneers in many ways because they've pushed the idea of flexible occupation, but they really are no different from a normal real estate agent, and the problem with just being a booking system is that you don't provide any of the services that are absolutely essential to launching a shop.

They're renting an empty cavity. You gotta figure out the rest?

John Hoyle: Yeah, and if you do that, they'll only rent for a minimum of a week. You turn up. You spend the first day setting up, and the next couple of days, no one comes in because it's Tuesday or Wednesday. Maybe you have a launch event on Thursday. A few people pick it up a bit Friday or Saturday, and then it's over. You spent probably 15,000 pounds. You've had to buy all of this deeply unsustainable, both financially and environmentally stuff in order to facilitate the fit-out, and you've got nothing really to retain from a legacy perspective With ours, the digital screens are utterly fundamental because that's your fit-out. That's what gives you the environment. You can take that content, you can reuse it on your socials, and can reuse it in other Sook spaces. You can send your stock around. But we will provide essentially the entire platform to allow your Sook to take place without you, wherever else you want. 

Could you do these locations without the screens? 

John Hoyle: It would remove a USP of ours, and of course, there is sometimes demand, but what we are trying to do is a hundred percent occupancy, and a big part of that is out-of-home media. So when we're not actively booked, we can be a billboard for your screen, which is a super light touch. It can operate when shops are closed throughout the night and generate revenue.

It is a really powerful, utilitarian way of squeezing revenue out of latent assets, and obviously, an empty shop's just an empty shop, and you can't do any of that. 

Do you have a handle on what you're using for the displays? The screens are obvious, but, are you using a particular piece of software or…?

John Hoyle: You have to ask the AV guys. We've been through several iterations and in classic startup style we've tried lots of tools, we keep the ones that work, we discard the ones that don't and we're constantly iterating and I would describe that device upstairs, like a massive iPhone. Obviously, it's way less sophisticated than the iPhone today. But the principle is the same. Physically, it iterates just your Apple device and then the software behind it upgrades, but without you needing to change the device. So that is the process that we're constantly evolving. 

When did the first Sook open?

John Hoyle: I opened one in 2019 as the sort of first MVP in Cambridge, and then we won a few prizes straight off the bat because it had such success in Cambridge. 

Why Cambridge?

John Hoyle: That's where I live. I wanted to prove that there was demand, which we did, and enough so that Legal in General, the insurance company, and pension fund, gave us our first proper site in a shopping center in Cambridge, which we opened in January, 2020, but of course, we all know what happened a month later. We were pretty quiet op operationally throughout all of 2020 and quite a lot of 2021 for obvious reasons. But we emerged from the pandemic with this site on Oxford street, one on South Molton Street, and one in Edinburgh. So it was clear that we had identified a need from landlords and we've expanded.

Is it important to be on high streets like this, like really well-known ones?

John Hoyle: Yes and no. So at this stage in our business, the startup, people don't know what it is to your point, people wanna understand it and they wanna be in great places, and we have to prove that investing is a success, and then we can generate revenue. So it is really helpful being on Oxford Street as opposed to somewhere unrecognizable.

But our goal is for it to function everywhere and for it to be a platform where Nike can reach a customer in a place that is utterly undesirable from a profile perspective, but where there are still obviously many customers and we believe actually the impact in those places could be bigger, and you asked me earlier about whether the erosion of the retail market could affect us. Well, one of the things that brands will pay us for is the opportunity cost of being able to do this, which is often in less desirable retail locations with a much higher ROI for us than on Oxford Street.

I'll give you a good example. MasterCard used our space in the Metro Center, which is in the northeast of England, it's probably one of the least affluent areas in the UK. We're in big shops, bigger shops and regional shopping centers there, and they're paying us London prices in Newcastle for the opportunity to have those spaces. 

My dream is that there can be a Sook on every high street and it can address all of the community goals in the same way that maybe a town hall does, as well as being a state-of-the-art retail space for brands to dip in and out to engage with those customers and create a halo effect.

Because a fashion designer can be in Newcastle and, doesn't have to come here to launch?

John Hoyle: No, it's bigger than that. Why can't they be in New York or Dubai or Beijing? Stock light, you can use physical stock, but so much of it can be digital, purchases get made online, which through using QR codes, it's not necessarily about leaving with physical stuff, but if you are a global brand on a mission to scale, what a brilliant way of dipping your toe in the water.

And because there are so many empty sites, landlords love something that is gonna delight, that's going to be good for placemaking and community and that in some instances is more important than actually a business case for the space. It's a tool for asset managers to drive footfall into assets.

You see lots of distressed real estate where somebody's put in a gift shop or a calendar shop or whatever, and they don't have a lot of money and it just looks sad and it doesn't lift the street. It takes it down.

John Hoyle: Exactly. We wanna be the opposite of that. And I really believe that constant rotation of activity is the way to bring life back. Because you could have the coolest brand in the world in your unit, I always use the fashion apparel one, but maybe there's a better example of that, but if its peak hours are only on a Saturday, the rest of the week is to all intents and purposes in an empty shop. So it isn't adding anything to those high streets. 

But running up the costs. 

So how many Sooks do you have now?

John Hoyle: We've got 11. We want to double it next year, and part of that is reliant on fundraising.

We're also allowing some other systems to list on our site, and we have our first overseas site agreed upon in South Africa, Johannesburg. Got opportunities in the UAE, the US, Canada, and Europe. As you would not be surprised to hear, I'm just balancing the amazing demand we have for our product with a fundraising environment that's a bit tepid, thanks to all sorts of reasons, not least in the UK because of very recent economic turmoil, which is completely self-inflicted. 

Where is the business out overall, given what you just said about the economy and Covid?

John Hoyle: We doubled our sales last year on year. I'm really happy about that. 

But that would be in an anomaly year. 

John Hoyle: No, I think we will potentially quadruple it this year, and even if we don't add any more sites, we should double it again. The demand from global brands is through the roof. TikTok, Quikr,. Sonos, Universal Music Group, Uber, MasterCard. 

So they're finding you, even though you're a startup in most respect?

John Hoyle: They're finding us so that's incredibly encouraging.

My challenge is not having today, although I expect to rectify that in February, the capital really to run at so many of these opportunities. This is a brilliant time for a disruptor to emerge. The sector is on its knees, asset managers are desperate for a solution. We have a solution. It's proven. It can get better, it can get more exciting. The fit-out you saw upstairs can evolve dramatically, and in fact, there's a very exciting space that I'll point you towards up Oxford Street, which we hope to take over quite soon, that you should go and have a look at, which is really the next generation of what Sook could be even more immersive.

Could you have a larger, almost like the department store, level place with multiple shops, like there are lots of department stores that I've shops within shops now.

John Hoyle: Yes. So we've talked to two department stores about providing that service.

My personal view is that the department store model is inherently inefficient because you go to some amazing stores that I love in New York, like SHOWFIELDS which is the new age department store, and just like every other shop it has a peak and then a massive drop when no one's in there, and that just to me, as a utilitarian, who is very focused on the revenues that real estate assets can yield, just seems a bit mad. 

So the answer is yes, we could work in a department store, but we'd be in that instance much more beneficial to the department store than to us in terms of driving feet at times when they don't necessarily have customers. 

If people wanna find out more about your company, where do they find you?

John Hoyle: www.sook.space. Everything is on our website. We're at Sook Spaces on social media, across all channels. Follow me on LinkedIn. I'm John Hoyle, and yeah, tell the world about Sook because it is coming to a street near you.

All right. Thank you. 

Darren Wercinski & Kiersten Gibson, Reach Media Network

Reach Media Network has been around the digital signage ecosystem since 2005, and like many of the companies in this sector, its focus and strategy has evolved a lot based on customer needs and marketplace conditions.

The Minneapolis-area company got its start as a place-based media network, putting screens in venues on its own dollar, and making that investment back through ad sales. As pretty much anyone who's done a Digital Out Of Home network will confirm, ad sales is hard work, no matter the environment and audience.

Reach was generating real money from ad sales, but with a business focused first on screens in community ice hockey rinks, the network's growth potential was finite.

For the last several years Reach has been going to market instead as an end-to-end digital signage solutions provider, building up a pile of clients in sectors like corporate and health care ... and realizing reliable, recurring revenues from SaaS licenses.

Reach is seeing a lot of success, despite operating pretty quietly, by servicing the hell out of its customer base, and putting a lot of investment into software integrations.

I spoke with CEO Darren Wercinski and Kiersten Gibson, the company's EVP for Sales and Marketing.

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TRANSCRIPT

Darren and Kiersten, thank you for joining me. Can you give me the summary that you would rattle off when someone asked you what your company's all about? 

Darren Wercinski: Sure. Thank you for having us on the podcast today. We're excited to finally get to talk to you and share a little bit more about Reach. We actually started in 2005 and I feel really old as I tell stories today, thinking about sort of the company in general, but right now we have over 6,000 clients, and we manage around 30,000 screens. We really run the gamut, from large Fortune 500 clients, we do signage for Hormel, Caterpillar, and a lot of the big companies that you might be familiar with on a lot of college campuses so Northwestern, UCLA, and USC are all of our partners, and then likewise, I guess we've expanded a lot in the healthcare and Mass General and just a lot of industries and verticals. 

If you've been in the industry as long as we have, you definitely get customers for every vertical, but the company has about 50 team members right now, we actually have 10 open positions. So we're really growing and we tell this to a lot of our clients that we feel like we're in a sweet spot of just big enough to provide a robust digital signage solution with a budget that we can afford to invest in things, but at the same time, kinda that small focus on customer service and support.

Quite honestly, we've been in the industry so long, we've seen lots of things change. Dave, especially you’d know companies have come and gone. Business models have changed. Our own business model has changed and evolved. There's been consolidation in the industry, but as a whole, it's been a lot of fun. It's been a really great ride. 

So where do you start and stop in terms of your services? You've got a software platform. Do you do managed services, aftercare, or that sort of thing as well? 

Darren Wercinski: We would consider ourselves a full-service solution and what I mean by that is there are some signage companies or CMSs, and that's really what we are, that really focus on just downloading the software and you're good to go and go off and running. 

Ours is a little bit different because we do provide the end-to-end solution. So our clients may say, Hey, we want screens, players, the signage, we'll sell them all that and then in addition, we'll actually use install cords to get them up and running and trained. We'll use our own creative team to build all their layouts and assets and really get them up and running from that perspective, along with technical support that's unlimited and account managers help them along the way. That's the way we look at the business of providing that end-to-end solution, which is a little bit different than other people as well.

Is that an ask that you're seeing quite a bit in the marketplace? 

I get a sense and have for a few years now, that large companies are interested in digital science. They see the benefits and everything else, but they don't wanna fully manage it and they would really prefer to have an outsourced solution that says, “This is what we want, you guys to do it”?

Darren Wercinski: I wouldn't say we're an outsource solution. I think that our tool is so easy to use in terms of our content management platform. We try to make it so that clients can easily go in there and update and publish their content. Really, at the end of the day, that's all they really wanna do. So that's why we build the layouts for them, all the integrations, everything, and they can come in and easily manage the content. 

Kiersten, what are your thoughts on that? You deal most with the clients. 

Kiersten Gibson: Yeah, I would say, it boils down to the service and what the client’s looking for. As Darren said, we'll be as hands-on or hands-off as needed in terms of that implementation, getting them up and running, building out everything for them. 

In terms of the ongoing managed services, we're not necessarily creating the day-to-day content for them, but we are providing them with the support that they need. So for example, six months down the road, they might have a rebrand, or they might have a whole new group of users, or maybe their content is going stale and they want to get some automated applications into the signage, just so then maybe there's safety messaging or health tips or something like that that we can really assist with and provide that automated content.

So I would say it just runs the gamut of what the client's use case is and who they have managing it. I think that's one of the things we've learned, especially with these larger projects. If they don't have that from the beginning, it might be something that they implement in six months and that's where we come in. That's where that support continues to be unlimited and ongoing, and we provide that whole service solution. 

Darren Wercinski: I would say that reaches a very hands-on customer focused, client-focused company. We are here to help them. We're here to be flexible with their needs and I think that's really been part of our secret sauce in terms of adding a lot of clients across many industries.

Kiersten Gibson: Just the one thing to add to that, with really the shift from our business model, we are SaaS-based and that service at the end is really the thing that we focus on. As Darren said, it's the software, but it's also the service and we provide, both end-to-end solutions that way.

Yeah, I was gonna say that I've certainly run into companies through the years, software companies that are very good at sales, but it falls apart in aftercare. They close the deal and they're onto the next one, and they're not really paying much attention to their clients and as a result, you see a lot of attrition, a lot of churn, where end users have a contract with one company for three years, and as soon as that contract is lapsing, they're moving to somebody else because they're not seeing the kind of service they want.

Darren Wercinski: Yeah, I mean we love the fact that these companies keep getting bought up by private equity firms and the first thing they cut out is their support. Even though I know you got bought out by a private equity firm, our secret.

I'm on our support team, so… 

Darren Wercinski: But I mean that for us is good news because it's just that model, which is when consolidation happens, usually support is one of the things to go, and that's where we can differentiate ourselves against bigger competitors and say, listen, they might do some things. They might be bigger, but we're certainly gonna be better on the support side, and we've seen a lot of new customers come over from companies that have and industries that have been left out there and we've swooped in and one I can think of, we just took over Texas A&M from a competitor that was for a number of years and now it's a network of over 400 licenses and they seem really happy with the service and excited to keep expanding. 

I'm curious about that one in particular. We don't have to dig into it very much and cause any trouble, but I'm curious when they're making a switch, it's more about service and that sort of thing, as opposed to price, which used to be, and I guess still in the case in some situations where the reason why people switch is that they just wanna trim their budget.

Darren Wercinski: Yeah, and I definitely think that and I'll just say the names, I don't care, it doesn't matter. When we go do RFPs against Four Winds or AppSpace or even Spectrio to some degree, it does come down to price and we try to add both the value component and our software, the service component and the price component, we're certainly gonna be under those three in particular, and we try to bring that value equation and lots of references from our other partners who may have used those guys or others in the past, who say, Reach is a great option and they're a little bit less expensive and they frankly do a better job. 

I've been aware of Reach for many years now. It's been a little bit confusing because there's a whole bunch of companies out there that use the term ‘reach’ if they're associated with media in some way and of course, there’s RMG Networks, which confuses things for me. 

Darren Wercinski: We actually, at one time, this is very long ago, I think his name was Gary McGuire, correct me if I'm wrong, and so that's how long we've been around. And so we were actually working with Lifetime Fitness and Lifetime Fitness was both working with our Reach and Reach Media Network and RMG and we had even a legal at Lifetime Fitnesses send us each individual contract for the wrong company, so that's how confusing it was and stuff. So we've just been around a long time in space, but really in our roots and I think that's maybe where some people don't know as much about Reach or just our story. 

So we actually started out with Mark Klein, my business partner, and co-founder, this was years and years ago, so I think in 2005, we were thinking about a business model that could really attract in sort of the youth sports space and so I was working at Best Buy Corporate at the time in the strategy group, the one thing I realized was going to be a real challenge for Best Buy was the price of Plasma screens, if you can think that far back were gonna collapse. They knew this capacity was coming on in China. We knew the cost of screens was going down and so a $3,000 screen for 50-inch plasma was gonna go to $250 in two years or whatever the number was. 

I was thinking about that space. Mark really liked to use Sports space and we decided to actually go with an ad-based model where we would give, in this case, ice arenas, which are big in Minnesota, by the way, in Canada, as you know. We would provide them with the software and the technology that could show their locker rooms, and that was really their pain point because they used to have those white easel boards out that would show you like they'd write on them the locker room assignments. So we actually started and integrated with some software companies that would show the locker room assignments and we'd go out and sell basically local ads to really fund it and so that's how the company grew and grew.

Outside of Minnesota and Canada and a little bit on the East coast ice arenas just aren't really that big of a deal, and that's how we started expanding into other verticals, really more fitness-centric, so YMCAs, community centers et cetera, and we grew this ad-based market, and if you know anything about ads, and I think you do, especially in the digital signage, ads are certainly not bought, they're sold and it is a very grinding business. You're cold calling, you're relying on reps to really mow some commission base to go out and sell every year. There's not a huge high renewal rate on ads renewing every year. So that means you're going back into these same locations and trying to resell ads, and I'd say Reach has been a startup twice. So we actually built that business model just through ads and I'll say we think we had about a network of about 500 screens at the time.

We built it to about a 5 million local ad business, which in that space is pretty amazing. So I'm always indebted to our ad team who helped build that out. But really at that time, I could see the writing on the wall that, in terms of trying to scale that business, which is next to impossible and actually there were some other companies doing that as well, and about that time, we either got to the point that our good locations or ad locations, they didn't want ads, they just wanted to use our software, and they said, “Hey, we really love your software. We don't want the ads on the screen. Can we just pay you a fee?”

And I started thinking, yeah, that sounds great because it's that recurring fee, and at other times, we had ad locations that were terrible and in a bad part of town, or we couldn't sell ads, so we went to them and said, listen, we're gonna close this thing down unless you want to pay a fee and they said, sure, we'd love to, and so we slowly started transitioning our business model and we started getting into more colleges and just using our entire application to solve many of the use cases that we still have today. 

Do you do any digital out-of-home stuff now?  

Darren Wercinski: We do a little bit just because I'm so damn loyal to all those reps who've helped build the company. So we do still have a little bit of that business, but primarily it's almost everything is geared toward software as a service.

At one time, I'll say eight years ago for the platform we had about 20 reps, one IT guy, maybe one other support guy, and the rest were just grinding through ads, and so now we have almost 20 developers and IT people, we have a variety of different teams.

Kiersten, you could probably tell me more about how the company's changed over those years. 

Kiersten Gibson: Starting out with what Beer Pong lunches on Wednesdays with a group of 10 of us?

Darren Wercinski: Those were the good days. Those were the fun days, Dave, where you could just relax at lunch and play some Beer Pong and sometimes the problem was a Beer Pong extended from lunch into the afternoon, into the evening.

Kiersten Gibson: There's a lot more structure. 

Darren Wercinski: No, there are maybe some good stories.

Kiersten Gibson: Yeah, I was gonna say, definitely 10 years ago, that's when I started with the company, I sat next to our one developer. There was one support guy who also installed too. So we still installed the screens for these ad-based facilities, but, the one thing I would say, as Darren said, is we have 20 developers now from the one when I started, but then also just our customer success teams. We always knew that support obviously was a big component. We've always had at least one support person when the company started. But now we have just different customer success teams that we continue to build on.

As Darren said, our install coordinators are more or fewer project managers for that implementation. We have an account management team, we have a support team, we have a design team. We're building our marketing. So one of the things that are really exciting, especially what I've been involved in, is not only expanding our clients but building our partnerships, not only with our hardware providers but some of our integrator partners. Like Darren was mentioning with the locker room schedules and everything, just really expanding on that because at the end of the day, building their confidence with us is only gonna help build our client portfolio as well.

I found it interesting when you were talking about the locker room schedules, Darren. 

Going back to the mid-2000s doing data integration like that, and that's fundamentally what it was, was pretty rare. You would see it in airports on departure screens and so on. But that was pretty much it. So you were doing what I call boring signage, but boring being a good term, going way, way back. Is that still a substantial amount of what you do?

Darren Wercinski: The integrations are the key to our entire business, and that's how we also differentiate ourselves in terms of our integration. So it's a skillset and a capability that we built early on, and you're right, you have to think of a way that makes the signage actually useful to your end users and creates value to not only the people seeing your screens, but into the locations, and so they have something that people actually wanna see, and so in our case, our first hook was really around pulling and scheduling information, and we've expanded that into so many different areas. So our capabilities around the integrations are really key.

And I know Dave, I've seen in some of your other podcasts, or you even mentioned a little bit about the way you think that some CMSs are too generic in nature and that they should be industry-focused, and I agree with you in one respect, but I think on the other, you have to have a capability that's really meaningful to clients over time, that actually does give you some stickiness and the other thing I was thinking about and why you don't know as much about Reach is I think we took a little bit different path in terms of our own marketing and how we grew a lot of our clients, whereas some other CMSs may have just focused on going to the sort of the industry trade shows, which we went to as well, we would go heavy into a vertical trade show. 

So we would find a vertical we like, maybe it's churches or car washes, and we'd start hitting all these industry-specific shows. So we would be the only digital signage company that would be setting up a booth at these kinds of random verticals and it started to really grow because we'd be the only ones there, and you'd start to take on 10, 20, 40, 50 customers. So you develop some capabilities within these industries. So you'd become the car wash guy or you become the church guy, or you become this variety of verticals, and I think that really helped in our growth.

Now that we've expanded with so many clients, we don't do quite as much of that anymore, but it's really the way in which we navigated our client growth and our go-to-market strategy. 

Yeah, and I think that's really smart. I've written about that a few times, about companies that don't put all of their marketing eggs in the Infocom or the DSE basket. They show up at these weird little shows like airport technology or airport security conference. Yeah, and like you say, you're the one pretty girl at the dance. 

Darren Wercinski: Yeah, it's made a huge difference in terms of that, and I think that kinda gets back to our support too. When you start to build these relationships and people refer you and you grow your market space there. 

You mentioned, you're doing more work in hospitals and corporate, is that because you've focused on it, or is it just an area that seems to be growing?

Darren Wercinski: Kiersten is our EVP of Sales and Marketing, and she is the one that's really talking to the customers and has the most insight. I'm just the one that watches the sales come in, and smiles at the end of the month, hopefully. 

And yells at people if they don't come in!

Darren Wercinski: Yeah, that's right. I do that. Thank you, Dave. I like that. 

Kiersten Gibson: I would say in terms of hospitals and our corporate clients, it wasn't like we were going after that industry by any means. I always think of it as a use case. We could provide the same exact use case for a corporate company that we provide for a hospital, that we provide for education, and my examples always go back to say break rooms. So employee communications, it really doesn't matter which vertical you're in, that use case is pertinent to any type of industry. 

I think with Covid, that's where we saw the biggest uptick in corporate and healthcare for us, Mass General was one of the biggest ones that came to us pre-Covid and really working with their Head of IT to build the network within Partners Healthcare, which that's what Mass Journal is a part of. So that's just one example. But in terms of our corporate and employee communications, where we really started seeing it taking off again, going back to those integrations, we really focused on the integrations that were most common amongst our entire client portfolio. So one example is Power BI. We were one of the first CMSs to build a Power BI app that was easily authenticated by pulling their reports and dashboards, we built a OneDrive integration. We built Zoom, WebEx, and Teams integration. So all these are small integrations that they don't have to pay extra for, they can easily do it themselves. That is something, I think that's where we saw our corporate footprint really start to grow.

Darren Wercinski: The other thing that's funny about that, because I was on some of those calls, and I was thinking about the Power BI one in particular with the client and they're still our client, they've been with us for five or six years and they've grown quite a bit.

We were on the call, and they said, can you do this? And I'm eyeing my Head of IT. His name is Nate Davis. He's outstanding, our chief technology officer, and Nate's always great cuz he says there is definitely a way we can build this, how much it's gonna cost and how much time it's gonna take might be a different thing. But we ended up building this and I committed to the customer at the time, we're gonna get this Power BI app built and we built it in, I'll say four weeks or whatever. But it's a great application and that's kind of the way in which we go to market in terms of if our clients are asking for something and we think we can build it for them and then, and obviously leverage it to other clients as well, that is certainly something we will do to help win some deals and show that flexibility and our willingness to partner with our clients over time.

Is that why you have 20 developers? Because it seems like a lot of people for a relatively small company to be focused on development, but there's a lot of work to do those integrations, right? 

Darren Wercinski: There is, but that is twofold. One, we have a goal of doubling our revenue in the next two, basically two years. So we feel like we're in a really good spot. We're really aggressive now in hiring people and coming out of Covid and realizing the success that we've had and we'll continue to have. We really wanna hit the accelerator. So I've been spending a ton of money on the team. We're doing a giant CMS rewrite that we're spending almost $2 million on and we're all in to try and take the company to the next level, and I don't even mind telling people this, because it's just part of our vision, a year ago we were at $5 million in recurring revenue and. We had a great year last year and we expect to be at $10 million by the end of 2024. So those are some big aspirational jumps, but that's what we're going for.. 

And how is this being funded? Is it just out of your own revenues, or are you docked? 

Darren Wercinski: I guess I had some original investors. Thank you, mom, my uncle, and my cousins, but it's all been I just raised a little bit of seed money when I first started, this is 2005. We haven't raised money in, I don't know, 10 years, and I bought out a lot of the investors along the way. They literally put in $10,000-$20,000 bucks. It's a lot of money, but relatively speaking, it was small, but I've always focused on making money. So that's the one thing. I never wanted to be beholden to investors or banks or anybody else. I've never taken VC money because I had a vision for the company. I wanted to control it, and I was perfectly fine by the way, running on a path that was different from others, I was fine with incremental or continuous growth and making a profit at the same time and maybe that's why we didn't grow as fast as we could have because I had a budget and I stuck to it. But at the same time, I think it puts you in a much better position. 

When you're scrappy all the time, it forces you to do different things, and I'm not saying Kiersten and the team would call me cheap, would you ? Don't answer that! 

But I was very prudent, and I really wanted to invest in the things that I thought added the most were the most meaningful for our clients so support and, being flexible with them and trying to, provide free services, like creative and all these things that, that really add value over time. To answer your question, I think our paths have been a little bit different but certainly one, I won't go back on. 

Are you getting the phone calls and the emails and, how are you doing from private equity and VC people? 

Darren Wercinski: I do, but I don't respond, and it's been nonstop, and actually, so there are different stages in the SaaS company: if you can get to $1 million, you can grind out and do that. If you can get to the $2 to $3 million, that's a win, and when you get to $5 million, it's an interesting thing because private equity and some VCs, start to come hard because they like the model and it's working. They have a lot of cash available too, that's in the industry. So they're trying to make investments and do things. But for me, it was never really about the money or trying to sell. Obviously, we have had the company for almost 20 years, I love the employees. I love what we're doing. I think for me, resetting our goals of trying to double our revenue was really exciting because we also had to redo, we had to add staff. We're adding some new leadership right now in terms of a Customer Success Director to really manage the team and hopefully take our customer success to the next level, and so to me, the challenge is trying to grow that revenue and really redo things in a company and build in new processes that are gonna make us scalable to that $10 million bogey.

Put it this way, I'm not gonna be sitting on a beach and Nova Scotia with you, Dave, counting all the cash that you made. 

That's right. You wouldn't want to today anyways. It's snowing, although not as bad as it does in Minnesota.

I was curious, about one thing you said where you are doing a complete software rewrite, and is that kind of a nod to web services and everything that's emerging with technology right now where you can't just continually build out something, traces back in some respects to 2005. I know a company in the UK that built their platform in I think 2015 and by 2019 or so, they said, you know what, we're tearing it up and we're gonna rebuild just because they could see all the new capabilities out there. 

Darren Wercinski: There are two answers to your question.

One is: we were getting customer feedback which may have been great by the way. Our NPS score is super and we love that stuff they give great feedback every time that we can really use, and some of it was: It's a little hard to use now. It's a little clunky. It's a little this thing. We love your stuff, and we really needed to just take a look at our c m s and make it easier to use the challenge. So going back when you try and please every customer, you end up building a lot of one-off stuff along the way, and all of a sudden you look at your application, and yeah it's robust, but it's not exactly intuitive because you have to do X, Y, and Z.

And we built a lot of this stuff quickly to try and get those deals closed and build it out. So one first part was just, you know what? We need to refresh and reset and get more customer feedback and more UI and UX capabilities into our platform. So that was the trigger number one.

The second was: the industry's changing too, by the way. It's not just signage on a screen anymore. You have to be able to reach people outside of your traditional office setting or facilities, and so we've spent more time trying to make our application flexible so people from home can see our digital signage on their computers through teams or through websites digital signage, or just a more flexible approach to meet people because they're not always coming into the office anymore. And the communications team still wants to reach people. We just wanna be a more flexible platform to do that. 

Kiersten, do you have any additional thoughts on that? I know you talked to the clients quite a bit. 

Kiersten Gibson: I was gonna say, going back to when I started too, one thing you might not know about me, Dave, but Darren hired me as our project manager for our mobile application that he thought was really gonna take off

Darren Wercinski: You test and you'll learn, okay, Dave, you test and you learn and you evolve. I have no problem making mistakes, a lot of mistakes, and learning from them. 

Kiersten Gibson: So learning how to code without having a degree in coding was very interesting. But we did it. But no, I would say, one thing I've learned over the years is, we tried to add on all these additional solutions. What we learned was we can't be everything to everyone and really focus on what we're good at, which again goes back to that digital signage. But we do have these additional solutions we still support. The mobile app still brings us a decent amount of revenue. So our mobile application that employees can download to view more information, it can be, again, going back to those fitness centers, maybe they're viewing schedules, things like that. But what we've really tried to push people towards is, like Darren said, the website digital signage, where it's say, embedded in their intranet. 

So they can push the same messaging from their digital signage into the website. So remote employees can view the same messaging and it's right there too. So you're not expected to say it's a screensaver. It's not something that a particular employee can disable. It's something that they're forced to see because they have to go on their intranet every day. So I'd say that's what we've seen. It's just kind of an add-on to their digital signage network if you will. 

Are you finding that the average customer is more equipped with knowing what they want and how they're going to use it than in the past when, I'm sure, 10 years ago the conversations you had were just explaining what the hell digital signage was and I assume now that they know exactly what it is and they know how they wanna use it? 

Darren Wercinski: Yeah, if you think about it, I'll say even five years ago, we used to sell a hell of a lot more hardware in this all-in-one solution where we would sell them the screen, the media player, the installation, the mounts, we'd sell all because that's all they knew, and so over the last couple years, our hardware has gone way down, which is awesome because that's one industry we don't want to be in, and we're repurposing a lot of stuff. So we repurpose some competitors' players at times, we start to just sell more software and it's already set up as well where we're just replacing stuff that they have.

I am also curious about AI and how that plays a role in future development, or does it? 

Darren Wercinski: For us? Not really. I can't say that's been a question, I know there are other companies out there that actually do that. They may be more retail-centric or whatever. I wouldn't say retail's a huge industry for us because there are certain things that other companies do better than us. We have not spent any time really thinking about AI. We're really trying to focus on trying to expand our “reach” outside of the traditional office setting through those applications that Kiersten had just mentioned. 

Yeah, I know all the AI stuff for digital science to date has been focused on computer vision, but I could imagine all kinds of capabilities around content production, smart scheduling, smart triggering, and all that sort of stuff down the road. But it's still just evolving right now. 

Darren Wercinski: Yeah, and it's just a capability. As Kiersten mentioned, we can't be everything to everybody, and we're really trying sort of stick to that. 

Reach has been notoriously famous for creating applications that were about 80% done, we would get them to work, but we never really got that full implementation, and communication out to the client. So that's actually the one thing that I changed last year in terms of the beginning of 2022, maybe it's all my fault, but it was a direction we set where we really were trying to always, and now it’s like no, let's just hit the pause button, let's do things that are meaningful, let's say things that are purposeful that our clients are asking for, and that we can communicate back out.

And so that was one of the big shifts that we made at the beginning of last year, and to get user feedback, we would build stuff sometimes with basically never talking to our clients or assuming what they wanted, and then it would sometimes be right but sometimes be wrong, and so we really hit the pause button and changed our strategy around real development, and that's also why I think we added seven developers last year and just changed some processes. As I said, these are big investments in space. 

All right. This has been great. If people want to know more about your company, where do they find you online?

Kiersten Gibson: Yeah, you can find us on our website. There is a contact us form that they can fill out to learn more. So our website is reachmedianetwork.com 

As opposed to the four or five other Reach Medias that you'll find if you Google it? 

Kiersten Gibson: Reach Media Network Digital signage.

Darren Wercinski: You know what's funny? One last thing is we were actually BroadSign's second or third customer, just to give you a sense of how long we've actually been in the space. RIP Brian Deseo because I was sorry to hear that. But I remember working with Brian and they were actually out in Idaho at the time, that's how long ago it was. But I just thought about it, thinking about the company and our journey over the years to see Broadsign where they're at and where we're at. But we actually were the second or third customer way back in 2000. 

Back in the day, yeah. All right. Thanks again for taking the time with me.

Darren Wercinski: Appreciate it, Dave. We look forward to seeing you at your next party. 

Kiersten Gibson: Thanks, Dave. 

Brian Nutt, Adificial

The 16:9 PODCAST IS SPONSORED BY SCREENFEED – DIGITAL SIGNAGE CONTENT

There have been a few companies that have come along in recent years offering a platform that used templates, image library and stored data to largely automate the production of videos - but few if any of them had their heads wrapped around how that might work with and for digital signage networks.

A Louisville, KY start-up is taking a run at the concept, and the big difference with Adificial is that its CEO and co-founder started and ran a digital signage software company for many years ... so he has his head around the desire for content automation when it comes to videos that find their way to screens.

Some listeners will know Brian Nutt as the founder of Codigo, which had built up a strong and interesting business focused mainly on regional banking. That business was acquired in 2018 by Spectrio, which now also owns and publishes Sixteen:Nine, and Brian spent a few years away from the business, before thinking about and pulling together Adificial. It's a platform that uses web services and the scalability of cloud computing to enable HTML5-driven motion media files to be generated quickly and easily, by the hundreds or thousands. At scale, a motion file unique to a person or place can cost only pennies.

Nutt is a digital signage guy, but he's launching Adificial with a focus on media embedded in staff and customer emails. That makes sense, as the idea is that this platform can generate many thousands of custom videos for emails, versus the dozens or maybe hundreds that might be needed by a digital signage network that wants different messaging for, let's say, each store in a chain.

But the capabilities are there to make this relevant for digital signage. Have a listen.

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TRANSCRIPT

David: Hey, Brian. Thank you for joining me. For people who don't know you or maybe recall you from your past, can you give me your background and what you were doing with Codigo? 

Brian Nutt: Sure and great to talk to you again, Dave. Codigo was a digital signage company that I founded back in around 2004, so set up kinda early on in the trajectory of digital signage. That morphed into us introducing a number of different retail media products, interactive kiosks, overhead music, on-hold messaging, all that type of, and we had a focus on financial institutions, really, like regional, local banks and credit unions. Although towards the end there, when I sold Codigo in 2018, we had installations around the world and all sorts of different industries from restaurants, universities, office complexes, and all the places that you would see a digital sign installed today, or retail media, as I said. 

Did that and sold that in 2018, took a few years off and launched this new project which is pretty exciting. 

David: So what is Adificial? 

Brian Nutt: Yeah, so Adificial really began I guess in terms of me thinking about this back before I sold Codigo, so Codigo and I think like a lot of digital signage products, at least today, maybe not back then, but we had the pretty robust online content engine for creating content that could be either sent down to a kiosk or digital signage or any of the devices, whether it was on-hold messaging or any of those things, you could create the content on the web, and so I had this idea that might be an exciting product as a standalone product.

We never launched it, and it's probably a good idea because folks like Canva came along, and Promo and these other products came along, and they did a pretty good job so I’m glad I didn’t do it, but after little time off, I was still thinking about the product and just how video is forcing businesses to do things differently, and this requirement today to personalize content for folks that are your customers or are interested in the product.

So the idea of an Adificial is to solve the problem that's traditionally been around video, which is, it's expensive, it's time-consuming and yet the requirement of it by consumers continues to race forward daily, and then the age today where data, people are willing to share their data with brands freely and why is video passive still? Why is it that it's audience-based where I press play and I watch it and Dave gets the same video as I do, even though we have totally different lives and we live in different spots and have different ages and all those things. 

It's this idea that you can make videos personalized with data. What I know about you, I should be able to map brand assets, audio, video, and language even, and insert interactive elements, calendar invites, pdf, downloads, buttons, and anything like that into the video. So it's fully interactive and engaging in ways that just really haven't been largely available and at reasonable rates.

David: So this is a content automation platform? 

Brian Nutt: Yes. I would wrap it up by saying we're not in the marketing automation space. We're not trying to compete with Mailchimp or anything like that, what we're trying to do is automate the production of the video with data and available assets and return that piece of content back to the market automation platform that would then send it out, primarily via email, although I can see this transition to social and SMS in any other way that you communicate to consumers. 

David: So if I'm running a digital signage network, and I have a hundred different stores and I want a video for each of those stores, but I want it localized to each of those stores, instead of getting an agency or in-house designer to generate a hundred different videos, you would run it through this and it would use data to generate those hundred videos?

Brian Nutt: That's a decent comparison, but this product's really not built for digital signage. So imagine a little bit bigger than that. You know the value of data on your consumer today is tremendously high. So if you have a CRM that has 10,000 people that are either current customers or leads or somewhere along the customer journey.

What we do is we could produce videos for all of them and you insert video into your marketing stack, into the customer journey and send it out via email. 

David: Oh, okay. Are the files not big enough to run on a large format screen? 

Brian Nutt: They could, and in fact, when I initially started this, the idea was to send content to any device, but we've narrowed that down and focused on market automation platforms. But there's no reason it couldn't morph into a digital signage play. It’s just not today. 

David: Right, because there's more scale in those and it's just a bigger business. 

Brian Nutt: Yes. 

David: So it's one of those things like Poppulo, App Space, and some of these other companies that are starting to blend platforms, where it's one stock that can send to a digital screen, that can also send to a smartphone, to a tablet, to a website, whatever. It would kind of plug into that kind of thing. 

Brian Nutt: Yes, and here's the other reason that I've gotten into this, and I'm a huge believer in power digital signage, obviously. But at Codigo, our growth was really built around this incredible drive to build more stores, more locations, more branches in the banking space, and so we leveraged that and grew off that and really benefited from it. But today what's happening is, in fact, I was looking just recently, they're suggesting that in the next five years, 50,000 retail stores will close.

Since 2009, when we were going into the great recession, banks and credit unions numbered about 15,000 total, that's not branches. Today, there are about 7,000. So it's this consolidation and push not including the number of locations that close during the pandemic, what 20,000 retail stores, something like that. 

So what's happening, in my opinion, is the store or branch does a couple of things. One, it's meant to educate a person in person on the product, build trust, and sell products. But if stores are closing, people aren't going to the store, how do you communicate to them personally and to me, the conversation today is done in data. If I'm willing to give a brand my data, trust them with that, even if it's unreasonable. I'm not going to the store. I never wanna meet a person that's going to tell me about a shoe or a bank loan or whatever, but that doesn't mean I don't expect you to communicate back to me with things that are specific to me, to help me learn about products, build trust, and ultimately sell me something. So that's taking it from the digital science in-store installation, that's the next progression of what we're trying to solve. 

David: It's another output. 

Brian Nutt: Yeah, exactly. 

David: So how does this work?

Brian Nutt: I guess, where do you want me to start? It did take quite a while to figure it out honestly. You start with this gigantic idea and then try to distill it down into something actionable. So that's where we are now. 

But at the finest level, it's really not that dissimilar from digital signage. It's just one level deeper in how you're delivering the content, so you know the right time, right place, right person, all those things. And a large well of content that's either procured the third party ShutterStock, et cetera, or first party to the brand and then using technology to map these pieces of content to data, and data could be something like just knowing your name and having it be, “Hello Dave”, and so if the first name equals Dave, then show the text Dave on the first screen and if language equals Spanish, say, “Hola Dave”, and that's really what it is. 

It's mapping data smartly to assets, no matter whether it's something as simple as text or a background image or a video, things like that, and then you stitch those together based on where you are in the process towards, or whatever it's you're involved in. It could be something like onboarding an employee. It could be obviously selling someone, onboarding them on a product, or following up with a customer service issue, and you do it at scale. Because you can automate it. 

David: So if you have the data tables, you have the image assets, and you have maybe some core templates, you could conceivably generate 10,000 videos that are all tailored to each individual?

Brian Nutt: That's exactly right. 

David: Are you dependent on templates?

Brian Nutt: Again, it’s very similar to digital science in many ways. So what we're doing, just like we did at Codigo, is leveraging a high degree of design skill and allowing folks to manipulate that as they choose. Now we've done a couple of things a little smarter this way, which is we're building in functions where we call it a branded function, which I guess is kinda out there in the market in software where you just click a button and it'll map your brand assets the best it can to template that we're building, but the same thing with Codigo is that we have a pretty high-end content editor that allows you to build whatever you want. 

David: Do you need to have graphic design skills?

Brian Nutt: Not a high degree of them. As I said, it’s very similar to what we did at Codigo from a user experience perspective.

David: So you wanna have somebody using this who has some core design chops and knows not to use Comic Sans for a font, or use pink and everything? 

Brian Nutt: Exactly. I can barely sign my name much less, create a piece of content that's gonna be sent out to thousands of consumers and I'll never do that. But the thing about this is not the design skills. It's meant to be, the whole set it and forget it attitude, which is once we have content mapped and I have the data that's associated with different pieces of content, and I have the story, we call it a story setup, and maybe I'll give you an example:

If they use a CRM and I have David Haynes who showed interest in Red Wine and you wanna join the wine club, the Friday Wine Club at the local wine establishment. So you show interest in that, and in their CRM you meet a condition that says, “Hey, Dave just joined the wine club” and what traditionally happens is when you meet that condition, you're sending an email and the email says, “Hey Dave, thanks so much for your interest in the wine club”, and it's got a picture or something of it, there, and maybe it shows people what the wine club. Well frankly, that's boring.

So what we wanna do is take that same approach and it's all that is: a form, it's all merge fields. “Hello, first name” - it just that it happens to be Dave. “Thank you for your interest in Product ID” - wine club, or whatever that it might be. Brian might be a white wine drinker, but it all comes from the same engine, so it's effectively a similar approach. We're taking data from those systems, current systems, we're not trying to be a CRM and mapping that to assets that we have, whether they're the first party to this, in this case, the wine club or something that we've provided you from a third party library, and then turning that into video, right? Stitching each of these assets together with dynamic fields that represent, “Hey, Dave, thanks for your interest in the wine club. All the red wine drinkers are meeting down the road on Friday afternoon. Come by. Would you like to attend?” You could click yes. 

David: Gotcha. So this is rules-based, it's not AI? 

Brian Nutt: Today, no. 

David: So there's a plan?

Brian Nutt: There's a grand plan. 

David: So what are the outputs like? What's the output file? 

Brian Nutt: The output file as well as a URL, and so what we're generating is a PURL, a personalized URL. 

David: So it's not an mp4, it's not a video file of any kind, it's an HTML5 file?

Brian Nutt: Yes. 

David: Do you work in parallel with a CRM system or how do the two platforms play together? 

Brian Nutt: Yeah, now we're going to beta in February. Today, there are a number of different ways to do it. You can either upload it yourself or you can, there are a number of systems that can automate the transfer of data, like Zapier, et cetera.

And you map these just like anything else. If you have a list of people that meet conditions, like the Red Wine Club, you take that data and get it to our system. As long as we understand what the fields are, then we can choose the correct content to weave together and return it back to you as a PURL, which can then be sent out as an email.

David: How seamless will it be? 

Brian Nutt: It should be very seamless. Take any system, let's take Mailchimp for example. There are custom fields and automation that allow you to insert links into an email template or a landing page. So we're routing on top of those existing systems and the features that they have and so once you have that, you can have a custom record for each person, like Dave O'Brien or whomever that updates itself, and when those conditions are met, it knows to send the email. 

David: So would you use APIs or would you use middleware like you were mentioning like Zapier? 

Brian Nutt: That's the first way to do it. Oddly in the financial space, it's more of a security requirement. Rather than doing that, oftentimes I'll just use SMTP, which seems old school, but there are reasons to do so, like man-in-the-middle attacks, and things like that. But there are ways to do this. Now, do we wanna integrate with as many systems as we possibly can? We'll let the market dictate that. 

David: Because it's HTML5, is it responsive? 

Brian Nutt: Responsive to the size of the device? Is that what you mean, like web responsive? 

David: The screen resolution, and if it's going out on Facebook, it's a 4:3 square and if it's going out on a larger screen, it's a 16:9 rectangle? 

Brian Nutt: Yeah, again, it's very similar to the product we had with Codigo, which is, you can do custom resolutions, you can do whatever you want, but then again, it's gotta be responsive to the area of the device, or in this case, the browser, whether that's mobile or your laptop or tablet or whatever. 

David: So when you look at this from financial aspects, what's the benefits argument of doing this versus producing individual videos? It's pretty obvious, but tell me nonetheless. 

Brian Nutt: As I said, producing videos is incredibly expensive, and I've termed it the content gap, which is what I call, it's the distance between what consumers require in video - and they want everything in the video - and what businesses can reasonably produce. So it's not just the cost, a lot of times people outsource this stuff, and then it's got a shelf life. 

But with what we're doing we think we can reasonably produce hundreds of thousands of videos, for pennies on the dollar, and I say video because that's what people understand, but it’s actually HTML that you render, that's the other component that is good. It's favorable.

Now, will that be something that every brand wants? Do they want rendered videos? Sure, there might be folks that require rendered video, and maybe we'll do that at one point we actually did, at Codigo, we ended up using a very similar approach. Then we built a rendering engine that rendered as HTML5 to true video. But today it's HTML5 and it's just from hosting to production to the delivery of it, it drives the cost down to prices that were impossible.

David: So when you go to market in a couple of months, two or three months, what am I paying? Am I subscribing to something? Am I buying an enterprise license?

Brian Nutt: It's a SaaS model, and it's usage-based too. So it's a tiered-based model similar to the digital signage space, there definitely be some content creation elements to it where we assist clients if they need the content made, and you probably remember at Codigo we did that as well. It’s the same approach here, and it really depends. It's hard to give you a specific pricing point. But I think most customers will probably land somewhere between $500 and $1500 a month. That's where I think it would be. It could be far higher, depending on usage. 

I was at a trade show recently and there's a customer of mine, who said that they sent out emails last month. Well, If you make 140,000 videos, it might be a little higher, but that's what we're trying to do, we're trying to do the same thing as the last business, which may get a very attractive price that they can leverage. 

David: So that's the scale argument why it makes more sense for a cable company or a phone company or power company, something like that, that has tens of thousands of subscribers and customers versus something like a digital signage network, which as I said, might have a hundred iterations of a similar ad, and you don't get the same economies of scale from.

Brian Nutt: That's right, and in a lot of ways I feel like this is very similar to when I started Codigo. I remember telling people, I'm going to replace printed posters on the wall with flat screens, and they're like, what? And I'd say it's called digital signage. They'll say, oh, you mean like those LED, those red blinky lights that go across like that? I'm like no. That's not what I mean, and I would go around with a 42-inch screen, and those things were heavy, and so it's almost the same thing where I have to show this to everyone so they can understand this, and go oh I can use this. There are all these different permutations of a relationship with a client or an onboarding of one or whatever it is and then they kinda get it so that's where we are.

David: Yeah, that's very familiar to me. Years ago, back in the mid-2010s, I had a little spin-out product that I did with a Korean partner called Spotamate, and it was automating videos based on templates and by far my biggest challenge was education. Because people just couldn't wrap their heads around it. So how are you gonna deal with that? 

Brian Nutt: I think that today, the state of the consumer today around video is totally different, and the other thing is that I think Spotimate was sort of Adobe-reliant, right?

David: Yeah, it was an Adobe plugin. 

Brian Nutt: Yeah, so we're skipping all that. So from a user perspective, it makes it a little easier to get started, since it’s a lot fewer steps to take, but from an education standpoint, I think people are starting to expect this. It's like if you log in to Netflix and you see all these interesting shows that you know, that makes you think, oh, wow, boy, that's something I would watch, you understand that there's a data-driven decision behind that, and whether it's content while you're scrolling through on Instagram or across the web, all these technologies exist and I feel like most folks understand that when they see something like this, they get it, where before it might have and it still can be creepy. I'm not saying it can't be, but depending on the use, before it was perceived entirely like that. 

With the pandemic and, if you go back before the pandemic, or let's go five years back, a lot of people didn't wanna take videos. They didn't wanna do a zoom call or whatever. They wanted to do it on the phone or they shut off their camera. But today, if I have a Zoom call with you and you don't turn your camera on, I think something's wrong. What's going on? So it's this drive to video and the requirement of a personalized experience that when people get this, I think they'll be like, oh yeah they'll understand. 

David: So I realized, as you've said that your core market is email marketing, maybe social media, some of those things. If you have digital signage, software platforms, or solution providers who are interested because maybe they do this whole omnichannel thing and they see this as an opportunity, how would they work with you? Would it run in parallel? 

Brian Nutt: That's a sort of broad question to ask. I'm not sure I don't have that nailed down yet. But I'd take all inquiries, so to speak. Because again the idea is to insert this into the marketing stack. So whether it's digital signage or traditional email marketing, or any omnichannel approach, as you said, contacting a customer, why aren't you using video? And so it does seem as I said from my perspective, the growth of digital signage, which isn't anywhere, relies on footprint and as it declines or appears to decline at least from different ways. This is one of those ways to pick that up. 

David: Yeah, and I think you're gonna start seeing a lot more screens, but in places other than what people thought about, which was, in stores and so on, but there are all kinds of operational messaging that could stand to be personalized based on location, not personalized to individuals, but to the dynamics of that, area of a building or whatever.

Brian Nutt: Sure, and the same thing holds true. The level of personalization is all really based on the quality of the data that you have and if you try to make it too deep and too complicated, folks I think will shy away because, yeah, it might not be possible, remember, it's the same thing with digital signage. You can make things super, super complex, and try to do all these really neat things, but the reality is a lot of people don't have that capability.

So you can only deal with what is reasonably available to you from a data perspective, but there's no reason you have to be specific to a person. Obviously, digital signage doesn't do that but automates it specific to an area, of the work floor, or whatever that's doable.

David: You've been out of digital signage for roughly four years now. I'm curious now having kinda left the industry, what's your perspective on it now? 

Brian Nutt: I think there has been a tremendous amount of consolidation, including me, right? So a lot of the players that existed before have been rolled up in some ways. So it's like the wild west that existed when I really was looking back in the wild west, but it's gotten a little more sterile, at least that's my opinion. I think that the interesting pieces of it are in the hive stack arena with retargeting and programmatic ad buying, which I was never a really big proponent of the ad model. I think we talked about it before, but there are interesting ways to serve content and that's really more, kinda what, where you're going with what your comments were before, how do you serve that content to folks in a unique and timely way, and I think there will be, and there already has been this approach to multi-device from a screen, just one big screen, but honestly, since I got out, I haven't paid a tremendous amount of attention to it. 

David: What you're doing is very current in terms of the shift more and more to using data integration and automated content so that it's always relevant, so you're doing what the industry's doing.

Brian Nutt:  All right, there you go.

David: So if people wanna find out more, where are they gonna find you online? 

Brian Nutt: Yeah, it's www.adificial.io - we're signing up beta users, although it'll be a closed group and already have a pretty good number that we've signed up from some past relationships.

But anybody who's interested, just go on there and there's a beta sign-up little form there, and you can learn about it.

David: And you're bootstrapped? 

Brian Nutt: Yeah, bootstrapped in entirety. I've got one co-founder who was actually with me at Codigo as well, and we've got a team of six developers working on this thing full-time and are pretty excited about it.

David: All right. It was great to catch up with you. 

Brian Nutt: Yeah, you too, Dave.